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The scientific paper is introduced at 8 min, the section of age of consent is around 13.40 and gives the age of consent throughout ages - being as low as 7.

Marriage being usual at puberty (marriage or consummation of a marriage will be at least above age of consent).

(Kanelli - see around 15.30 for 'silence is consent' explanation)

As for evidence of Arabian practice at the time (Jewish and otherwise) here are some references:

Marriage at the early years of puberty was acceptable in 7th century Arabia as it was the social norm in all Semitic cultures from the Israelites to the Arabs and all nations in between. According to the Talmud which the Jews regard as their “oral Torah”, Sanhedrin 76b clearly states that it is preferable that a woman be married when she has her first menses, and in Ketuvot 6a there are rules regarding sexual intercourse with girls who have not yet menstruated. This is further collaborated when Jim West, ThD, a Baptist minister, observes the following tradition of the Israelites:

The wife was to be taken from within the larger family circle (usually at the outset of puberty or around the age of 13) in order to maintain the purity of the family line.4

Puberty has always been a symbol of adulthood throughout history.

Puberty is defined as the age or period at which a person is first capable of sexual reproduction, in other eras of history, a rite or celebration of this landmark event was a part of the culture.5

The renowned sexologists, R.E.L. Masters and Allan Edwards, in their study of Afro-Asian sexual expression states the following

Today, in many parts of North Africa, Arabia, and India, girls are wedded and bedded between the ages of five and nine; and no self-respecting female remains unmarried beyond the age of puberty.6

Were There Any Objections to the Marriage of the Prophet(P) to `Aishah(R)?

The answer to this is no. There are absolutely no records from Muslim, secular, or any other historical sources which even implicitly display anything other than utter joy from all parties involved over this marriage. Nabia Abbott describes the marriage of `Aishah(R) to the Prophet(P) as follows.

In no version is there any comment made on the disparity of the ages between Mohammed and Aishah or on the tender age of the bride who, at the most, could not have been over ten years old and who was still much enamoured with her play.7

Even the well-known critical Orientalist, W. Montgomery Watt, said the following about the Prophet’s moral character:

From the standpoint of Muhammad’s time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad’s standards were higher than those of his time.8

Aside from the fact that no one was displeased with him or his actions, he was a paramount example of moral character in his society and time. Therefore, to judge the Prophet’s morality based on the standards of our society and culture today is not only absurd, but also unfair.

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives ... of-aishah/

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:The scientific paper is introduced at 8 min, the section of age of consent is around 13.40 and gives the age of consent throughout ages - being as low as 7.

Nowhere is it mentioned that it was considered normal in 7th non-Muslim Arabia for a 50+ man to have se.x with a 9 year old. You must have misunderstood the question a few times already while dancing around the embarassing issue:

Any proof, that in non-Muslim culture in the 7th century Arabian Peninsula it was considered ok for a 50+ man to have se.x with a 9 year old?

Up until now, I have seen none. I'll take it pedophilia was introduced by Muhammed in Arabia.

FD, I was quite precise in my statement:

shafique wrote:Marriageable age was puberty in Arabia - and that applied to Jews, pagans and Muslims.

This is a statement, and I don't say that this fact is directly in the video. It is directly in the references I've given you above - I am therefore stating a fact.

The next sentence is precise too:

The evidence regarding puberty and intellectual maturity is in the video - and referenced.

This is in the video - stating when puberty and intellectual maturity takes place.

You now have evidence for my first statement, and the video reference for the second sentence.

Happy? I thought it was clear what I wrote - but I can see why you may have thought I said the video contained the information about marriage puberty in Arabia (it speaks of age of consent etc, but not Arabia specifically.. that is in my refs above).

Let me help you out by isolating the bit of info you are asking about:

Marriage at the early years of puberty was acceptable in 7th century Arabia as it was the social norm in all Semitic cultures from the Israelites to the Arabs and all nations in between. According to the Talmud which the Jews regard as their “oral Torah”, Sanhedrin 76b clearly states that it is preferable that a woman be married when she has her first menses, and in Ketuvot 6a there are rules regarding sexual intercourse with girls who have not yet menstruated.

