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Flying Dutchman wrote:There are two groups of people in this discussion:

-Those that consider a 50+ man having se.x with a 9 year old pedophilia
-Those that donot consider a 50+ man having se.x with a 9 year old pedophilia.

The first group are made out as loons by poster Shafique.

So where do I fit? I see the Quran, Hadith and Islamic laws that talk about what is considered se.xual maturity and the age of consent. According to the one paper, there is scientific evidence of an age of se.xual maturity that shows that thousands of years ago 9 year olds were already menstruating. In the society back then children had to grow up quickly and make their own way in life, unlike today. Especially girls were not spending time in school and there was no additional criteria of someone being mature enough after reaching a certain level of schooling, like we have today. With all of this evidence I can see why young people were likely married off and why 9 year olds were likely have se.x. However, what I don't agree with is why much older men were paired off with such young brides. I'm interested in whether there is anything in the Quran that discusses a proper age range for couples marrying. Otherwise I still have to agree that either there is an element of pedophilia going on, or it is a matter of possession/dominance and use of a female, or perhaps both. In any case, it seems quite immoral for decades older men to be marrying and having se.x with very young brides.

See herve still believes the internet hoax despite the fact it is a total fabrication. The brides weren't filmed, and these girls were relatives of the grooms - bridesmaids, not brides.

The big thing point is that Muslims are aware of a problem, and don't ignore the issue of some tribes who do practice forced marriages.

The point is that Islam does not condone forced marriages. The loons have it the wrong way round - they are blaming Islam for the actions of a minority who are going against the teachings of Islam.

The difference is that evidence for Islam's clear teachings and explanations for historical political marriages (which are even then only consummated after physical and mental maturity) has been presented. The loon side presents internet hoaxes as fact.

Cheers,
Shafique

so...muhammad the pedophile who married a 6 years old is a hoax too?

Has the penny finally dropped herve?

Do you now realise how silly you are to claim the hoax was real?

(As for the political wedding, I refer you to the video link above - let me know which particular part of the evidence presented you think is false/misleading.)

Cheers,
Shafique

so...muhammad the pedophile who married a 6 years old is a hoax too?

You fall under the same patern than any Muslims who proudly display Islam's particulars, only to deny them once they become counterproductive.

In what way is referring you to evidence and asking to discuss the points raised evading the question?

The evidence to answer the question whether the marriage to Aisha represents paedophillia (as you believe) or a political marriage that was consummated when the bride reached physical and mental maturity (as the evidence shows) has been given to you. We can discuss the evidence, or you can just repeat your belief.

You were wrong about the Hamas internet hoax, so perhaps you may want to review the evidence this time round - it may save you some time and considerable embarrassment.

Cheers,
Shafique

So you agree that a 50 old man be sexually active with a 6 old girl and preforming $ex between her thighs, like muhammad the pedohpile.

Another hoax for you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GRHD7nm ... re=related

No, I don't agree with your belief - as the evidence shows you are wrong in your conclusions.

I'm happy to discuss the evidence that contradicts your view. You seem to be avoiding this.

You were wrong to believe in the obvious hoax, so perhaps you need a bit more time to realise your error here.

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli wrote:According to the one paper, there is scientific evidence of an age of se.xual maturity that shows that thousands of years ago 9 year olds were already menstruating.

Yes, the article speaks of an era when Neandertahlers were still walking the earth.

kanelli wrote: With all of this evidence I can see why young people were likely married off and why 9 year olds were likely have se.x. However, what I don't agree with is why much older men were paired off with such young brides. I'm interested in whether there is anything in the Quran that discusses a proper age range for couples marrying. Otherwise I still have to agree that either there is an element of pedophilia going on, or it is a matter of possession/dominance and use of a female, or perhaps both. In any case, it seems quite immoral for decades older men to be marrying and having se.x with very young brides.

Pedophilia is more than age of consent and the age of the child, it also involves an age difference. A 13 and a 14 year old having intercourse are not considered pedophiles by the medical definition. A 50+ man with a 9 year old is! You would think a person who is the exemplar for the rest of humankind would be more careful/thoughtful with his examples.

