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Please re-read the last sentence of my last post. Then read the sentence before that.

Can you now see why you've failed?

Now - the fact is that Richard II etc married young girls for political reasons. This was in Europe centuries after the Prophet, pbuh, had passed away. The Prophet, pbuh, entered into a number of political marriages - including divorcees and widows.

Facts caps, facts - the achilles heel of loons, again.

Cheers,
Shafique

This thread is NOT about your last sentence (spin) but about muslims who force underage girls into marriage.
Fact is that muhammad shows the example because he married a 6 years old child and had s.ex with when she was 9
http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge/pedophile.htm

Having sexual feelings for small children is called pedophilia

So, you'd argue that Richard II was a paedophile for entering into an arranged marriage with a 7 year old for political reasons. Hmm.

However, my point still stands:
Islam does not condone forced marriages, under-age s.ex. Despite what loons argue.

Cheers,
Shafique

This thread and its links demonstrate that forced marriages are caused by muslims in an immense majority.
This thread is not about Richard II who was no pope or messenger of God.
muhammad was the messenger of allah, and he married a child and had s.ex with her. which makes him a pedophile.
If Richard II did, he would be too, I dont know if he did or not, he might have been be just political. but who cares, nobody is worshiping Richard II . In the case of muhammad it was not political, because he was a pedophile.
Read the attachment and learn
http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge/pedophile.htm

shafique wrote:the achilles heel of loons, again.

I'd say the very weak spot of Islam is Muhammed's dirty deeds. Thats why Muslims get so violent when people get close to Muhammed (try to draw him for example). Deep down they know something is very wrong, and in the end that is a good thing and hopefull

Another loon fantasy that is not based on reality.

The problem with the loon version of history is that Muslims don't actually believe the loon version, nor do they act upon it. Muslims instead consider the Prophet, pbuh, to embody all the virtues of a moral, just, loving, compassionate, loyal, brave, spiritual human being.

The fact remains that Islam does not condone under-age s.ex or forced marriages.

Centuries after the Prophet, pbuh, had passed on - European and Eastern Monarchs were entering into political marriages with child brides.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote: Muslims instead consider the Prophet, pbuh, to embody all the virtues of a moral, just, loving, compassionate, loyal, brave, spiritual human being.

Muhammed was a war monger womanizer to put it mildly. Responsible amongst others for genocide and ethnic cleansing.

shafique wrote:The fact remains that Islam does not condone under-age s.ex or forced marriages.

Islam doesn't condone pre-menstrual se.x, thats something very different!

Yes, we know what the loon version of history is and how they demonise Muhammad, pbuh.

As stated above, Muslims don't believe the loon spin and in all the accusations you've levelled against the historical events, the loon spin was exposed.

In this case, child marriages for political reasons was being carried out in Europe centuries after the Prophet, pbuh, had passed away. This is fact.

So, the smear of paedophilia is a cynical one that is not based on fact. Especially when the other wives and when they were married are taken into account.

Islam does not condone s.ex outside of marriage - as everyone knows. And it does not condone forced marriages.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:In this case, child marriages for political reasons was being carried out in Europe centuries after the Prophet, pbuh, had passed away. This is fact.

How weak Islam is, needing to find reassurance constantly from European princes and kings.

shafique wrote:So, the smear of paedophilia is a cynical one that is not based on fact. Especially when the other wives and when they were married are taken into account.

What a strange and weak argument. Many modern day pedophiles are legally married.

shafique wrote:Islam does not condone s.ex outside of marriage

It does condone se.x as soon as mentruation happened, and many consider that statutary rape!

Well, you thinking Islam is weak for me pointing out that European monarchs also practised child marriages for political means sounds mightily like 'sour grapes' to me.

But back to this thread's topic - glad to see that there's no argument that Islam does not condone forced marriages or s.ex or indeed s.ex outside marriage.

Cheers,
Shafique

You are confusing 2 issues Shaf.
Political marriage with a child is NOT pedophelia.
Having $ex with a child IS pedophelia. Muhammed had $ex with a 9 old child, it is vile, it is pervert, and it is pedophelia. Whether you accept it or not does not matter, it is well documented that Muhammed consumated his marriage with a child. Your denial constitutes acceptance of this practice.

-- Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:47 pm --

shafique wrote: glad to see that there's no argument that Islam does not condone forced marriages or s.ex or indeed s.ex outside marriage.
Cheers,
Shafique

I am glad that you admit that there's NO argument that Islam does NOT condone forced marriages or $ex outside marriage. Which means Islam DOES condone marriage and $ex outside marriage.
You just said it yourself.

In this video a muslim cleric makes it absolutely clear that islam condones marriage and s.ex with underage girls, watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OxszPhDNOw&feature=fvst

Gertrude - I'm glad that you've got half the argument. Well done.

