Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk Philosophy and Religion Forums

A rather worrying report in this mornings Guardian newspaper.

39 Police Forces across the UK provided numbers of incidents reported to them under the Freedom Of Information Act, showing that 2823 incidents were reported to them in 2010. 13 Forces did not provided figures but it is estimated that there were another 500 incidents which involved the Police in those areas.

These figures show an increase of 47% of this type of crime in the UK.

I would expect this trend to continue if we can believe Shafique's figures of zillions of women converting to islam in the UK each year.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/dec/0 ... -uk-rising

What does this has to do with Islam??

Yosef wrote:What does this has to do with Islam??

Did you read the article?

Here is a quote

When I was 16 my mum came into my room one day and said I had to get married to my cousin in Pakistan. I was horrified: I wanted to go to college and get a job, and I didn't even know him, how could I marry him? But when I said no, my mum slapped me across the face.

After that I wasn't allowed out. My family treated me with , as if I had shamed them. My father, mother, even my young brother, beat me on a daily basis. My body was covered in bruises.

I wasn't given any food for days on end, and I tried to take an overdose on several occasions. I just used to sit on my bed from morning to night. Prison would have been a better place.

After around a month, they let me go out to the doctor. Terrified, I sat in the toilet and called a solicitors' firm. I've not seen my family since that day. A wonderful solicitor got me a place at a refuge and a forced marriage protection order.

But I'm still constantly paranoid: I'm always looking over my shoulder. I've lost everything. And I'm scared of what will happen if they find me.

The request for Information came from the Iranian and Kurdish Womens Rights Organisation.
Now tell me this article isn't about Muslim women.

I don't think it's about islam or religion in general it's about stupid traditions that are not compatible with a modern and civilised society.

These kind of traditions related to honour and marriage were common in europe once.

Andyba wrote:These kind of traditions related to honour and marriage were common in europe once.

It was also popular opinion around the same time that the world was flat and dragons lived beyond the horizon, but thankfully, some cultures have evolved since then and now know better.

If the practice is so unislamic then can anyone explain why the perpetrators in the UK are predominately muslim?

Dillon wrote:If the practice is so unislamic then can anyone explain why the perpetrators in the UK are predominately muslim?

I think that is because Pakistan etc. where the general level of education is quite low and old traditions are still strong happens to be a Muslim country. I know that arranged marriages are practiced in India as well. I talked once to a Hindu guy that was going home to marry someone he didn't know. I asked him how he feels about it, he said it's ok, if he really does not like the girl he can say no... but can the woman say no if she does not like the guy...? I think it depends on the specific family traditions, and not on religion.

Until recently in villages of some European countries the just married had to put a bed-sheet spotted with bride's blood to protect the honor of the family... I say, villages, because big cities changed all this family honor nonsense, in big cities nobody cares. Also television, Internet and sexual revolution influenced the change in culture and it happened not so long ago.

As a matter of fact today in Europe and other countries even the most intelligent people follow a very old and in my opinion a horrible and obsolete tradition daily... but it's a subject for another thread.

Andyba wrote:As a matter of fact today in Europe and other countries even the most intelligent people follow a very old and in my opinion a horrible and obsolete tradition daily... but it's a subject for another thread.

What is it? I'd be interested to know in case I'm missing out on something exciting.

As for honour killings in the UK, being a UK resident I think I'm safe to say that this prctice is carried out when Muslim girls, and sometimes boys, step out of line. I can't say I've heard of anyone else carrying out this punishment.

Andyba wrote:I don't think it's about islam or religion in general it's about stupid traditions that are not compatible with a modern and civilised society.

These kind of traditions related to honour and marriage were common in europe once.

Andy, it's happening NOW, the 21st Century, in the UK, not Pakistan (although it continues and is the "norm" there).

If people migrate and cannot assiimilate to the laws and lifestyle of the country they have chosen to migrate to, then go back to your country where cultural practices that are held near and dear to your everyday life, are acceptable. Didn't people migrate at one time for a better life? Teenagers are impressionable. She was exposed to "western" lifestyle and culture and adopted both and the ways of the old culture were totally opposite from the culture that she grew up in. If you don't want your children to "catch" western lifestyle and culture, ship them back to the old country and while you are at in go with them.