Arabia, 7th century, marriage, early years after puberty. Can't be clearer.

'the social norm'

i.e. your theory is not correct.

Cheers,
Shafique

I still donot see any reference where it was thought ok for a 50+ man to have se.x with a 9 year old in non-Muslim 7th century Arabia. Muhammed must have been the for runner of pedophilia.

Did you read the references?

Is your confusion the fact that the references are about marriage between women past puberty and men, and the fact that Aisha was mature at the time of the marriage?

Or is it that quote from a historian who says:

From the standpoint of Muhammad’s time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad’s standards were higher than those of his time.8

'His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way'. That doesn't fit with your theory now, does it!

But why let facts get in the way of a belief, eh?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Is your confusion the fact that the references are about marriage between women past puberty and men, and the fact that Aisha was mature at the time of the marriage?

My 'confusion' is that somebody can really think that a 50+ man deflowering a 9 year old, is morally correct and not harmfull to the 9 year old.

I happen to agree with the experts who have looked into the matter and concluded that your view is not appropriate.

From the standpoint of Muhammad’s time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way.

You obviously don't agree and want to maintain the 'allegations' - but on the point on whether his contemporaries thought it morally defective - the historian Watt is quite clear.

That's what I call evidence.

Cheers,
Shafique

Watch this video, al shafique sounds exactly like Anjem Choudary, same arguments, same religion.
We see where are his values, not only al shafique supports Hamas but also he defends Anjem Choudari.

FD, there is no mention of age gap between bride and groom, but there are rules that the bride and groom have to have reached s.exual and mental maturity. They likely thought that a 53 year old and 9 year old were equal if they both fit that criteria, but I would disagree.

and that applied to Jews, pagans and Muslims. The evidence regarding puberty and intellectual maturity is in the video - and referenced.

You embarrass yourself when you rely on missionary websites for your arguments. Jewish girls were typically married between fourteen and eighteen. I suggest you read actual scholarly materials on the subject instead of relying on cherry picked quotes from dot com websites.

As for evidence of Arabian practice at the time (Jewish and otherwise) here are some references:

Your article hardly provides evidence on the marriageable age of females in Arabia. Besides a quote from a Baptist minister - that is irrelevant to Arabia - there's no actual evidence presented.

Let me help you out by isolating the bit of info you are asking about:

Let me help you out, your paragraph's claims on marriageable age in Arabia are unreferenced and conjecture.

'His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way'. That doesn't fit with your theory now, does it!

Is this seriously your argument for when the marriageable age of females in Arabia is or that it was the norm for a 53 year old man to have s.e.xual relations with a nine year old?

herve, herve, herve... when will you learn?

In this thread you were certain a hoax was real, insisting several times that it was true AFTER it was shown to you it was a complete fabrication.

Now you are quoting the joker Anjem Choudry as if he knew what he was talking about. You have no excuse - Anjem has been exposed for what he is on this forum many times (he's our equivalent of the Westboro Baptist Church - except they have more credibility than he does - they actually have a church!)

Here's a the links to the latest thread about Anjem:
dubai-chat/andy-choudary-not-taken-seriously-t47385.html#p386783

Despite eh's denials - the fact still remains, Islam does not condone forced marriages - and consummating a marriage when the lady is mentally and physically mature is not paedophillia.

It is interesting to contrast the conclusion of Watt (someone critical of Islam) on the subject, with the loon desperation to avoid the evidence. Watt concludes:

From the standpoint of Muhammad’s time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad’s standards were higher than those of his time.

We have to choose whether to agree with his conclusion or the loon version. I choose the Orientalist, anti-Islam historian's conclusion - as it is based on evidence, and on this he is right. I disagree with some of his other interpretations of historical events - but he's just reporting the facts that are there for all to read.

