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kanelli wrote:I think that religion and government should be kept strictly apart, because that is the only way that people will not be persecuted and the only way they can live freely and speak freely.

Muslims, especially people in Middle east have tried democracy, communism, and westernization last 100 years, and all have them have done nothing but to bring misery and corruption. Muslims were better much better of when Islam was the rule of law...matter fact there was less corruption, persecution under the Islamic rule than today. Muslims under Islamic rule were more tolerant to other faiths than they are today under democracy, communism, dictatorship and westernization.

Sorry to say that many people today are not of the Islamic faith or have no religion at all, so what you suggest would leave them open to persecution. Plus living in an oppressive society where your life is governed by religious teachings is not practical or wanted for many people.

Plus you also fail once again to look at the flip side. What of the preachers across Europe that would have European countries as Islamic states, are they not enforcing their opinions? Are they not trying to govern peoples lives? In countries which many of them are 'guests'!

A place like the UAE has opened itself up to be multi-cultural and promoting itself as a destination for people of all backgrounds and walks of life, plus of course it wants as much revenue as possible from tourism and investment and the hard work of the expat community - is this not greedy?

I've come to the conclusion Lionheart, that you do not live in the real world and fail to see past the end of your nose and your biased rose tinted glasses.

Chocoholic wrote:Sorry to say that many people today are not of the Islamic faith or have no religion at all, so what you suggest would leave them open to persecution. Plus living in an oppressive society where your life is governed by religious teachings is not practical or wanted for many people.

Plus you also fail once again to look at the flip side. What of the preachers across Europe that would have European countries as Islamic states, are they not enforcing their opinions? Are they not trying to govern peoples lives? In countries which many of them are 'guests'!

A place like the UAE has opened itself up to be multi-cultural and promoting itself as a destination for people of all backgrounds and walks of life, plus of course it wants as much revenue as possible from tourism and investment and the hard work of the expat community - is this not greedy?

I've come to the conclusion Lionheart, that you do not live in the real world and fail to see past the end of your nose and your biased rose tinted glasses.

Sorry to say that many people today are not of the Islamic faith or have no religion at all, so what you suggest would leave them open to persecution. Plus living in an oppressive society where your life is governed by religious teachings is not practical or wanted for many people.

If countries population is overwhelmingly muslim and the citizens of those countries want Islamic rule rather western version of democracy, why not respect their wishes like you want people to respect your wish of living in country were politics and religion don't mix. I don't believe its right or sensible to impose Islamic law on population who is not muslim. I disagree with you on what constitutes oppressive society...in my opinion an oppressive society is society that holds nothing sacred...were god almighty is mocked/riddiculed...were prophets are insulted...were homesexuality is rampant..were children have no respect for parents and elders...were child abuse is norm...husbands kill their spouse, children and parents for insurance money...were money is more valuable than human life...were the purpose of life of average citizen is attaining wealth and fame rather worshippping the creator heaven and earth....To me this is more of oppressive society than the brutal Taliban regime.

Plus you also fail once again to look at the flip side. What of the preachers across Europe that would have European countries as Islamic states, are they not enforcing their opinions? Are they not trying to govern peoples lives? In countries which many of them are 'guests'!

Europe is Christian, so why would I wish to impose Islamic state or rule on them and I don't think I ever said to... I think you are confusing Middle east which I believe should become one big country stretching from Maurtania to Iraq...and this possible since all the countries inbetween with exception of Iraq are overwhelmingly majority Sunni Muslims and also these are lands Sunni Caliphat's(the Umayyad,Abbasids, Ottoman) ruled in the past.

I've come to the conclusion Lionheart, that you do not live in the real world and fail to see past the end of your nose and your biased rose tinted glasses

Choco...I could be reasoned with...but you and others here unfortunately can not be reasoned...

Lionheart,

Your description of 'oppressiveness' of western societies in relation to lack of morals etc has very little to do with democracy or form of government. You cannot legislate for morality.

I was shocked when I went to Saudi Arabia to hear that there is a problem of paedophillia there - to the point where my host would go and collect his teenage sons from school rather than have them travel home by themselves! They commented that Dubai was far safer in terms of sex crimes BECAUSE of the presence of prostitution!!

This is to illustrate the depravity of the society there now, where rape is not uncommon and the perversions have moved to kids. This is DESPITE having strict 'Islamic' or rather 'Wahabistic' laws.