Age of consent is a mute argument in Islam anyways, as the silence of the child is considered consent.

Paedophillia is actually a s.exual attraction for under age girls. Hugh Heffner and other older men who have relations with women who are decades younger, aren't usually called paedophiles if the ladies are s.exually and mentally mature (i.e. are physically and mentally women, not girls).

The canard that the Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, was a paedophile does not stand up to even a cursory scrutiny. Firstly, he was faithful to his first wife who was 15 years older than he was. He married many times after that - with widows, divorcees and politically motivated marriages. Aisha was the youngest bride, and the marriage was not consumated until she was physically and mentally mature. She herself has given many accounts of her marriage - there is a wealth of information out there.

FD is right, Muslims do indeed take Muhammad, pbuh, as a model for mankind. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Muslim men DO NOT go around lusting after girls and then say Islam says we can do it.. we don't, as much as loons wish it were the case.

The evidence presented in the video shows that whilst Aisha was a child on marriage, the marriage was only consummated years later and that as per Islamic teachings, she was mentally and physically a woman.

The charge of paedophillia can only stand IF Aisha was not mentally and physically a woman when the marriage was consummated.

Given that Muslims do believe in the evidence that Aisha was mature, it follows that Muslims and Islam do not condone paedophillia.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Aisha was the youngest bride, and the marriage was not consumated until she was physically and mentally mature.

She was still playing with dolls.

That's quite worrying that you consider a nine year old child to be mentally and physically a woman.

I wouldn't consider Beth to be that and she is about to turn 16. I would take a gun to any 50 year old man who approached her.

What is more worrying to me is the speed and willingness to accept clear hoaxes as fact, and to refuse to actually acknowledge/discuss evidence produced.

Just because you want to believe that Aisha wasn't mature when the marriage was consummated, does not mean the evidence isn't there and should be ignored.

The uncomfortable fact for you is that Islam does not allow forced marriages, s.ex outside of marriage and that marriageable age is in the Quran, and means only mature women are to be married. There's no room for paedophillia.

Now, if you want to examine the evidence and discuss - let's do so. Otherwise, you're just trolling.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman wrote:

kanelli wrote:According to the one paper, there is scientific evidence of an age of se.xual maturity that shows that thousands of years ago 9 year olds were already menstruating.

Yes, the article speaks of an era when Neandertahlers were still walking the earth.

kanelli wrote: With all of this evidence I can see why young people were likely married off and why 9 year olds were likely have se.x. However, what I don't agree with is why much older men were paired off with such young brides. I'm interested in whether there is anything in the Quran that discusses a proper age range for couples marrying. Otherwise I still have to agree that either there is an element of pedophilia going on, or it is a matter of possession/dominance and use of a female, or perhaps both. In any case, it seems quite immoral for decades older men to be marrying and having se.x with very young brides.

Pedophilia is more than age of consent and the age of the child, it also involves an age difference. A 13 and a 14 year old having intercourse are not considered pedophiles by the medical definition. A 50+ man with a 9 year old is! You would think a person who is the exemplar for the rest of humankind would be more careful/thoughtful with his examples.

Age of consent is a mute argument in Islam anyways, as the silence of the child is considered consent.

Have you read the research paper FD? The video shows that the research paper covers more ages through history than when Neanderthals were walking the earth.

Can a 50+ man become se.xually attracted to a 9 year old who has hit puberty, has curves, breasts and menstruates? Maybe! It is a strange concept for me, because I don't see many 9 yr olds who look like that. Apparently my own mother hit puberty early, she was 10, had curves and breasts already. She said she had many boys, including teens, interested in her because of that. No 50 year olds hitting on her as far as I know. She was pregnant with me at 16 (my dad was 18). For attraction there has to be more than just physical beauty there, and I don't see how 50+ year old men could be attracted to a 9 yr old. However, in arranged marriages, attraction doesn't really matter, especially if the family is arranging the marriage for political reasons. The basic problem is that women are treated like objects that can be used for bargaining. Older men may want a young bride for many reasons, including se.xual attraction to young girls (pedophilia), or simply because they want a wife they can completely dominate, and all they have to do is find a family with a young girl and make a strategic bargain to obtain her for marriage. No 9 yr old girl would ever be attracted to a 50+ guy. She would not want to be married to someone the same age as her grandfather, nor have se.x happily with such an old man. It would be a wifely duty and that's all. I'd hardly call that fair to young girls. So, I agree that a marriage like Muhammed and Aisha's is not a good example to give humankind.