Dubai says I can't show public affection to Mr BB in public, something that people don't think twice about in the States. So as not to offend and basically follow the law in DUBAI we don't show public affection. In the US, and I'm sure the UK, to slaughter an animal in front of our home is against the law and one can be arrested for cruelty to an animal. That's a common practice in some countries. Different laws for different people.

I think that very much was made of this going on over the years because the UK needed to be "politically" correct. It was in the last few years that the US discovered this new phenomenon taking place. I wonder how many girls were "sent back home" and are actually six feet under?

I found this interesting:

But this is likely to be only the tip of the iceberg, campaigners say, as so many incidents go unreported because of victims' fears of recriminations.

Jasvinder Sanghera of victim support group Karma Nirvana said the real figure could be four times as high.

Good for that girl. To her it was worth giving up her parents than to allow them to give her away or abuse her because she had a different idea as to how she wanted her life to be. She had a plan for her future, to go to college. Obviously that wasn't the plan for the parents.

Yes BM, the UK had better hire more police in anticipation of the gazillion more girls (and boys?) that will be punished one way or the other for wanting a life.

If religiosity isn't a component in Muslim honor killings, then are secular Muslims carrying out honor killings just like their devout coreligionists?

And honor killings in the Muslim world cross cultural barriers as the article shows - honor killings happen in Pakistan, Kurdistan, Iran and now they're taking place in UKistan.

"As noted by Christian Arab writer, Norma Khouri, honor killings originate from the belief that a woman’s chastity is the property of her families, a cultural norm that dates back to 1200 B.C. , under the rule of Hammarabi and other Assyrian tribes." [21]
from Wikipedia

1200 B.C. there was no Islam.
It's just an old tradition, I don't protect it. I hate stupid and old traditions. I just say that it may not be related to Islam, at least not directly.
I think that there are many converted faithful muslims in US and UK that would never even think of forcing marriage on their children or relatives. So it must be something else, not Islam per se.

We discussed this very topic not so long ago:
dubai-politics-talk/justice-served-american-islamic-honor-killing-t46384.html#p376120

This quote backs up what Andy and others are saying above.

'Tradition, not religion'

None of the world's major religions condone honour-related crimes.

But perpetrators have sometimes tried to justify their actions on religious grounds.

"Honour crime happens across the board in the Asian community," says Ram Gidoomal of the South Asian Development Partnership.

"People try to blame Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs but it tends to happen in families where there are the strongest ties and expectations. It's a very strong cultural issue."

Leaders of the world's faiths have also strongly denounced a connection between religion and honour killings.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/honourcrime ... ur_1.shtml


(Oh, and just in case eh is confused - Islam does not condone honour killings, neither do I. All those who kill their kids for this 'crime' should indeed be at least locked up!)


Cheers,
Shafique

Well, by that logic, charity and prayer have nothing to do with Islam since they both existed prior to Islam's founding.

But anyone would laugh at you if you said squatting five times towards Mecca has nothing to do with Islam.

In the case of Muslim honor killings, many are pointing there is an aspect of the honor/shame culture linked to religion - otherwise secular Muslims would be killing their family members at the same rates as the holy rollers.

"People try to blame Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs but it tends to happen in families where there are the strongest ties and expectations. It's a very strong cultural issue."

Pray tell, what culture do Kurds, Arabs, Iranians, Pakistanis and Africans have in common other than religion?

eh, you like to flog dead horses don't you?

As asked in the other thread - what reason do Sikhs and Hindus etc have for carrying out honour killings? It can't be Islam.

The answer is given above - it is cultural.

I really can't see why you should be confused over this point. You can't deny that Sikhs and Hindus carry out honour killings, or can you?

Cheers,
Shafique

What Sikhs and Hindus do is irrelevant as to what Muslims do.

Sikhs and Hindus also pray, have dietary restrictions and go on pilgrimages.