Morality begins at home, society cannot take responsibility for bad parenting and bad values.

You cannot have it both ways - if democracy is bad because it has led to 'loose morals' in your view, then by extension you should also denounce the Saudi model for making it unsafe to let young boys walk around by themselves and have women going round in fear of being raped (by Saudis, I might add). And this is what is reported - what goes on behind closed doors would make Hugh Heffner blush!

As for the question of Muslim unity and your view that a Caliphate is the panacea for the ills of the Ummah - I admire your idealism, but have to feather it with the reality of the politics of current muslim population. They can't agree on a joint general approach on the question of punishment for Apostacy (which isn't death, btw), let alone sort out the theological differences between all the sects.

If the muslim ummah can't agree on the dates of Eid within a country, what hope is there for choosing a world-wide Caliph? The Islamic model does not allow for multiple religious heads, but one leader.

You seem to exclude Shia from the position of leading the muslim world, so even in your model there would be some separation. But leave this to oneside - in the Sunni sphere, who would you suggest would make a good (ok, lets just settle on Credible for now) leader?

Wasalaam,
Shafique

Excellent post Shaf, I was also going to say that eveything Lionheart mentioned which in his opinion describes an oppressed society is rife in the UAE and Middle East! You only have to look at the papers over the last week for evidence of everything he mentioned

Once again Lionheart you're totally oblivious to the world around you.

Lionheart wrote:For starters getting ride of puppet leaders in middle east and installing a Islamic government similiar to Hamas Government that serves the interest of its people rather than its own or the west....

What do you suggest how should we do this (get rid of puppet leaders)?

Lionheart wrote:after this I would hope the governments in Middle east become self-dependent by taking their investment out of American and British markets and reinvesting that money into their markets or the markets in far east such as China, Indonesia, India, Iran, even Africa. Opening a Oil bourse or joining Iranian Oil bourse would help people in middle east be more self dependent in its Politics and in economically.

What makes you so sure that China won't be as bad as the "west"?
Second, is it possible without establishing investment friendly enviormnent?

Lionheart wrote:In order to learn from our own mistakes we have to be allowed to have governments that represents our interest..so that when they fail we are the onese to blame for their failures and their successes...but if we are not allowed to have government that represents our interest than how could we take blame for our problems... when most them are caused by western Interference do to greed and imperlism..

I agree to certain extent, but we don't need to first have a govt. that represents for every mistake that we can learn from and change.


- Verily never will Allah change a condition of a people until they change what is within their souls [Quran 13:11]

- And thus We subjugate some oppressors to other (oppressors) due to their doings. [Quran 6:129]
(There are various views to this ayat; Hazrat A'amash's view is that when people's actions become corrupt, then Allah appoints the most oppressive people as leaders over them.)



- Hazrat Abdullah bin Abbas (RA) states:
The nation that is involved in misappropriation of trust (embezzlement), Allah will fill their hearts with terror for their enemies. The nation that is engaged in fornication, will experience great numbers of death. The nation that cheats in measure, will have their sustenance curtailed. The nation that legislates against the truth and justice, will experience great bloodshed and the nation that breaks it's contracts, will be subdued by the enemy. - Mishkaat

- Ali r.a. once responded to a complaints by the people that were questioning why they were facing so many problems under his rule that were not apparent at the the time of Abu Bakr and Umar, r.a. by saying, "When they ruled they had people like me to rule over whlile I have people like YOU"

- Rasulullah (Sallallahu alaihi wa Sallam) said: Just as you are (your actions are) so will your rulers be.

- In one hadith it is reported: Do not engross yourselves in cursing and abusing your rulers; in fact you should gain the proximity of Allah (through obedience) and make dua on their behalf, Allah will turn their hearts towards you in mercy and kindness.

- A pious person once overheard someone cursing Hajjaaj (the notorious tyrant). He prevented him from this, saying: Whatever is happening is the result of your own actions. I fear that if Hajjaaj is deposed or expires, monkeys and swine be made rulers over you.

- In another hadith, it is reported:
I am Allah, there is no deity besides Me, I am the King of Kings and the Master of Kings, the heart of Kings are within My control; when My servants are obedient to me, I make their rulers kind-hearted towards them; when they disobey Me, I turn their rulers against them with anger and tyranny, they then oppress them severly. Therefore, instead of cursing them, turn towards me in remembrance and submission, I will protect you against their tyranny.