Where did you get the part about a girl's silence being her consent? Is that in the Quran or Hadith? Please post the relevant passage.

kanelli wrote:Where did you get the part about a girl's silence being her consent? Is that in the Quran or Hadith? Please post the relevant passage.

It is in the video Shafique posted several times. Watch it.

That is just another canard, and is addressed in the video - the point being that consent is required - and in the case of some cultures - consent is given when one remains silent (and therefore if one does not wish to consent, you say something). It is just like some cultures a shake of the head means yes, but others a nod.

The point is, I repeat, that consent is required. The form of the consent can vary according to custom - and in this case, the bride-to-be knows that silence is a 'yes' and has to give this consent of her own free will.

The hadith is quite specific - and not one that can be generalised.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 9.101 Narrated byAisha
Allah's Apostle said, "It is essential to have the consent of a virgin (for the marriage). I said, "A virgin feels shy." The Prophet; said, "Her silence means her consent." Some people said, "If a man falls in love with an orphan slave girl or a virgin and she refuses (him) and then he makes a trick by bringing two false witnesses to testify that he has married her, and then she attains the age of puberty and agrees to marry him and the judge accepts the false witness and the husband knows that the witnesses were false ones, he may consummate his marriage."

Cheers,
Shafique

It doesn't take away the fact that a 50 year old man having s.ex with a 9 year old girl is dead wrong. The fact that she may have started her periods is irrelevent.

Bethsmum wrote:It doesn't take away the fact that a 50 year old man having s.ex with a 9 year old girl is dead wrong.

What a loon thing to say.

Facts and evidence BM! Facts and evidence! Are you allergic to facts and evidence?

Whether Aisha was s.exually and mentally mature does make a big difference. If she wasn't, then the consummation of the marriage would be against the teachings of Islam given by God.

If, as the evidence given shows, she was physically and mentally a mature woman, then the allegations of paedophillia are baseless. If she thought and was physically like a 19 year old lady is today (say), then the consummation of the marriage is normal for that time.

The discussion therefore is whether Aisha was mature or not. The fact that the marriage was consummated after a number of years is indication that they followed the custom and waited for her to mature (mentally and s.exually). The evidence is there.

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum wrote:It doesn't take away the fact that a 50 year old man having s.ex with a 9 year old girl is dead wrong. The fact that she may have started her periods is irrelevent.

So if 9 year-olds hit puberty and have se.xual hormones flowing and begin to show interest in boys, you don't think that back then the traditional families would want to marry their daughter off so that she wouldn't have se.x before marriage? I can see them doing it. Were girls back then playing with dolls, or were they working the fields and cooking and cleaning the house etc.? What did people expect of wives in those days - have babies and cook and clean. It still isn't right for decades older men to be taking such young brides. I completely gag at the thought of a 50+ guy having se.x with a 9 yr old. It doesn't change the fact that back in those days where puberty seems to have come earlier and childhood was shorter, the definition of se.xual and mental maturity was different than today. Nowadays getting married at 16 or 17 seems the bare minimum. The majority of Muslims today would seem to agree and they don't marry off their kids at 6 years old.

I'm still not comfortable with this Hadith you quoted,

shafique wrote:Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 9.101 Narrated byAisha
Allah's Apostle said, "It is essential to have the consent of a virgin (for the marriage). I said, "A virgin feels shy." The Prophet; said, "Her silence means her consent." Some people said, "If a man falls in love with an orphan slave girl or a virgin and she refuses (him) and then he makes a trick by bringing two false witnesses to testify that he has married her, and then she attains the age of puberty and agrees to marry him and the judge accepts the false witness and the husband knows that the witnesses were false ones, he may consummate his marriage."