Cheers,
Shafique

Pedophilia is permitted under Islamic law. This practice is sanctioned by both the Qur'an and the Hadith. In the Qur'an we find it in verse 65:4, where marrying and having sex with pre-pubescent girls is permitted after a 3 months time. Muhammad himself has been recorded by authentic Islamic sources explaining the meaning of this verse as "those who never had menses", their prescribed period is three months before puberty. It is the Islamic texts themselves which hold the power, and Islamic scholars in the modern era still agree that marrying and having sex with pre-pubescent girls is permitted. For example; the influential Muslim scholar and thinker Syed Abul A'ala Maududi (1903 - 1979) commented on verse 65:4 and those who attempt to deny scripture: "....making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible.

Because of its many endorsements within Islam, pedophilic marriages are common practice in many Islamic countries, and Islamic authorities are left powerless:

Because this happened to the Prophet, we cannot tell people that it is prohibited to marry at an early age.
Sheikh Hamoud Hashim al-Tharihi

In conclusion, the 3 months period is obviously a pregnancy observation period, and if there is a waiting time of three months for a pre pubescent girl before she can get married or have $ex, it means obviously that she could have $ex before. It is an indisputable proof that islam allows $ex with youn girls.

I am thinking about the introduction of a Muslim translator. One entry will be:

child marriage = pedophilia

Another one will be:

justice = sharia law

Loons and their theories!

Compare and contrast with the conclusion of a historian and the wild theory that Islam condones paedophillia.

The problem for herve is that God says in the Quran (and the references are in the video), that forced marriages are not allowed. The evidence is also that historically, and today, marriages are only consummated after puberty - so again, Islam does not condone paedophillia.

Facts not hype.

Herve, you were convinced that the internet hoax was real:

herve wrote:You repeat, you repeat, like a parrot, because you are desperate.
It was no hoax, it was real, muslims DO marry little girls:

But it seems if I present you the evidence often enough, you realise the truth and accept it. I hope it doesn't take as many repetitions of the facts to get you to realise your latest error.

Cheers,
Shafique

It is simple al shafique, instead of repeating always the same thing like a parrot: show me where in Sharia law pedophilia is sanctionned.
You do understand the challenge, if it is not sanctioned then it is not against the law, and therefore it is condoned.

Any s.ex outside of marriage is against Islam. God is clear about that.

In Iran, paedophillia is explicitly a crime - and this is Sharia law.

Elsewhere any paedophile will be punished for breaking the rules on s.ex outside of marriage.

I'm not sure why you are still confused herve. The Quran talks of a marriageable age (reference in video), and Islamic law and practice is that the parties must be mature (se.xually and intellectually) when marriage is consummated.

Just imagining that Islam allows paedophillia seems to be a particular loon delusion. You were adamanat that the hoax was true.. but with repetition it seems you have now discovered you were wrong. How long will it take this time?

Cheers,
Shafique

the fact still remains, Islam does not condone forced marriages

I'm a big fan of Alex Crawford who reports from the middle east, mainly, for Sky news.
Sky is advertising a programme she has done about Afghanistan where a 12 year old girl was so desperate to get away from her forced marriage that she poured petrol over her legs and set fire to them in a cry for help.

I found this short piece that Alex Crawford did about Afghanistan's womans prison. She says the women are there because they have broken strict Islamic laws. She talks about two young girls who are there because they objected to their violent forced marriages to older men. One young girl was married off to a 65 year old man who raped and beat her and after giving birth to four children, ran away. She has been told she will stay in prison until she agrees to go back to her husband.
The other 18 year old girl has been disowned by her family and has agreed to return to her forced marriage in sheer desperation.

So, if forced marriages are against Islamic law, then why are these girls in prison?

The issue of some tribal cultures carrying out unIslamic practices was brought up quite early in this thread.

Indeed, there are Muslim organisations at the forefront of tackling these issues - and I'm sure that all those who are really interested in stopping the practice (rather than fantasising that Islam condones these crimes) will take on board the fact the Islamic rulings on the matter (that forced marriages not allowed).

Cheers,
Shafique

Surely if forced marriages were not condonned then one wouldn't be jailed for objecting to them?