"If the muslim ummah can't agree on the dates of Eid within a country"
In Islam it is not necessary to agree on dates of Eid... unity doesn't mean uniformity.

Caliphate is a very complex issue and I wonder whether average muslims know what exactly is a caliph, how one is elected, and the classical governing system under caliphate?

Nucleus,

In one area there cannot be two dates for Eid, no matter what logic you use (unless, of course, there are 2 different versions of Islam)?

As for the Caliphate - it is not complex, Khalifa means successor and in Islam means the sole leader of the whole community. Any other definition is a man-made fabrication derived to justify the status quo at the time.

Bottom line is that there is no unity because people are following personalities and having ego trips rather than being humble and worshipping God and following His commandment to love mankind, do good works and help the needy.

Wasalaam,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Lionheart,

Your description of 'oppressiveness' of western societies in relation to lack of morals etc has very little to do with democracy or form of government. You cannot legislate for morality.

I was shocked when I went to Saudi Arabia to hear that there is a problem of paedophillia there - to the point where my host would go and collect his teenage sons from school rather than have them travel home by themselves! They commented that Dubai was far safer in terms of fun crimes BECAUSE of the presence of prostitution!!

This is to illustrate the depravity of the society there now, where rape is not uncommon and the perversions have moved to kids. This is DESPITE having strict 'Islamic' or rather 'Wahabistic' laws.

Morality begins at home, society cannot take responsibility for bad parenting and bad values.

You cannot have it both ways - if democracy is bad because it has led to 'loose morals' in your view, then by extension you should also denounce the Saudi model for making it unsafe to let young boys walk around by themselves and have women going round in fear of being raped (by Saudis, I might add). And this is what is reported - what goes on behind closed doors would make Hugh Heffner blush!

As for the question of Muslim unity and your view that a Caliphate is the panacea for the ills of the Ummah - I admire your idealism, but have to feather it with the reality of the politics of current muslim population. They can't agree on a joint general approach on the question of punishment for Apostacy (which isn't death, btw), let alone sort out the theological differences between all the sects.

If the muslim ummah can't agree on the dates of Eid within a country, what hope is there for choosing a world-wide Caliph? The Islamic model does not allow for multiple religious heads, but one leader.

You seem to exclude Shia from the position of leading the muslim world, so even in your model there would be some separation. But leave this to oneside - in the Sunni sphere, who would you suggest would make a good (ok, lets just settle on Credible for now) leader?

Wasalaam,
Shafique

You cannot have it both ways - if democracy is bad because it has led to 'loose morals' in your view, then by extension you should also denounce the Saudi model for making it unsafe to let young boys walk around by themselves and have women going round in fear of being raped (by Saudis, I might add). And this is what is reported - what goes on behind closed doors would make Hugh Heffner blush!

Shafique... I have never used Saud Arabia as example of just and fair Islamic society... I have always spoken out against Saudis and other rich Gulf Arabs who hide behind Islam, while abusing it in the worst possible way...Although I have never lived in Saud Arabia personally... I have friends who live in Saud Arabia and have told me about the pedophiles, the abuse maides( mainly Phillipino, Indonesian), the wife beatings, the child slavery, and many other things that would make the stomachs of muslims around the world sick.


For the last 1000 years muslims have had disagrements over interpretation, differenceses on how to implement laws...but none of it stopped them from establishing the Ummah across the muslim world. Today it's not as much as differenceses in interpretetion of the deen, but rather the nationalism, race issue introduced by Western colonist that exist across muslim world. Sahaba worked to eliminate borders and racial differenceses to bring brothers together, while today's muslims are doing the opposite...by creating more borders and engaging more racial discrimination against fellow muslims.

You seem to exclude Shia from the position of leading the muslim world, so even in your model there would be some separation. But leave this to oneside - in the Sunni sphere, who would you suggest would make a good (ok, lets just settle on Credible for now) leader?

Shafique.... I excluded Shia, because shia don't want to be ruled by Sunnis and vice verse Sunnis don't want to be ruled by Shias. Shias were never part of the Ummayed, the Abbasid and Othoman khilifah...they always had a seperate Ummah in Persia...If shias want to be part of the Ummah than they welcome to join the Ummah...

Who would make good leader in the Sunni sphere?

I don't know...I think Allah(SWT) is the only one that knows right know...but inshallah I will pray I live long enough to see the leader of the Ummah.