Just as it was a bad example for 53 yr old Muhammed to marry and have se.xual relations with 9 yr old Aisha, it is also a bad example to say that silence is a means of consent. Everyone knows that in conservative cultures the women tend to be more subservient. A lot is going on inside a woman's head that is masked by silence on the outside for fear of punishment by others. When you are talking about young and less worldly girls, it is even more so. Allah should have stipulated a proper age gap between bride and groom, and should have encouraged both partners in marriage to give their honest consent verbally. There is too much room for interpretation, and in both of these cases too much room for religiously sanctioning the abuse of young females.

kanelli wrote:So if 9 year-olds hit puberty and have se.xual hormones flowing and begin to show interest in boys, you don't think that back then the traditional families would want to marry their daughter off so that she wouldn't have se.x before marriage? I can see them doing it. Were girls back then playing with dolls, or were they working the fields and cooking and cleaning the house etc.? What did people expect of wives in those days - have babies and cook and clean. It still isn't right for decades older men to be taking such young brides. I completely gag at the thought of a 50+ guy having se.x with a 9 yr old. It doesn't change the fact that back in those days where puberty seems to have come earlier and childhood was shorter, the definition of se.xual and mental maturity was different than today. Nowadays getting married at 16 or 17 seems the bare minimum. The majority of Muslims today would seem to agree and they don't marry off their kids at 6 years old.

There is absolutely no way on God's earth that anyone can justify child s.ex abuse and I'm surprised that you are even attempting it.
I do agree that the Muslims I know wouldn't marry their kids off at 6 but how do you know what goes on in Afghanistan (for example) and the back waters of Pakistan?

I certainly don't justify any form of child s.ex abuse, and I too am concerned and would condemn any Afghanistani or Pakistani marrying off their young daughters by force, or before the age of 16 say.

But that is the point - Muslims don't view the marriage of Aisha to Muhammad, pbuh, as a licence for paedophillia or forced marriages. Islam is clear - this is not allowed.

It is only herve and caps, and their like, who try and mislead people into believing that Islam DOES allow, rather than condemn, these acts.

Cheers,
Shafique

I certainly don't justify any form of child s.ex abuse

In what civilized culture is a 53 year old man having intercourse with a 9 year old child not considered a form of child s.ex abuse?

European, Asian, Chinese, African and everywhere else at the time of the marriage and consummation of the marriage between a fully mature woman and her husband.

Try and keep up eh. I know you want to ignore evidence and facts, but playing dumb (whilst coming naturally to you) is not endearing.

Cheers,
Shafique

Sorry, I think you typed your response out too fast making it incomprehensible, but how does your attempt at a reply answer my question whether a 53 year old man having relations with a 9 year old child does not fall under the category of child s.ex abuse?

It doesn't fall under the category of s.ex abuse because in the 7th century having s.ex with one's sexually mature and intellectually mature wife wasn't child abuse - by definition, a s.exually and intellectually mature female is no longer a child.

That's where the science comes in. I take you didn't look up the information. That would explain your confusion.

Cheers,
Shafique

Any proof, that in non-Muslim culture in the 7th century Arabian Peninsula it was considered ok for a 50+ man to have se.x with a 9 year old? Or was this something that was introduced by Muhammed.

A religious crazee proclaiming a nine year old isn't a child.

What nutters like you won't justify in the name of your religion.

-- Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:22 pm --

Flying Dutchman wrote:Any proof, that in non-Muslim culture in the 7th century Arabian Peninsula it was considered ok for a 50+ man to have se.x with a 9 year old? Or was this something that was introduced by Muhammed.

Well, the marriageable age for Jewish girls/women at the time was between 14-18. But why let facts get in the way of a deranged mind?

Marriageable age was puberty in Arabia - and that applied to Jews, pagans and Muslims. The evidence regarding puberty and intellectual maturity is in the video - and referenced.

Remember that centuries later, political marriages in Europe were similarly between girls below 10, but again the marriage was consummated only after puberty.

Having s.ex with one's lawfully wife was ok then - the only criterion was that she was mature at time of consummation.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Marriageable age was puberty in Arabia - and that applied to Jews, pagans and Muslims. The evidence regarding puberty and intellectual maturity is in the video - and referenced.

Must have missed it. Can you mark where it speaks of sexual/marriage age in 7th century non-Muslim Arabia?