So, we agree that there's a difference between a political marriage between a ruler and a child bride and paedophilia. The question then becomes whether the one marriage of the Prophet to Aisha was political or not.

To Muslims and historians, the answer is clearly that it was a political marriage and not a sign of paedophillia. The marriage was consummated only after Aisha had come of age.

What was the age of the bride of Richard II (or the other examples) when the marriage was consumated?

But loon ideas of historical events aside, today the issue of forced marriage being not allowed in Islam is crystal clear.

As for your funny attempt at a double negative - you're quite right, I should have been more precise:
It is clear to all that Islam DOES NOT condone s.ex outside marriage or forced marriages - and no arguments have been presented to contradict this fact.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote: glad to see that there's no argument that Islam does not condone forced marriages or s.ex or indeed s.ex outside marriage.
Cheers,
Shafique

You said it all Shaf. read yourself.
Fact: muhammad had $ex with his wife when she was 9 old, you saying she was of age shows that you condone pedophelia.
Did you watch the video posted by caps, islam does condone marriage and sex by underage girls, it comes from a cleric, no loon here.

I trust that you also read my clarification (which was more precisely worded):

shafique wrote:It is clear to all that Islam DOES NOT condone s.ex outside marriage or forced marriages - and no arguments have been presented to contradict this fact.

Islam does not condone s.ex outside marriage and forced marriages - that's the point of this thread.

The age of maturity and legal age of marriage is a separate issue - and different countries have different minimum ages. The age of consent is as low as 13 in Spain, for example - and back in the 7th century puberty was taken as the age of maturity.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote: glad to see that there's no argument that Islam does not condone forced marriages or s.ex or indeed s.ex outside marriage.
Cheers,
Shafique

You made it perfectly clear shaf, your clarification only shows that you are confused with your own lies and deceits.

shafique wrote:No.

Simple answer to a simple question.
Cheers,
Shafique

When asked if muhammad married a 6 years old you said NO, now you say YES. You lost it Shaf

A marriage with a 6 old girl can only be forced, Shaf, since such a young child cannot refuse or decide for herself, obviously someone else decides for her, and that is called "FORCED"

What age was she then?

gertrude - why do you react so violently when facts are stated?

shafique wrote:It is clear to all that Islam DOES NOT condone s.ex outside marriage or forced marriages - and no arguments have been presented to contradict this fact.

The separate matter of the marriage of the Prophet to Aisha is a red herring. One it was a political wedding, and second the marriage was consummated after puberty, years later, as per accepted norms of the time - as was practiced in Europe etc for centuries afterwards.
http://muslim-responses.com/Marriage_wi ... ith_Aisha_

getrude - leave the hype behind and focus.

Forced marriages are not condoned in Islam. If you want to discuss historical mistakes loon insist on making, let's do that in another thread.

Islam does not condone Forced Marriages. period.

Cheers,
Shafique

Then we'll have to assume it's a case of 'Do as I Say, and Not as I Do'.

Loons always have to assume it's 'they do as I imagine'

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum wrote:Then we'll have to assume it's a case of 'Do as I Say, and Not as I Do'.

Muhammed made exceptions for himself, its water tight! He was an examplar, so he needed a bit more room to example, without these examples being held against him.

Anyways, no matter what, Muhammed was 50+ of age when having se.x with a 9 year old.

Fact still remains:

It is clear to all that Islam DOES NOT condone s.ex outside marriage or forced marriages - and no arguments have been presented to contradict this fact.

This thread isn't about how loons deliberately spin events from over 1000 years ago.

Cheers,
Shafique

^^^When in doubt call them a loon. That'll sort them out!

Isn't that line wearing a little thin now Shafique?

I don't think it is dispute that Mohammed married Aisha when she was six and had marital s.ex with her when she was nine.
The fact remains that six year old children can't be relied on to make the decision about what time to go to bed, never mind when to get married. So it can only be assumed that she was forced into that union.

Forced marriages still go on in the UK today amongst Pakistani immigrants.

There is a case ongoing where the parents have been charged with their daughters murder after she refused to enter into a forced marriage.

As with a lot of your claims about islam, what is the word, isn't always practised is it? We see it on this forum, for instance, regularly. Or we did when Symcopath was around.

The world would indeed be a better place if all Muslims were as good as you say they are.

The fact that I stated is that Islam, the religion, does not allow forced marriages.

I stated in my first post that there is an issue in some Pakistani families in the UK. Herve couldn't read an article properly and thought that 70% of muslim marriages in the UK are forced (they aren't).

Indeed, I agree that the world would be a better place if all Muslims abided by the teachings of Islam - but the same goes for all Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews etc.