Nucleus wrote:

Lionheart wrote:For starters getting ride of puppet leaders in middle east and installing a Islamic government similiar to Hamas Government that serves the interest of its people rather than its own or the west....

What do you suggest how should we do this (get rid of puppet leaders)?

Lionheart wrote:after this I would hope the governments in Middle east become self-dependent by taking their investment out of American and British markets and reinvesting that money into their markets or the markets in far east such as China, Indonesia, India, Iran, even Africa. Opening a Oil bourse or joining Iranian Oil bourse would help people in middle east be more self dependent in its Politics and in economically.

What makes you so sure that China won't be as bad as the "west"?
Second, is it possible without establishing investment friendly enviormnent?

Lionheart wrote:In order to learn from our own mistakes we have to be allowed to have governments that represents our interest..so that when they fail we are the onese to blame for their failures and their successes...but if we are not allowed to have government that represents our interest than how could we take blame for our problems... when most them are caused by western Interference do to greed and imperlism..

I agree to certain extent, but we don't need to first have a govt. that represents for every mistake that we can learn from and change.


- Verily never will Allah change a condition of a people until they change what is within their souls [Quran 13:11]

- And thus We subjugate some oppressors to other (oppressors) due to their doings. [Quran 6:129]
(There are various views to this ayat; Hazrat A'amash's view is that when people's actions become corrupt, then Allah appoints the most oppressive people as leaders over them.)



- Hazrat Abdullah bin Abbas (RA) states:
The nation that is involved in misappropriation of trust (embezzlement), Allah will fill their hearts with terror for their enemies. The nation that is engaged in fornication, will experience great numbers of death. The nation that cheats in measure, will have their sustenance curtailed. The nation that legislates against the truth and justice, will experience great bloodshed and the nation that breaks it's contracts, will be subdued by the enemy. - Mishkaat

- Ali r.a. once responded to a complaints by the people that were questioning why they were facing so many problems under his rule that were not apparent at the the time of Abu Bakr and Umar, r.a. by saying, "When they ruled they had people like me to rule over whlile I have people like YOU"

- Rasulullah (Sallallahu alaihi wa Sallam) said: Just as you are (your actions are) so will your rulers be.

- In one hadith it is reported: Do not engross yourselves in cursing and abusing your rulers; in fact you should gain the proximity of Allah (through obedience) and make dua on their behalf, Allah will turn their hearts towards you in mercy and kindness.

- A pious person once overheard someone cursing Hajjaaj (the notorious tyrant). He prevented him from this, saying: Whatever is happening is the result of your own actions. I fear that if Hajjaaj is deposed or expires, monkeys and swine be made rulers over you.

- In another hadith, it is reported:
I am Allah, there is no deity besides Me, I am the King of Kings and the Master of Kings, the heart of Kings are within My control; when My servants are obedient to me, I make their rulers kind-hearted towards them; when they disobey Me, I turn their rulers against them with anger and tyranny, they then oppress them severly. Therefore, instead of cursing them, turn towards me in remembrance and submission, I will protect you against their tyranny.

What do you suggest how should we do this (get rid of puppet leaders...

If Saudis, Jordanians, Kuwaitese, Emerites,etc could go all the way to Afghanistan to fight against superpower the USSR or Iraq to fight against another superpower Americans...than don't see why they cannot fight against their oppressive governments to bring about change..

What makes you so sure that China won't be as bad as the "west"?
Second, is it possible without establishing investment friendly enviormnent?

For starters China minds its own business...China is closer to Mid east than Europe or America...Mid east and China have been doing business far longer than Mid east and the West... China is not the one arming and protecting Isreal...etc

Lionheart wrote:
For starters China minds its own business...China is closer to Mid east than Europe or America...Mid east and China have been doing business far longer than Mid east and the West... China is not the one arming and protecting Isreal...etc

hehehe, that's the most funny thing I have read. Do u know Y are they quite? Their silence doesnt mean they are sympathetic for Mideast cause. A country which can brutally oppress it's own ppl & suppress the freedom of it's citizens then it is a matter of time it will show it's real color.