Are you saying praying, dietary restrictions and pilgrimages in Islam, Sikhism and Hinduism are cultural rather than religious?

Pray tell, your logic is too astonishing for me to comprehend.

Btw,

what cultural values do Kurds, Arabs, Iranians, Pakistanis and Africans have in common other than religion?

So why do Sikhs and Hindus carry out honour killings?

Why isn't the SAME reason they do it not apply when Muslims from the same country and cultural background carry out the same crime?

Why avoid the simple question?

Cheers,
Shafique

Sorry, I haven't made an absolutist claim on honor killings.

I said religion (Islam) plays a role in honor killings and made the point that honor/shame culture, honor attacks and religiosity are intertwined.

You've claimed that religion has nothing to do with honor killings but have so far avoided addressing the obvious points made above; such as religion linking honor attacks throughout the Muslim world and that pious Muslims (not secular) are carrying out honor attacks, often in the name of religion.

I just asked you what reason Sikhs and Hindus had for carrying out honour killings, and why these same reasons don't apply to honour killings carried out by Muslims? Why the evasiveness?

Did you read the extract quoted above? Did you notice how it said honour killings have nothing to do with religion?

Why the epidemic of denials these days eh?

Cheers,
Shafique

This act is related to traditions and culture. It has nothing to do with religion, atleast Islam.
Having people who practice this bad habit being Muslim, does not give anyone the right to accuse Islam.

What is the difference between ignorant people here blame Islam for the dark side of some cultures, than people who actually practice it?!?
In Syria we witness honor killing from Christians, but I never heard someone blame Christianity for that.

Andyba you summed it up. Thank you

event horizon wrote:Well, by that logic, charity and prayer have nothing to do with Islam since they both existed prior to Islam's founding."

Are you saying that most Charity and prayer in the world is caused by Islam?

The perpetrators of honor killings are in vast majority muslums. The reason it has to do EVERYTHING with islam is simple and Not just because these crimes are committed by muslums:
In islamic countries, hence under sharia law, (islamic law) muslums who get convicted of honor killing (when they get convicted) get very light sentences, 6 months at the most, out of jail after 2. Syria, Jordan, palestine. a slap on the hand for murder, who would get otherwise at least 25 to life in the UK and in the US.
If it had nothing to do with islam, like certain defender of islam like to claim, these criminals would get stiff prison sentences. but sharia law does not provide stiff sentencing for honor killing, therefore it supports it .
Another reason why muslums somehow are lenient and forgiving toward honor killings, is that the language is biased from the start, why do they call it honor killing. a murder is a murder, and it should be called a murder. calling it honor killing is somehow downgrading the felony.
I d like to hear muslums, saying that it is murder and the offenders should life in prison, not a slap on the hand.
In the US, there is no honor killing, only murders, and the offenders get punished in full.
in the UK, muslums start getting away with it, with the UK courts being lenient with the offenders.

You are right about Syria, but:

11 January 2011, Syria has ordered the sentence for those convicted of honor killings tripled to between five and seven years.

Activists say some 150-200 women are killed every year in Syria by their relatives in order to preserve conservative tribal notions of family honor.

Concerned people say it's an old tribal notion.

And as I wrote previously it mostly takes places in villages, it's an old cultural heritage.
"Honor killing in Syria mostly takes place in rural areas."

source:
http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?q=node/5203

Andyba wrote:You are right about Syria, but:

11 January 2011, Syria has ordered the sentence for those convicted of honor killings tripled to between five and seven years.

Activists say some 150-200 women are killed every year in Syria by their relatives in order to preserve conservative tribal notions of family honor.

Concerned people say it's an old tribal notion.

And as I wrote previously it mostly takes places in villages, it's an old cultural heritage.
"Honor killing in Syria mostly takes place in rural areas."

source:
http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?q=node/5203

This topic is about the result of the request for information from the UK Police about reported honour crimes against women in the UK. It is not about what takes place in some rural villages in Syria.

Where the Uk Police Forces are able to compare their figures, they are reporting a 47% increase in reports of violence to women under honour crimes.
This is a very worrying statistic.
I don't know of any Christian families in the UK who practice honour crimes.

