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event horizon · Dec 01, 2011

It's a smart move to avoid comparing Karmi's statements about "Muslims" to what FD wrote.

After all, FD never made the following remark about Muslims:

Karmi wrote:The Muslims, especially, are segregationists, and the whole world is now suffering from this attitude

shafique · Dec 01, 2011

What has FD's failed misquote got to do with his xenophobic rant about Muslims? Just because he failed to show I was anti-semitic by selectively quoting Karmi is neither here nor there.

Why not address FD's actual quote here which is no different from Nazi quotes about Jews, rather than his misquote from a separate thread?

I think I know the answer.

Anyway, do you have any comment on herve's failed premise that Islam is in decline?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 01, 2011

Karmi wrote:The Muslims, especially, are segregationists, and the whole world is now suffering from this attitude

Comparing FD's comments to Karmi's would pretty much prove Karmi to be the Antisemite he is.

Good choice in avoiding it.

After all, just claiming FD's comments are no different from the Nazi's without showing how is all you can do when I can reel off what Karmi wrote at any time.

shafique · Dec 01, 2011

FD's rant is indeed no different from Nazi screeds on Jews. What FD's misquote of Karmi has to do with this is beyond me.

It certainly doesn't excuse his nazi-like rant.

What is funny is that you're avoiding what I've written and trying to make out that FD's misquote of Karmi has something to do with me. Fail. Again.

Let me ask you again, do you have anything to say on herve's failed notion that Islam is in decline, or are you just going to keep on trolling about random quotes from FD?

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Dec 01, 2011

http://www.hudson-ny.org/2367/european-muslim-no-go-zones

In the Netherlands, a Dutch court ordered the government to release to the public a politically incorrect list of 40 "no-go" zones in Holland. The top five Muslim problem neighborhoods are in Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Utrecht. The Kolenkit area in Amsterdam is the number one Muslim "problem district" in the country. The next three districts are in Rotterdam – Pendrecht, het Oude Noorden and Bloemhof. The Ondiep district in Utrecht is in the fifth position, followed by Rivierenwijk (Deventer), Spangen (Rotterdam), Oude Westen (Rotterdam), Heechterp/ Schieringen (Leeuwarden) and Noord-Oost (Maastricht).

People had enough. Of course, those exposed, will spit toxic venom over this.

shafique · Dec 01, 2011

Still justifying your rant? Nazis also were convinced that the anti-Jewish propaganda was true.

But I still keep coming back to ask what this has to do with herve's failed theory?

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Dec 01, 2011

Muslima's in general are good collegues and pleasant company. Even the Muslima is discovering that the native Dutch man is more developed, than their caveman cousins.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.volkskrant.nl%2Fvk%2Fnl%2F3184%2Fopinie%2Farticle%2Fdetail%2F3058181%2F2011%2F12%2F01%2FMarokkaanse-vrouw-zoekt-blonde-prins.dhtml&act=url

event horizon · Dec 01, 2011

What FD's misquote of Karmi has to do with this is beyond me.

Happy to compare any line of Karmi's Antisemitic screed with what FD wrote.

I didn't see anything Nazi like in FD's comment.

Why don't you highlight which particular line was Nazi like and I'll be happy to compare said line with Karmi's Antisemitic statements?

shafique · Dec 01, 2011

Again, I ask what does FD misquoting Karmi have to do with FD's post in this thread which is no different from Nazi views of Jews?

The whole of FD's rant against Muslims was exactly like Nazi rants against Jews. Let me know if you disagree, and in what way his views are different from that of Nazis.

FD now seems to think that 'Muslim' equals 'non-European' - as if there aren't any Dutch Muslims (and Dutch Muslim men in particular). :roll:

It would be interesting to hear his comments about these two articles then (which also show the status of Islam in Holland, and highlights yet again the gap between the truth and loon hype about Islam's demise):

I am Arnold Yasin Mol and am president of the Scientific Bureau of the Dutch Muslim Party.

Muslims are now some decades part of Dutch society, the first generations were brought here to help rebuild our country.
From dikes to buildings, in almost every province they were deployed and have contributed to what the Netherlands is now; a modern country with good infrastructure and housing.

Now we are several generations later, and the immigrant children and grandchildren are completely part of Dutch society. They grow up with the same cartoons, freedom, education and ambitions as any other Dutch person.