Ahem, wasn't Americans with Arabs during Iraq-Iran war, during war with Afghanisthan etc......Dude it's politics- it's a complex algorithm which even today's superpowers can't compute & it's matter of time that the snake that u fed will change sides and give u a stinging bite....it's politics.

sniper420 wrote:

Lionheart wrote:
For starters China minds its own business...China is closer to Mid east than Europe or America...Mid east and China have been doing business far longer than Mid east and the West... China is not the one arming and protecting Isreal...etc

hehehe, that's the most funny thing I have read. Do u know Y are they quite? Their silence doesnt mean they are sympathetic for Mideast cause. A country which can brutally oppress it's own ppl & suppress the freedom of it's citizens then it is a matter of time it will show it's real color.

Ahem, wasn't Americans with Arabs during Iraq-Iran war, during war with Afghanisthan etc......Dude it's politics- it's a complex algorithm which even today's superpowers can't compute & it's matter of time that the snake that u fed will change sides and give u a stinging bite....it's politics.

hehehe, that's the most funny thing I have read. Do u know Y are they quite? Their silence doesnt mean they are sympathetic for Mideast cause. A country which can brutally oppress it's own ppl & suppress the freedom of it's citizens then it is a matter of time it will show it's real color.

I never said they are sympathetic to Mid east nor do I want want their sympathy or anyone elses sympathy.

Atleast they are oppressing their own people, rather than going around the world oppressing and imposing their political Idealogy on foriegn lands like the AMericans/British.

Ahem, wasn't Americans with Arabs during Iraq-Iran war, during war with Afghanisthan etc......Dude it's politics- it's a complex algorithm which even today's superpowers can't compute & it's matter of time that the snake that u fed will change sides and give u a stinging bite....it's politics

Iran stood up against American and Isreal imperlism in MId east while Arabs kissed ass...that is the reason why America support Arabs. They did not support Arabs, because they like you or consider you a friend.

Afghanistan was fighting against USSR the only other Superpower at the time...so basically Afghanistan was doing America a favor weaking the USSR.


Snipers...If AMerica is such good friend to Arabs than why don't they allow Arabs to develop Nuclear weapons like Isreal...why don't they sell Arabs the same weapons they Isreal..why don't they allow Arabs to control their ports like they allow Danish, British, Chinese, etc to control their ports.... Why are their policies always pro Isreal and anti Arab???

Lionheart wrote:
Ahem, wasn't Americans with Arabs during Iraq-Iran war, during war with Afghanisthan etc......Dude it's politics- it's a complex algorithm which even today's superpowers can't compute & it's matter of time that the snake that u fed will change sides and give u a stinging bite....it's politics.

I never said they are sympathetic to Mid east nor do I want want their sympathy or anyone elses sympathy.

Atleast they are oppressing their own people, rather than going around the world oppressing and imposing their political Idealogy on foriegn lands like the AMericans/British.

Iran stood up against American and Isreal imperlism in MId east while Arabs kissed a#s...that is the reason why America support Arabs. They did not support Arabs, because they like you or consider you a friend.

Afghanistan was fighting against USSR the only other Superpower at the time...so basically Afghanistan was doing America a favor weaking the USSR.


Snipers...If AMerica is such good friend to Arabs than why don't they allow Arabs to develop Nuclear weapons like Isreal...why don't they sell Arabs the same weapons they Isreal..why don't they allow Arabs to control their ports like they allow Danish, British, Chinese, etc to control their ports.... Why are their policies always pro Isreal and anti Arab???[/quote]

well dude u r so short-sighted. can't u see China harassing Taiwan and supressing non-chinese pop in Xinjiang or Urghys? They are not getting involved cos they may loose support of Americanos and Europeans which are markets for Chinese goods which is building their economy swiftly. If they reevaluate their yuan, Americans are gonna be in great problem...but aside from that China if it is commuist and bcomes strongest superpower 2morrow......it shall b far worse than Americans........far worse..atleast u do hear ppl protesting war in Iraq in states but u will only hear this statement from China "The Chinese ppl are 100% +- 0% with the Chinese gov" - From press of People's Republic of China.......

Now did u ever play a game call risk? or any strategy game like rise of nations?...there comes a time where I have to unite with my enemy A to defeat another stronger enemy B...but it gives me a view of the strength of enemy A and I make sure when enemy B is done , enemy A is vulnerable and can be dealt with same is the case here if Americanos gives Arabs nukes ...BAM....game over...now there wont be any fun...so they need a common ememy of arabs so they can show up in middle east and pretend to solve the problems by so called "cease fire" which has been going on for past 40 yrs.So u have to play politics...about the port read the topic Port deal seal.

Some excellent posts here people!