I'd say the statistical correlation between Islam and honor killings is too close for comfort, to dismiss the idea that islam has nothing to do with it.

OK lets put it this way, I think honor is a social notion. It's how people around perceive you.
It has nothing to do with how god perceives you, you can not be honorable in front of god.
Or can you?

There is a good trick to see if your views are biased. just replace the hostile element from the subject to something that is dear to you and try to analyze the situation.
For example replace Islam with Christianity or atheism. Lets hypothetically think that in a predominantly atheist country honor killings take place regularly in rural areas. Would you say that it is because these people have no guidance from God, no morales? I doubt it, you will find a more factual argument.

I don't know of any Christian families in the UK who practice honour crimes.

Well I think that's because expat Christian families in UK are usually from countries where this kind of tradition is not strong.
But really.. You can not know all Christian families in UK.
If a drunken husband beats his wife to death for cheating, is it a honor killing? The guy will never say that it is a honor killing, but things like this happen more often than you would like to admit. And technically it can be classified as a honor killing.

Bethsmum, I understand your concern but blaming this on Islam will not solve it. It is very unlikely that You will turn all the Muslims in UK into Christians. Instead you should take advantage from the fact that most people involved in honour killings are muslims. So the best thing to do, is to find how Quran prohibits this practice and spread the word.

herve wrote:The perpetrators of honor killings are in vast majority muslums. The reason it has to do EVERYTHING with islam is simple and Not just because these crimes are committed by muslums:
In islamic countries, hence under sharia law, (islamic law) muslums who get convicted of honor killing (when they get convicted) get very light sentences, 6 months at the most, out of jail after 2. Syria, Jordan, palestine. a slap on the hand for murder, who would get otherwise at least 25 to life in the UK and in the US.
If it had nothing to do with islam, like certain defender of islam like to claim, these criminals would get stiff prison sentences. but sharia law does not provide stiff sentencing for honor killing, therefore it supports it .
Another reason why muslums somehow are lenient and forgiving toward honor killings, is that the language is biased from the start, why do they call it honor killing. a murder is a murder, and it should be called a murder. calling it honor killing is somehow downgrading the felony.
I d like to hear muslums, saying that it is murder and the offenders should life in prison, not a slap on the hand.
In the US, there is no honor killing, only murders, and the offenders get punished in full.
in the UK, muslums start getting away with it, with the UK courts being lenient with the offenders.

It has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with culture. Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, Christians have and continue to practice honor killing or other acts to "secure" their honor. It is cultural.

I'm sure the UK, like the US, run stats on the states, then broken down by city, identifying types of crime which are broken down demographically. In this case, the area to be researched would be honor killings, and broken down you would find that the highest number are by Muslims. If you look at stats on white collar crime, the majority would be the white race.

Bora Bora wrote:

herve wrote:The perpetrators of honor killings are in vast majority muslums. The reason it has to do EVERYTHING with islam is simple and Not just because these crimes are committed by muslums:
In islamic countries, hence under sharia law, (islamic law) muslums who get convicted of honor killing (when they get convicted) get very light sentences, 6 months at the most, out of jail after 2. Syria, Jordan, palestine. a slap on the hand for murder, who would get otherwise at least 25 to life in the UK and in the US.
If it had nothing to do with islam, like certain defender of islam like to claim, these criminals would get stiff prison sentences. but sharia law does not provide stiff sentencing for honor killing, therefore it supports it .
Another reason why muslums somehow are lenient and forgiving toward honor killings, is that the language is biased from the start, why do they call it honor killing. a murder is a murder, and it should be called a murder. calling it honor killing is somehow downgrading the felony.
I d like to hear muslums, saying that it is murder and the offenders should life in prison, not a slap on the hand.
In the US, there is no honor killing, only murders, and the offenders get punished in full.
in the UK, muslums start getting away with it, with the UK courts being lenient with the offenders.

It has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with culture. Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, Christians have and continue to practice honor killing or other acts to "secure" their honor. It is cultural.