Seems simple enough to me.

shafique wrote:Any s.ex outside of marriage is against Islam. God is clear about that.
Shafique

TRUE! THAT S WHY THEY GET AWAY WITH IT BY MARRYING SEVERAL WIVES.

shafique wrote:In Iran, paedophillia is explicitly a crime - and this is Sharia law.
Shafique

HOW IS IT AN EXPLICIT CRIME, SHOW ME THE ARTICLE AND THE PENALTY. SHOULD I REMIND YOU THAT AYATOLAH KHOMEINY COMMITTED PEDOPHELIA

shafique wrote:Elsewhere any paedophile will be punished for breaking the rules on s.ex outside of marriage.
Shafique

THAT S WHY MOSLEMS MARRY LITTLE GIRLS SO THEY GET AWAY WITH THE LAWS ON $EX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE. HOWEVER IT IS INTERESTING TO SEE WHERE YOUR VALUES ARE , PUTTING ON THE SAME LEVEL ($EX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE) WHETHER IT IS WITH AN ADULT WOMAN OR A LITTLE GIRL.

shafique wrote:The Quran talks of a marriageable age (reference in video), and Islamic law and practice is that the parties must be mature (se.xually and intellectually) when marriage is consummated.
Shafique

A 9 YEARS OLD GIRL IS NOT MARRIAGABLE.....PERIOD...MATURE OR NOT.

I CHALLENGED YOU TO SHOW ARTICLES OR WHERE EXACTLY SHARIA LAW EXPLICITLY PENALISES PEDOPHILIA. AND YOU FAILED.
WE ALL KNOW WHAT ARE THE PENALITIES FOR THIEVES, ADULTERS, I AM ASKING HOW SHARIA PUNISHES PEDOPHELIA, NOT $EX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE BECAUSE IT IS A DIFFERENT ISSUE

shafique wrote: You were adamanat that the hoax was true.. Cheers,
Shafique

American Heritage Dictionary:
Hoax: An act intended to deceive or trick.

do you mean the whole ceremony was a trick?

gertrude, the internet hoax has been covered here:
dubai-politics-talk/paedophillia-hoax-islamophobia-propaganda-t47813.html

You'll see that that hoax was indeed intended to deceive, and herve was adamant it was true.

Herve - paedophillia is a crime punishable by death in Iran. You are the one who has to reconcile this fact with your wrong belief that Islam condones paedophillia.


Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote: Herve - paedophillia is a crime punishable by death in Iran. You are the one who has to reconcile this fact with your wrong belief that Islam condones paedophillia.
Cheers,
Shafique

Easy said, where did you get that, without a link or a direct quote from Sharia law, your words mean nothing.
Again, show me where Sharia law punishes pedophelia.

Here is the International Center for Research on Women's info and campaign about child marriage - http://www.icrw.org/what-we-do/adolesce ... d-marriage

Child Marriage Around the world

If present trends continue, 100 million girls will marry over the next decade. That’s 25,000 girls married every day for the next 10 years.

Poverty and Child Marriage

Girls living in poor households are almost twice as likely to marry before 18 than girls in higher income households.

More than half of the girls in Bangladesh, Mali, Mozambique and Niger are married before age 18. In these same countries, more than 75 percent of people live on less than $2 a day.

Education and Child Marriage

Girls with higher levels of schooling are less likely to marry as children. In Mozambique, some 60 percent of girls with no education are married by 18, compared to 10 percent of girls with secondary schooling and less than one percent of girls with higher education.

Educating adolescent girls has been a critical factor in increasing the age of marriage in a number of developing countries, including Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Taiwan and Thailand.

Religion and Child Marriage

No one religious affiliation was associated with child marriage, according to a 2007 ICRW study. Rather, a variety of religions are associated with child marriage in countries throughout the world.