Lionheart, are you listening to anything anyone is saying? It is great that you want to have Muslim society that is ideal, but realistically, there is no such thing and will never be such a thing as a Muslim Utopia. Power, politics, money, influence - all corrupt, no matter what the nationality or religion. This has been proven throughout history. Remove one dominant oppressing power and another just fills its place. What I hear from you is that you prefer a Muslim power, but is that any better?

kanelli wrote: will never be such a thing as a Muslim Utopia.

Who are you to say it will never happen?

Has it ever happened? People are people - flawed, corruptible, prone to group-think. When has power NOT corrupted? Look at history Liban... so sad but true. I'd like a utopia, but there is no such thing.

I don't want to be construed as idealistic, however I beleive something must be said to the fact that one cannot say "x, y or z will never happen"

Well, I don't like to say it either, but a long history has provided only depressing records of conduct - so I'm becoming more pessimistic perhaps

kanelli wrote:Has it ever happened? People are people - flawed, corruptible, prone to group-think. When has power NOT corrupted? Look at history Liban... so sad but true. I'd like a utopia, but there is no such thing.

We are not looking for Muslim Utopua..we are seeking the what we had before the British came divided Muslim lands into countries..we are seeking a the Muslim Ummah prophet Mohammed(pbuh) and the Sahaba worked hard to bring together...

Dream on Lionheart - it will never happen, yea all the middle east will combine into one government and give up their borders

pmsl get real

arniegang wrote:Dream on Lionheart - it will never happen, yea all the middle east will combine into one government and give up their borders

pmsl get real

By the will of Allah almighty it will happen...The Ummah will rise again and no one...not even the imperlists will stand in the way of the Ummah... Not only will the Middle east be one big country..but the whole muslim world will be one big country.

Lionheart wrote:

arniegang wrote:Dream on Lionheart - it will never happen, yea all the middle east will combine into one government and give up their borders

pmsl get real

By the will of Allah almighty it will happen...The Ummah will rise again and no one...not even the imperlists will stand in the way of the Ummah... Not only will the Middle east be one big country..but the whole muslim world will be one big country.

after the get together whatca are they gonna do? Wat about ppl like Liban who think Arabs are superior...? Handle em first

pmsl @ Lionheart

It may well be the will of Allah matey, but it wont be the will of all the Royal Leaders in the ME.

sniper420 wrote:

Lionheart wrote:

arniegang wrote:Dream on Lionheart - it will never happen, yea all the middle east will combine into one government and give up their borders

pmsl get real

By the will of Allah almighty it will happen...The Ummah will rise again and no one...not even the imperlists will stand in the way of the Ummah... Not only will the Middle east be one big country..but the whole muslim world will be one big country.

after the get together whatca are they gonna do? Wat about ppl like Liban who think Arabs are superior...? Handle em first

Racial superiority and Ignorance has no place in Islam...

well dude u r so short-sighted. can't u see China harassing Taiwan and supressing non-chinese pop in Xinjiang or Urghys? They are not getting involved cos they may loose support of Americanos and Europeans which are markets for Chinese goods which is building their economy swiftly. If they reevaluate their yuan, Americans are gonna be in great problem...but aside from that China if it is commuist and bcomes strongest superpower 2morrow......it shall b far worse than Americans........far worse..atleast u do hear ppl protesting war in Iraq in states but u will only hear this statement from China "The Chinese ppl are 100% +- 0% with the Chinese gov" - From press of People's Republic of China.......

I don't think I ever said I want to see China as the next superpower..The only superpower I would like to see and support is the Islamic Ummah and right know its not China that is interfering and standing in the way unity between the Ummah..its United States/Britian. Also China is not the one invading and occuppaying muslims lands in Mid east...its America/Britian. As far I see China has done nothing to poor people around the World, while America has waged military and economic war against poor people around the world...Ex. Central America, Mid east and of course the people in Vietnam.

Lionheart,

You say you want to go back to before the British came - but wasn't that the Turkish empire? The muslim world was hardly united then and, if anything, the Arabs were marginalised in the Ottoman empire.

There wasn't a single religious head that the whole muslim world relied on - there was only a Caliph in name, but not authority.

Is this view of history correct, or did you have another model of 'pre-British' muslim world order that you were referring to?

Also, the British brought some order to the Hijaz Penninsular - for instance the pilgrims to Mecca were routinely robbed by the local Arabs until the British put a stop to this.