I'm sure the UK, like the US, run stats on the states, then broken down by city, identifying types of crime which are broken down demographically. In this case, the area to be researched would be honor killings, and broken down you would find that the highest number are by Muslims. If you look at stats on white collar crime, the majority would be the white race.

the area to be researched would be honor killings, and broken down you would find that the highest number are by Muslims.

So you’re saying it’s a Muslim thing then?

White Collar Crime is a crime committed by a person of respectability and high social standing in the course of his or her profession, so in India this would most likely be a brown person and in China a Yellow one, if you targeted any specific social or ethnic group they would make up 100% of the guilty parties

But no one is advocating this, no one is targeting muslims as a subject group, the thread is about Honour killings on the increase in the UK, where the population is roughly made up of 3.5% British Asian Pakistani/Bangladeshi and 3.5% British Asian Indian/SE Asian but yet the guilty parties are overwhelmingly predominately muslim?

People are quick to point out that Sikhs, Hindu’s and other ethnic/religious groups are also guilty of the crime, no one is denying this, but it also doesn’t provide license for other ethnic/religious groups to excel at the practice does it? I think Herve has provided the most insight into this question and that is by mention of the reduced punishment by Sharia law in cases involving crimes of Honour, this is without doubt, justification to a degree of honour crimes in a muslim society.

It's simply a matter of cause and effect.

Given that Islamic clerics point out that honour killings have nothing to do with Islam, shouldn't this fact carry some weight in the argument that Islam is the cause of honour killings when Muslims carry it out, but not Islam when non-Muslims carry them out?

It seems to me to be a theory proposed by Islamophobes that honour killings by Muslims is because of the religion. The quote I gave on page said it wasn't, but it was rather cultural. Empirical evidence shows that non-Muslims from the same cultural background also carry out this crime. Ergo, it isn't an Islamic teaching which says it is ok to kill one's child for 'honour'.

Cheers,
Shafique

Regardless of who commit murders in the name of honor, Honor killings go down to a simple fact:
In Western Countries it is called MURDER and it is severly punished.
In islamic countries, these murders are not called murders but honor killings, with the word "honor" as to provide some mitigation or justification, and sharia law provides little or no punishment for the offenders. sharia is the islamic law, because sharia doesn't provide punishment to muslum offenders, honor killing IS condoned by islam.
There is no way around this, either you punish it, or you don't. muslum countries don't, period.

Islam does not condone Murder. Plain and simple.

I totally agree with you that honour killings are nothing more than murder, and God is clear what the punishment for murder is.

shafique wrote:Absolutely no justification for honour killings in any religion. It is a cultural phenomenon that is wrapped up in religion and honour in a number of different cultures - happens amongst Hindus, Sikhs and indeed in Latin America. Yes, there are indeed some Muslims who carry out these crimes - from Kurds to some rural-minded Pakistanis.

No excuse for any of them - but as DDS says, it is not a crime related or isolated in any one religion or tribe.

dubai-politics-talk/taking-closer-look-honor-killings-canada-and-the-t47098.html

In the same thread, I challenged eh to a simple task:

shafique wrote:I challenge you to produce a direct quote from an Islamic cleric that says honour killing is ok. I suspect you can't, or you would have done so already.

Fail. Again.

herve - do you want to take up the challenge?


Indeed in another previous thread statistics were produced to show the extent of the problem - i.e. what % of murders are for 'honour killings'. We looked at the statistics of women in particular being murdered, and showed that an Islamophobic blogger was inventing stats when he claimed that 5000 honour killings a year were being carried out in the USA (of the about 13,600 murders in total only 128 are of non-white or non-black ethnicity, for example - and other bodies estimate honour killings to be 5000 per annum globally).
dubai-politics-talk/justice-served-american-islamic-honor-killing-t46384.html

If you had just done some research and checked out the wild claims on Islamphobic websites, you'd discover what Islam teaches about honour killings and murders. There's no shortage of Islamic clerics stating that Honour killings have nothing to do with any religion, let alone Islam.

Islamphobic spin vs reality. Again.

Cheers,
Shafique