Cheers,
Shafique

How do you know that 70% of marriages within Pakistani families aren't forced?

The girls seem to be put under extreme pressure to marry a husband that is chosen for them, and while they aren't frogmarched up the aisle (to coin a phrase) they are certainly made aware that to disagree with their parents choice is a definite no no.

Nobody should be put under any pressure to marry anybody that they don't chose themselves.

All this business of Aunty phoning from Pakistan to say she's discovered a cousin who would make a wonderful husband for Yasmeen is a complete load of BS.

Indeed, I agree that the world would be a better place if all Muslims abided by the teachings of Islam - but the same goes for all Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews etc.

Well we agree on one thing anyway. The difference being that most Christians aren't force fed and don't force feed others on the teachings of the Bible and then fall at the first post.

This is what I mean, there is no religion that explicitly states that young girls and boys should be forced into marriage. However, there is the actual cultural practices that were happening in those times and continuing today that are creating a problem.

This is why I have big issues with religion. It is completely a case of "Do as I say, but not as those who bring my divine message to you do." If there is a God, and he/she wanted to make 100% sure that children were not being forced into marriage (especially consummated), then he/she should have ensured that none of his/her prophets or key people did it, so they would set a proper example to the followers.

Exactly because Muhammed married a girl so young, who obviously could not or would not choose to consent at that maturity level, it serves as an example to those who believe that their children should be forced into a marriage that the family arranges. They can say that if Allah willed it for Muhammed, he also would will it for their children.

The world would be a better place if everyone followed the golden rule of "Treat others as you would expect them to treat you.", but the religious texts are full of examples of terrible things happening to men, women and children that break this rule. So is religion useful in the end? Debatable.

Muslims DO defend the practice of paedophilia:
"Because this happened to the Prophet, we cannot tell people that it is prohibited to marry at an early age."
Sheikh Hamoud Hashim al-Tharihi, general secretary of the Vice and Virtue Committee and member of the Islah Party in Yemen

Another example:
An Imam at a town centre mosque in the UK , Ebrahim Yusuf Kazi, 67, was found guilty this week of five counts of indecent assault on three girls aged under the age of 13.
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news ... ung_girls/

Muslim men are supposed to emulate the prophet in their lives, so they are encouraged to marry little girls.

muslims have a problem, If we they judge the actions of muhammad by modern standards, then he committed peadophelia and rape, and if they defend muhammad then they cannot claim that Islam does not encourage paedophilia.

shafique wrote: But back to this thread's topic - glad to see that there's no argument that Islam does not condone forced marriages or s.ex or indeed s.ex outside marriage.

Cheers,
Shafique

This is what Shaf's wrote, then he changed his opinion when he saw he got caught in a lie.

Loons and their fantastic theories!

It is clear to all that Islam DOES NOT condone s.ex outside marriage or forced marriages - and no arguments have been presented to contradict this fact.

Everything else (including Imams/Priests feeling up children) doesn't change this fact.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique man, Do you have a different version for everyday of the week? Do you realize what an idiot you make of yourself

shafique wrote:But back to this thread's topic - glad to see that there's no argument that Islam does not condone forced marriages or s.ex or indeed s.ex outside marriage.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote::
It is clear to all that Islam DOES NOT condone s.ex outside marriage or forced marriages - and no arguments have been presented to contradict this fact.Cheers,
Shafique

Yes it does condone forced marriage, I posted this video before as an example and you ignored it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OxszPhDNOw&feature=fvst
you can't say he is a loon, he is a muslim man just like you.
So how's that to support that islam condones forced marriages with children

capsicum, almost every religion has people using that religion to justify their abuses of others. Should I mention the pedophilia running rampant in the Catholic church, including cover-ups at the highest level?

Even if the Pakistani community in the UK has a large problem with forced marriage and possibly forced underage marriage, that doesn't negate the fact that there are many Muslims who don't condone this practice and they are working with the UK legal system to protect children, men and women from this practice. It is very possible that in the future there will be no more forced underage marriages in the UK, Australia, US, Canada or wherever because there are laws and support systems available to protect children. The practice can be dramatically reduced, at least in first world countries. I doubt it will ever die out.

I have posted links that show examples from around the world and across various religions where forced underage marriage has occurred for various reasons primarily related to the family's honour, aligning families for business or political reasons, pawning off the care of a child to a spouse, especially an ill child. Religion is sometimes used as a justification when trying to coerce the children in marriage, but it is only secondary. The main reasons are usually one of those listed above.

It is very disturbing that the prophet Muhammed married and had se.x with a young girl. It sets a terrible example for Muslims while Allah apparently does not approve of such marriages. I'll leave that for Muslims to reconcile. People of other religions have their own things to reconcile in their inconsistent religious texts as well.