Rank Country Name % girls married before 18
1 Niger 74.5
2 Chad 71.5
3 Mali 70.6
4 Bangladesh 66.2
5 Guinea 63.1
6 Central African Republic 57
7 Mozambique 55.9
8 Burkina Faso 51.9
9 Nepal 51.4
10 Ethiopia 49.2
11 Malawi 48.9
12 Madagascar 48.2
13 Sierra Leone 47.9
14 Cameroon 47.2
15 Eritrea 47
16 Uganda 46.3
17 India 44.5
18 Nicaragua 43.3
19 Zambia 41.6
20 Tanzania 41.1

http://www.icrw.org/child-marriage-facts-and-figures

ICRW (2010). Analysis of Demographic and Health Survey (DHS) data. Most recent surveys for all DHS surveyed countries. Rankings are based on data in which women ages 20 – 24 reported being married by age 18.

That's pretty clear evidence kanelli.

I'm glad that we've now established that the charge of paedophillia being allowed in Islam is solely limited to child marriages - as no one disputes that Islam does not allow s.ex outside of marriage.

Herve - you can easily find out the punishment for s.ex outiside of marriage - of which paedophillia is included, in Iran and elsewhere. (Just Google it).

As for the age at which marriage can take place, again, I refer herve to the video which deals with this specific point and shows that consummation is allowed when both are mature - again no room for the argument that Islam allows paedophillia.

And, let's not forget that forced marriages are also not allowed in Islam - which is yet another layer of safeguards against paedophillia.

Where Muslims are committing paedophillia - they are doing outside the rules of Islam.

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli wrote:No one religious affiliation was associated with child marriage, according to a 2007 ICRW study. Rather, a variety of religions are associated with child marriage in countries throughout the world.

Rank Country Name % girls married before 18
1 Niger 74.5
2 Chad 71.5
3 Mali 70.6
4 Bangladesh 66.2
5 Guinea 63.1
6 Central African Republic 57
7 Mozambique 55.9
8 Burkina Faso 51.9
9 Nepal 51.4
10 Ethiopia 49.2
11 Malawi 48.9
12 Madagascar 48.2
13 Sierra Leone 47.9
14 Cameroon 47.2
15 Eritrea 47
16 Uganda 46.3
17 India 44.5
18 Nicaragua 43.3
19 Zambia 41.6
20 Tanzania 41.1

What religions would that variety consist of?

shafique wrote:I'm glad that we've now established that the charge of paedophillia being allowed in Islam is solely limited to child marriages -
Shafique

You just confirmed that pedophelia is allowed in islam if the victim child is married and if the perpetrator happens to be the husband. Therefore islam condones pedophelia

shafique wrote:Herve - you can easily find out the punishment for s.ex outiside of marriage - of which paedophillia is included, in Iran and elsewhere.
Shafique

No I can't find anything, that s why I have been asking you to show me the article of sharia that provides punishment for pedophilia, not $ex outside marriage, that s different, but you fail to show me.
Beside , $ex outside marriage and pedophelia in the free world are 2 entirely different things.
You just confirm that muslim law does not provide punishment for a pervert who has $ex with a 9 year old girl being that if she is his wife it is not considered a crime.
In the absence of punishment for pedophelia, one can tell that islam allows pedophelia.

Bora Bora wrote:

kanelli wrote:No one religious affiliation was associated with child marriage, according to a 2007 ICRW study. Rather, a variety of religions are associated with child marriage in countries throughout the world.

Rank Country Name % girls married before 18
1 Niger 74.5
2 Chad 71.5
3 Mali 70.6
4 Bangladesh 66.2
5 Guinea 63.1
6 Central African Republic 57
7 Mozambique 55.9
8 Burkina Faso 51.9
9 Nepal 51.4
10 Ethiopia 49.2
11 Malawi 48.9
12 Madagascar 48.2
13 Sierra Leone 47.9
14 Cameroon 47.2
15 Eritrea 47
16 Uganda 46.3
17 India 44.5
18 Nicaragua 43.3
19 Zambia 41.6
20 Tanzania 41.1

What religions would that variety consist of?

