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Are you kidding me? I sincerely hope you're not condoning the battery of women Nucleus - how about a swift punch in the nose?

Chocoholic wrote:Are you kidding me? I sincerely hope you're not condoning the battery of women Nucleus - how about a swift punch in the nose?

It doesn't say that watch the video

So the Koran says that if your wife steps out of line, withdraw the nocturnal pleasures and if she still doesn't behave, give her a slap.

It's just as well you don't live in the civilised world. She would have you arrested.

Sort of sad that a man needs to control a womans behavior my denying se.x.
Come on man, let her have her fun evenings out. No need to be such a control freak.

professorgreen wrote:So the Koran says that if your wife steps out of line, withdraw the nocturnal pleasures and if she still doesn't behave, give her a slap.

That would be one interpretation.

professorgreen wrote:It's just as well you don't live in the civilised world. She would have you arrested.

Maybe or maybe not. Domestic violence was suffered by around 867,000 people in 15.4 million incidents over one year in England and Wales, that is a very high number. http://www.news-medical.net/news/2004/06/15/2510.aspx

And there seems to be a link with alcohol and domestic violence.

Gilchrist et al.
9
, researching the characteristics of
domestic violence offenders, found that 73% of
perpetrators had been drinking at the time of the
assault. North American studies have also found
increased rates of violence after the perpetrator has
been drinking

http://www.clusterweb.org.uk/UserFiles/ ... _sheet.pdf

As for Islam, prophet (pubh) never hit any of his wives, even if we accept the above interpretation of that verse.

Regards,

Surely this video is good for a laugh? These things do not belong to this day and age. Nobody with any decency, Muslim or not, subscribes to these medieval and barbaric views.
As portrayed by these jokers.
Here is more comedy if you like that sort of thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... VtqGkwED1w

zonker wrote:These things do not belong to this day and age.

That's what the video says. But the sad reality is domestic violence is still common. Stats I've already posted.

But there is a big difference though, in modern societies domestic violence is prosecuted, in Muslim countries, it's condoned and supported by the Kuran.

In modern day societies, domestic violence is a major issue. Whereever it occurs it is a crime and should be punished.

I condemn all instances of domestic abuse - and find those instances where religion is misused to justify it particularly heinous. The Quran actually stipulates that domestic abuse is not allowed by stating the only case where a husband may administer corporal punishment to the wife - and there are built in safeguards to protect the wife against abuse - such as it has to be done after a series of other non-contact punishments are administered, giving the wife time to appeal and get help if there is abuse, and ultimately the lady has the right of divorce given by God. What Islam is clear about is that wife abuse is not allowed.

Where there are reliable stats, eg in Europe and US, we see that one in five women are subject to domestic abuse and one of the main contributers is alcohol. I have not seen any figures that domestic abuse by Muslims is as high as this - but even 1% incidence is too much.

I'm sure all reasonable people will share my abhorence of all domestic abuse - regardless of what excuse or religion the criminals use.

Cheers,
Shafique

I hate to say it but Zonker you forget that people who subscribe to this do not live 'in this day and age' their calender is 600 years behind the rest of us - says it all really.

The Quran actually stipulates that domestic abuse is not allowed by stating the only case where a husband may administer corporal punishment to the wife - and there are built in safeguards to protect the wife against abuse - such as it has to be done after a series of other non-contact punishments are administered,

States that it's not allowed but gives a case where it is? Forgive me, but surely that's a contradiction. It either is or isn't allowed.

Quran categorically states that wife battery/domestic abuse is not allowed.

Islam does allow for corporal and capital punishment though - with adequate safeguards.

Cheers,
Shafique

So you are claiming that a husband administering corporal punishment to his wife is not domestic abuse?

Yes.

The conditions set by God before corporal punishment can be meted out, effectively make this not domestic abuse.

I know of no Muslim man who has fulfilled the conditions laid down in Quran and invoked this verse - i.e. it is not used. It is only the last of a series of punishments.

Cheers,
Shafique

Oh come on Shaf, it's all complete BS. So women can be punished but no men? Ok, yeah right, just reconfirms my opinion that all this is tripe interpreted by men for the benefit of men - just makes them appear weak and pathetic in my eyes.

So why aren't men allowed to be punished by their wives then? Answer me that?

We live in a world of equality these days, these archaic attitudes are no longer required, wanted, nor needed.

Chocoholic wrote:So why aren't men allowed to be punished by their wives then?

Wives can punish a husband. Where did you get that idea? Technically, women don't have restriction to go through stages. But here is the thing, and summery of what the video says. Even though, domestic abuse was norm at that time (still is common even though it is against the law countries), Prophet (pbuh) never hit any of his wives in that time (hence this verse as multiple interpretation). I'll give you mine if you are interested.

He (Allah) created death and life that He may test you, to see which of you is the best in deeds. Certainly We have created man to be in distress. (Holy Quran 67:2)

Nucleus wrote: Even though, domestic abuse was norm at that time (still is common even though it is against the law countries), Prophet (pbuh) never hit any of his wives in that time (hence this verse as multiple interpretation). I'll give you mine if you are interested.

He (Allah) created death and life that He may test you, to see which of you is the best in deeds. Certainly We have created man to be in distress. (Holy Quran 67:2)

Just as well as he may have been accused of child beating as well as wife beating.

-- Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:26 pm --

shafique wrote:Yes.

The conditions set by God before corporal punishment can be meted out, effectively make this not domestic abuse.

I know of no Muslim man who has fulfilled the conditions laid down in Quran and invoked this verse - i.e. it is not used. It is only the last of a series of punishments.

Cheers,
Shafique

It's just amazing how things can be twisted to suit one's own purpose.
In the minds of normal people, giving one's spouse a slap is considered domestic abuse, and rightly so.
I doubt if most men would brag about punishing their wives in this manner, or vice versa. Most cowards cover up their deeds to those looking inwardly at their marriage.

Chocoholic wrote:Oh come on Shaf, it's all complete BS. So women can be punished but no men? Ok, yeah right, just reconfirms my opinion that all this is tripe interpreted by men for the benefit of men - just makes them appear weak and pathetic in my eyes.

Who say's men can't be punished? The Quranic punishments for crimes are the same for men as they are for women. Men also face corporal and capital punishment, but - as per your next question - not at the hands of their wives.

Chocoholic wrote:So why aren't men allowed to be punished by their wives then? Answer me that?

Because God doesn't give out silly laws that can't be implemented - and the same reason why most people don't think it is odd that we don't have mixed gender boxing matches. When we have equality in a boxing match or where society has equal numbers of women battering their men (1 in 5 in Europe) - then let's talk about equality and whether instructions that have regard to physical differences are archaic or not.

However, I feel you're missing the point. The Quranic verse does not give men the right to batter their wives - indeed, as I said, it actually sets the bar for corporal punishment by a husband so high that to my knowledge I know of no Muslim who has invoked this verse and hit their wives according to this verse.

Anyone hitting their wife out of anger or any other reason (and not after the series of punishments) is contravening the teachings of Islam. That's my big point. Whether you think God stating that men can exceptionally apply corporal punishment is archaic or not is a different discussion - I will argue that it isn't because men and women are still biologically different, but we can agree to disagree on this specific point.

The main point is that Islam does not allow men to hit their wives in a way that constitutes battery or domestic abuse.

Cheers,
Shafique

We are seeing Nucleus mention the high rate of abuse in England and Wales and now Shafique mentions Europe.
The OP describes how to beat your wife within the constraints of Islam.
Does anyone have any figures of the abuse metered out within Muslim families, or if we are talking about areas, say, Pakistan or the Middle East?
I wonder if Muslim women report abuse or would this be seen as stepping out of line again, which would warrant another slap to keep them walking the straight and narrow path?

As I stated, the stats in US and Europe are horrendous. The situation in the Mid East etc is less clear as the stats aren't as reliable.

Violence against women is a global phenomenon and a number of organisations do compile stats and highlight the issues. Here's a WHO report:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs239/en/

Slapping your wife/daughter/sister etc to keep her in line is against the commandments of Islam.

Cheers,
Shafique

And there was me thinking you were just trying to divert attention from the physical abuse metered out within the constraints of Islam to the physical abuse recordered in Western society.

I see now that the figures just aren't available for the abuse suffered by Muslim wives. Most probably because they don't report it. After all, it's not something women want to brag about is it?

I'm glad that you are now clear on what I was stating. I thought I made it clear that I condemn any and all violence against women, and even if the incidence of violence in Muslim countries was one 20th of the scale in Europe (1%) that would be 1% too much.

Whatever the reasons for domestic abuse, it is wrong. I also stated that there's no religious reason/justification for this abuse.

Now, whether the incidence in Muslim countries exceeds the 20% figure elsewhere is a different question. The official stats and opinions do show where the issues are, and I think that it should be tackled appropriately in each country. In the US and Europe, it is predominantly violence by a partner and alcohol is a major contributer. World wide, poverty and lack of education are a common thread - religion isn't.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I'm glad that you are now clear on what I was stating. I thought I made it clear that I condemn any and all violence against women, and even if the incidence of violence in Muslim countries was one 20th of the scale in Europe (1%) that would be 1% too much.

Whatever the reasons for domestic abuse, it is wrong. I also stated that there's no religious reason/justification for this abuse.

Now, whether the incidence in Muslim countries exceeds the 20% figure elsewhere is a different question. The official stats and opinions do show where the issues are, and I think that it should be tackled appropriately in each country. In the US and Europe, it is predominantly violence by a partner and alcohol is a major contributer. World wide, poverty and lack of education are a common thread - religion isn't.

Cheers,
Shafique

With respect, I'm not that interested in whether you condemn domestic violence or not. This topic isn't about you but about how to beat your wife within the constraints of Islam.
It is very noble of you to defend your brothers but unfortunately you cannot speak for all of them.
I see you are now introducing alcohol into the mix.
Muslim men do drink you know?

Did you watch the video? Did you disagree with what he presented?

I'm sure that some cases of domestic abuse by Muslims is alcohol related. I'm sure that others are just because they are misogynistic.

My point is that there is no Islamic justification for domestic abuse. That was what the video in the OP was saying after all.

Cheers,
Shafique

Yes I watched the video, why would you think I wouldn't have?

It was all double talk as far as I could see. And he is ugly.

Your posts which seem to imply that you disagree with the points he made about what Islam says on the subject led me to ask the question whether you watched and disagreed with the video.

Do you disagree with his clarifications and explanations?

Cheers,
Shafique