The first generations hoped to return to their homeland, but to stay was the only option for a better future for their children. Besides these, and today there are many people who became Muslim. And this is why it is important for Muslims in the Netherlands to have their own voice in politics.

A voice which displays their interests, their dreams, their future and their ethics. That clearly states that Muslims are not terrorists or medieval barbarians, but want to live in harmony and contribute to a good future for everyone.

Islamic ideas that help contribute for a better world, precisely because Islam calls for peace. Not through oppression as it is unfortunately often assumed, but through dialogue and cooperation.
...

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599937.0

And

Nourdeen Wildeman is a 26-year-old Dutch Muslim who converted to Islam "officially" on December 9, 2007. Despite his recent conversion, he managed to launch his ongoing project "Find the Mosque that Fits You Best."

In this interview, Nourdeen talks not only about his project's experience, which gives useful information on Dutch mosques, but also about his daily challenges and opportunities as a Dutch Muslim convert, as well as a positive role model for European Muslim youth.

IslamOnline.net (IOL): Would you please tell us more about your project?

Wildeman: It is an e-project aiming to profile all mosques in the Netherlands. Through this project, any Muslim can know all about the mosques there with full information about each mosque.
...

http://www.onislam.net/english/reading- ... 23107.html

Proving that FD's looniness is not shared by all Dutch men.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 01, 2011

The whole of FD's rant against Muslims was exactly like Nazi rants against Jews. Let me know if you disagree, and in what way his views are different from that of Nazis.

I thought I was pretty clear that I disagreed.

Let me know in what way FD's comments condemning violent crime were similar to the Nazis and we can then compare Karmi's Nazi like statements on Jews to what FD wrote to determine which poster is actually closer to Nazi sloganeering.

shafique · Dec 01, 2011

Again, what has FD's misquote of Karmi got to do with FD's nazi-like views in his post?

You ask in what way is FD's post like the Nazi propaganda... well, let me re-state my case again:

It is only FD who has posted the nazi-like comments in this thread. Imagining that I share nazi views is a poor excuse for a comeback. But nice of you to support FD.

Let's see what FD's post looks like if we change the reference to Jews:

The problem is that JEWS tend to create 'no-go areas" in the big European cities. Many donot integrate. Crime rate amongst them is disproportionally high. Those are not little things. A 2% increase in population means a much higher increase in crime, if things are going the way it goes now. Belittling it only has an opposite effect. Also, I cannot stand the knee-jerking reactions that everything is the fault of European society. Look at yourself, and see whats wrong with your society, how you teach the boys to have very screwed perceptions of girls. When a girl is walking in a short skirt and tight tank top, it really doesn't mean she is asking for it and that she should be harassed, especially not by some stupid ugly Rif mountain dude.

And don't cry foul, when you create trouble wherever you are, and then people donot let you in anymore.

That's straight out of a 1930's Nazi propaganda leaflet about Jews (and Gypsies etc).

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 01, 2011

Karmi wrote:Segregationism has been practiced by Islam in the past and at present, both in religion and in worldly matters. The Muslims, especially, are segregationists, and the whole world is now suffering from this attitude. It has therefore become aggressive and dangerous. It has given birth to prejudice, schizophrenia, hypocrisy, double talk, double standards, double think, created a split between “us” and “them”, and resulted in dividing mankind into poor and rich, weak and strong, and into master and slave.

But one would like to ask in this connection where does this division of the world’s peoples into Evil and Good come from? The first source that comes to one’s mind is the Muslim doctrine that divides humanity into those who are believer and non-believer.

This doctrine seems to have imprisoned the world in its grip.

vs

Flying Dutchman wrote:The problem is that Muslims tend to create 'no-go areas" in the big European cities. Many donot integrate. Crime rate amongst them is disproportionally high. Those are not little things. A 2% increase in population means a much higher increase in crime, if things are going the way it goes now. Belittling it only has an opposite effect. Also, I cannot stand the knee-jerking reactions that everything is the fault of European society. Look at yourself, and see whats wrong with your society, how you teach the boys to have very screwed perceptions of girls. When a girl is walking in a short skirt and tight tank top, it really doesn't mean she is asking for it and that she should be harassed, especially not by some stupid ugly Rif mountain dude.
And don't cry foul, when you create trouble wherever you are, and then people donot let you in anymore.