Bora Bora, what was stopping you from checking the CIA World Factbook to answer your own question? https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... index.html

I was quoting the website. It wasn't my opinion that "no religious affiliation was associated with child marriage", it was their findings after their research. I've fed you the data on the religious breakdown below. An uncritical superficial look would register that Islam is a majority religion in some of these countries. However, you need to consider that child marriages were happening in those countries across all religious groups, not exclusively the Muslims. What is the GDP for each country? What about access to education? How do those correlate? According to the ICRW research there is a high correlation. I see a lot of impoverished African countries. Yes, some of impoverished nations on this list happen to have Muslim majorities, but as you can see from this list, a lot do not and they still see high rates of child marriage. If the issue was Islam, shouldn't all Islamic countries be on this list instead of countries with few to no Muslims?

Niger - Muslim 80%, other (includes indigenous beliefs and Christian) 20%
Chad - Muslim 53.1%, Catholic 20.1%, Protestant 14.2%, animist 7.3%, other 0.5%, unknown 1.7%, atheist 3.1% (1993 census)
Mali - Muslim 90%, Christian 1%, indigenous beliefs 9%
Bangladesh- Muslim 89.5%, Hindu 9.6%, other 0.9% (2004)
Guinea- Muslim 85%, Christian 8%, indigenous beliefs 7%
Central African Republic - indigenous beliefs 35%, Protestant 25%, Roman Catholic 25%, Muslim 15%
note: animistic beliefs and practices strongly influence the Christian majority
Mozambique - Catholic 28.4%, Protestant 27.7% (Zionist Christian 15.5%, Evangelical Pentecostal 10.9%, Anglican 1.3%), Muslim 17.9%, other 7.2%, none 18.7% (2007 census)
Burkina Faso - Muslim 60.5%, Catholic 19%, animist 15.3%, Protestant 4.2%, other 0.6%, none 0.4%
Nepal - Hindu 80.6%, Buddhist 10.7%, Muslim 4.2%, Kirant 3.6%, other 0.9% (2001 census)
Ethiopia - Orthodox 43.5%, Muslim 33.9%, Protestant 18.6%, traditional 2.6%, Catholic 0.7%, other 0.7% (2007 Census)
Malawi - Christian 82.7%, Muslim 13%, other 1.9%, none 2.5% (2008 census)
Madagascar - indigenous beliefs 52%, Christian 41%, Muslim 7%
Sierra Leone - Muslim 60%, Christian 10%, indigenous beliefs 30%
Cameroon - indigenous beliefs 40%, Christian 40%, Muslim 20%
Eritrea - Muslim, Coptic Christian, Roman Catholic, Protestant
Uganda - Roman Catholic 41.9%, Protestant 42% (Anglican 35.9%, Pentecostal 4.6%, Seventh-Day Adventist 1.5%), Muslim 12.1%, other 3.1%, none 0.9% (2002 census)
India - Hindu 80.5%, Muslim 13.4%, Christian 2.3%, Sikh 1.9%, other 1.8%, unspecified 0.1% (2001 census)
Nicaragua - Roman Catholic 58.5%, Protestant 28.2% (Evangelical 21.6%, Moravian 1.6%), Jehovah's Witnesses 0.9%, other 1.7%, none 15.7% (2005 census)
Zambia - Christian 50%-75%, Muslim and Hindu 24%-49%, indigenous beliefs 1%
Tanzania - mainland - Christian 30%, Muslim 35%, indigenous beliefs 35%; Zanzibar - more than 99% Muslim

Based on your figures for child marriages by the countries you provided, calculated by religion we have:
Muslims 54%
Christians 34%
Hindu: 12%
Now that it shows that Muslims bear the crushing majority for marrying children Shaf is going to change his mind and not find it evidence anymore

-- Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:12 pm --

shafique wrote:That's pretty clear evidence kanelli.

Cheers,
Shafique

gertrude wrote:Based on your figures for child marriages by the countries you provided, calculated by religion we have:
Muslims 54%
Christians 34%
Hindu: 12%
Now that it shows that Muslims bear the crushing majority for marrying children Shaf is going to change his mind and not find it evidence anymore

-- Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:12 pm --

shafique wrote:That's pretty clear evidence kanelli.

Cheers,
Shafique

Ha ha ha! Nice stats. How on earth did you come up with that?