Wasalaam,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Lionheart,

You say you want to go back to before the British came - but wasn't that the Turkish empire? The muslim world was hardly united then and, if anything, the Arabs were marginalised in the Ottoman empire.

There wasn't a single religious head that the whole muslim world relied on - there was only a Caliph in name, but not authority.

Is this view of history correct, or did you have another model of 'pre-British' muslim world order that you were referring to?

Also, the British brought some order to the Hijaz Penninsular - for instance the pilgrims to Mecca were routinely robbed by the local Arabs until the British put a stop to this.

Wasalaam,
Shafique

I doubt that he can answer this because he likely only reads propaganda he gets from Islamic websites or groups. They blame everything on the West instead of realising that things were not perfect before and in fact, Arabs have collaborated with the West to get things that they wanted from the deal. We all know that imperialism is bad and the West has screwed people over - but they are not the only ones to screw people over. Groups of people are always collaborating with other groups of people to achieve aims - that is the way the world works. To give the impression that Arabs have always been innocently sitting in their villages and cities while being ravaged by the West is false and just plain ignorant.

shafique wrote:Lionheart,

You say you want to go back to before the British came - but wasn't that the Turkish empire? The muslim world was hardly united then and, if anything, the Arabs were marginalised in the Ottoman empire.

There wasn't a single religious head that the whole muslim world relied on - there was only a Caliph in name, but not authority.

Is this view of history correct, or did you have another model of 'pre-British' muslim world order that you were referring to?

Also, the British brought some order to the Hijaz Penninsular - for instance the pilgrims to Mecca were routinely robbed by the local Arabs until the British put a stop to this.

Wasalaam,
Shafique

"Arabs were marginalised in the Ottoman empire"

I don't think Arabs have ever been marginalized, taken advantage of the way they are today. Its kind of amazing how history repeats itself, 1000 years ago Arabs in Abbasid Caliphate were feuding over small things and gave the Crusaders opportunity to take control over Jerusalam...fast forward 1000 years, Arabs are at again...but this time Arabs allowed a Christian power to divide the Khalifia. The sad thing is that the Christian power they trusted more than their muslim brethren the Ottomans.... gave Jerusalam which muslims died for 1000 years earlier to get back to Yehuds. Arabs fought, but they were humiliated in a 6 day way by the Yehuds...a humiliation that still goes on till today.


"There wasn't a single religious head that the whole muslim world relied on - there was only a Caliph in name, but not authority."


shafique... Compare the Muslim world under the Muslim Caliphat to todays muslim world under democracy, communism, dictatoriship, Nationalism, and Westernization?


Is this view of history correct, or did you have another model of 'pre-British' muslim world order that you were referring to?

Simple model ....There are no borders between muslims, No nationality exists between muslims, no racial differentiation between muslims.. the only thing that counts is Islam..

kanelli wrote:

shafique wrote:Lionheart,

You say you want to go back to before the British came - but wasn't that the Turkish empire? The muslim world was hardly united then and, if anything, the Arabs were marginalised in the Ottoman empire.

There wasn't a single religious head that the whole muslim world relied on - there was only a Caliph in name, but not authority.

Is this view of history correct, or did you have another model of 'pre-British' muslim world order that you were referring to?

Also, the British brought some order to the Hijaz Penninsular - for instance the pilgrims to Mecca were routinely robbed by the local Arabs until the British put a stop to this.

Wasalaam,
Shafique

I doubt that he can answer this because he likely only reads propaganda he gets from Islamic websites or groups. They blame everything on the West instead of realising that things were not perfect before and in fact, Arabs have collaborated with the West to get things that they wanted from the deal. We all know that imperialism is bad and the West has screwed people over - but they are not the only ones to screw people over. Groups of people are always collaborating with other groups of people to achieve aims - that is the way the world works. To give the impression that Arabs have always been innocently sitting in their villages and cities while being ravaged by the West is false and just plain ignorant.

Kanelli... Before you call my source propoganda take a deep look at the Western media that you listen and watch...if you don't see that as propoganda than I don't see why you would call my source as propoganda.


By the way if you don't want us blame the West...than there is simple solution to this problem...don't interfer with our affairs, don't tell us what rule of law we should follow, don't try imposing your political ideas on us..because it won't work...don't stand in our way of seeking unity in the Muslim world...

You need to seek medical help urgently to remove that huge "chip off your shoulder" Lionheart