Nothing I saw in FD's quote was racist. He doesn't claim Muslims are an especially violent people as Karmi makes a similar generalization of Jews.

He simply says that many do not integrate. That's probably the closest statement someone could complain about for not being politically correct. Hardly worth a comparison to Nazi writings on Jews.

Now, it speaks volumes that you would see Nazi rhetoric in FD's comments but give a pass to labeling Jews as a segregationist people and that they have damaged the world (both textbook Nazi accusations of the Jews) through their "doctrines".

But seriously, highlight the worst offending sentence FD made and I'll be happy to compare the sentence from the numerous Antisemitic quotes from Karmi.

shafique · Dec 01, 2011

So you are supporting FD's nazi-like rant and trying to say that he's just as bad as a deliberate misquote from Karmi.

Interesting.

We call that a 'whataboutery' argument - but a strange one, justifying FD's nazi rant by reference to a deliberate misquote from Karmi from an essay about the ills of segregationism. Hmm.

There were people like you making similar excuses for Nazi propaganda about Jews - saying that they 'had a point'. Unfortunately for you, the examples of Dutch Muslims given above show that just like the Nazis, FD is wrong.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 01, 2011

Just highlight which parts of FD's post makes it comparable to Nazi propaganda and we'll look at Karmi's pure Antisemitic drivel for comparison's sake.

shafique · Dec 01, 2011

I'm amazed at your lack of comprehension skills. I stated clearly that the quoted post above is exactly the same as Nazi propaganda about Jews.

I'm still puzzled why you are referring to FD's misquote from Karmi - what has that got to do with his nazi-like quote here?

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Dec 01, 2011

Ok I'll try. Is there any ethnic European here reading this who disagrees with me?

My opinion is mainstream among native population, politicians, police etc etc. But according to poster Shafique the majority of Dutch politicians and the majority of the police force are nazi's. Thats quite a take on this, calling the majority of the Dutch population nazi's, but he is probably gonna repeat it like an Alzheimer patient.

Grow up, be a man, take your chances like all the other immigrant groups did! Even your women don't like you anymore.

shafique · Dec 01, 2011

LOL. Now you are definitely sounding like a right-wing nut - playing the race card. But hey, your argument that many people share your views is EXACTLY the same as the Nazis who viewed Jews in the way you view Dutch Muslims.

Your desperate plea for people to own up to sharing your beliefs is funny and tragic. It is telling that you are left to these appeals rather than referencing any real evidence.

I also note that you have no comment over your post saying that Muslims does not equal European, and my response that there are Dutch Muslims who are both Muslim and European (and white European at that).

Fail.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Dec 01, 2011

You better come to terms that the days of multi-culti are history. Muslims screwed up.

shafique · Dec 01, 2011

I understand you want to believe that.

But it still doesn't explain how you reconcile the presence of white Dutch Muslims with your view that Muslims are not European. Nor does the fact that there are 100,000 white women in the UK alone who are converts to Islam.

We are talking about the demise (or otherwise) of Islam aren't we? You seem to be on a racist/xenophobic track that is taking us away from the thread's topic. Why the hate?

Here are some of your fellow Dutch - first some ladies who are now Muslim:

And here a fellow Dutchman explaining that Islam is not foreign to Dutch values:

Jacob van Blom, a born and bred Rotterdamer, has bright blue eyes and a full red beard. He is a Feyenoord supporter and runs his own business. Eleven years ago, he converted to Islam.

He says people falsely view Islam as a "foreign culture" that has nothing to do with the Netherlands, but "if you separate the core belief from the cultural aspects, you're left with a beautiful belief that is true for everyone".
...
Jacob says the fear of Islam is primarily due to a lack of information, "here in the Netherlands we just don't know the simple basics about Islam. That's also true within the government and the police and security services. I think that's so sad. That's how you make people afraid".

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/why-d ... vert-islam

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 02, 2011

shafique wrote:I'm amazed at your lack of comprehension skills. I stated clearly that the quoted post above is exactly the same as Nazi propaganda about Jews.

I'm still puzzled why you are referring to FD's misquote from Karmi - what has that got to do with his nazi-like quote here?

Cheers,
Shafique

Really? Prove it, then we can compare FD's quote to Karmi's Antisemitic statements on Jews being an especially wicked people whose Jewish doctrines have managed to ensnare the world.

shafique · Dec 02, 2011

You want me to prove that FD's nazi-like rant against Muslims is less bad than his deliberate misquote from Karmi? Why would I want to show that? I actually think his nazi-like rant is worse than his misquote, as his post here hasn't been taken out of context. :roll:

Now, coming back to the thread's topic.. here's a report from NBC from a few years back about converts to Islam in the USA. It says back then 20,000 are converting every year. So much for the 'demise':

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 02, 2011

I didn't see anything Nazi like in FD's comment.

Being a Nazi, I'd have figured you'd try to highlight which bits and pieces were similar to what the Nazis would say.

However, Karmi's rant on Jews is textbook Nazi material. I'd have no problem comparing his quotes on Jews to the Nazis.

Bethsmum · Dec 02, 2011

Flying Dutchman wrote:Ok I'll try. Is there any ethnic European here reading this who disagrees with me?

No, I can't disagree with that.

-- Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:34 pm --

shafique wrote: Nor does the fact that there are 100,000 white women in the UK alone who are converts to Islam.

Cheers,
Shafique

I only know one and she was co-erced.

shafique · Dec 02, 2011

eh - I"m still confused as to why you're equating FD's misquote of Karmi with FD's nazi-like rant? Are you trying to say that FD's post is better than FD's misquote? :roll:

But back to the thread's topic - do you know whether the number of converts to Islam in the USA is now greater than the 20,000 cited in the NBC report? That's quite a lot - and hardly shows that Islam is in decline, does it?

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Dec 04, 2011

6 Million Muslims LEAVE Islam every year!!!
"In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity. These numbers are very large indeed ?.. "
From Ahmad Al Katani, it cant be more official than that.
Read the al jazeera interview.

shafique · Dec 04, 2011

LOL - I love your loon fantasies herve, especially when they involve you and statistics.

You should write into NBC and Fox etc and get them to correct their news stories that 'Islam is fastest growing religion' and '20,000 Americans convert to Islam each year'. You quoted a loon website who put a serious loony spin on an interview with a Libyan claiming that in Africa 6 million Africans convert from Christianity to Islam (and not providing any evidence for this) - which shows how desperate you are.

But hey, quoting loony websites is all you have left now. Did they not teach you to do fact-checks in the French intelligence services?

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Dec 04, 2011

This interesting article shows the point of view from muzlims who left islam, they give the top 3 reasons why they left this cult as:
1) Muhammad at 53 consummated his marriage to a 9 year old, which translates into that for these muzlims pedophilia of muhammad is unaccepatable
2) Muhammad did NOT change women’s lives for the better, obviously he made it for the worst. still today muslum women have their human rights violated, rape, polygamy, stoning, honor killing and so forth
3)Muhammad ordered to kill those who have left Islam, his critics & 800 unarmed Medinan Jews, involved in raids & demanded his share of the booty: and that his version of heaven would make any Amsterdam whorehouse madam blush.
http://www.islam-watch.org/LeavingIslam ... -Islam.htm

Flying Dutchman · Dec 04, 2011

Is not a coincidence that forced prostitution in the RLD is ruled by Turkish and Moroccan groomers. They are brought up with a very screwed up perception of Western girls.

shafique · Dec 04, 2011

I think the one with screwed up perceptions are the people who choose to make wild statistics such as claiming that

Flying Dutchman wrote:..
More in depth studies show for example that 70% of Moroccans living in Amsterdam are criminals.

dubai-politics-talk/decoy-jews-dutch-land-t42381-15.html#p341018

As you later had to admit, this was not true.

Perhaps you're right about Turkish and Moroccan groomers - and perhaps it is this fact/belief that causes you hatred of Muslims/Immigrants etc.

But I'm still scratching my head about what your belief about Turkish and Moroccon immigrants have to do with the discredited notion that Islam is in decline. Are you just randomly posting anti-Immigrant posts in response to the fact that your equating of Muslim with non-European doesn't apply to the Dutch Muslims featured above?

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Dec 04, 2011

Many muzlims are leaving islam everyday because they are discovering that islam is nothing but a lie. They wake up realising that muslums are simply slaves to allah, and that islam robs a good person of personal human rights. Islam means submission to allah - not "peace" as so many "moderate" muslums claim. Many more would like to leave islam, but are prevented because of social and economic reasons ( family, dependance, etc) and fear . The punishment for apostacy in islam is death.

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