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I am not a Muslim nor am I a Jew but I am a human being and surely any person with a sense of decency and compassion has to see that what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people is just simply inhumane.
The recent UN bid has clearly brought to light that the US will do whatever is in Israel's interest even if it means continuing to humiliate and subject Palestinian people to an unbearable life.

I have no hatred in my heart for any race but just sadness that in the 21st century the international community can continue to tolerate and not clearly denounce the treatment of the Palestinian people. The images of how they are treated and forced to live are shocking. Children more than anyone suffer on a daily basis and the physiological trauma that is being inflicted on them on a daily basis is inexcusable (please see link of a particularly moving video).

The Jewish people should know better than any other race surely? They were subjected to ethnic cleansing by the Nazi's. Are Israel's actions of squeezing the Palestinians into smaller and smaller area's and building new settlements, denying them equal rights, liberties and access any different? Personally I don't think so.

I hope that soon we see Palestine achieve its goal of a free state. They deserve it.

I watched the speeches of Abbas and Nettie. I think Abbas was brilliant and made a very good argument/case. As for Nettie, as usual he portrayed Israel/Israelis as the victim. He even accused the UN of unfairness towards Israel. He went on about other countries and terrorism and clearly was portraying Palestine as a terrorist country - I guess any country that doesn't want to make peace with Israel - on Israel's terms - must be a terrorist country. Clearly it's everyone else (other countries) that are the problem, not Israel. Israel would be the first to make peace with all the countries that they have trouble with??? Israel wants to keep Palestine on it's knees. Statehood would give Palestine the same rights and privileges that Israel enjoys - including building up a legitimate defense. Israel talks about enemies - Israel is it's worst enemy.

I think it sucks that the US is holding Palestine hostage to make peace with Israel. Why should Palestine sell itself short and bend to the demands of Israel? Israel isn't proposing peace based on mutual agreement, it is demanding peace on it's terms.

What is the point of the UN when one country - the US, which is clearly controlled by Israel - can make a decision that goes against the wants or beliefs of other member countries of the UN? The majority member countries want to see Palestine granted statehood, which is being withheld by the US. Israel is loosing "allies" and soon the US will find itself looking in from the outside where the Middle East is concerned and they will only have Israel to blame for leading them down that path.

Well put Bora. I wish all Americans would see it that way. In fact I remember seeing a poll that more Americans support an independent Palestine than currently support Obama so maybe there is support for it in the US after all. For a president that came to power and gave so much hope to the Palestinians by denouncing settlements and supporting a two state solution what a weak, two faced liar he looks now. Such a shame.

Obama has succeeded at one thing: failure in every regard - abroad and at home. But, having said that, Obama's failure is part of the politics that is played out in the arena. It's more about a party winning than doing the right thing for the country (US). Politics in the US has become personal rather than serving and protecting Americans and the country. I think it's going to become worse before it gets better - but at what price???

I watched both the speeches aswell, it was encouraging to see the standing ovation Abbas got and as predicted Yahoo just threw about tired old rethoric and as Bora said trying to play the victim once again.

And carefull there John, that kind of talk will get you branded an anti semite and a holocaust denier in a flash in these parts by the fanboi crowd because just like Israel, they have nothing but rethoric and lables left on their side.

Here is a great clip of MP Gerald Kaufman (who is also a jew) speaking in the house of commons and making two pretty valid points against Israel -

1. Israel has cynically used the guilt of the holocaust to brand anyone that questions their policies as anti-semitic
2. His comparison of Nazi behaviour and that of the IDF.

A little bit more difficult branding him as anti-semitic.

Hear hear !

Thank you John for posting that.

Thanks John - very balanced and logical posts. It is uplifting to listen to Kaufman's speech again.

I agree with your, Bora's and DDS points completely.

I'd just add that I was disappointed, but not surprised, that Bibi peppered his speech with 'Islamic terror' etc and used the same-old hype that is wearing thin.

Abbas, for me, hit the nail on the head when he identified the core issue:

The core issue here is that the Israeli government refuses to commit to terms of reference for the negotiations that are based on international law and United Nations resolutions, and that it frantically continues to intensify building of settlements on the territory of the State of Palestine.

Settlement activities embody the core of the policy of colonial military occupation of the land of the Palestinian people and all of the brutality of aggression and racial discrimination against our people that this policy entails. This policy, which constitutes a breach of international humanitarian law and United Nations resolutions, is the primary cause for the failure of the peace process, the collapse of dozens of opportunities, and the burial of the great hopes that arose from the signing of the Declaration of Principles in 1993 between the Palestine Liberation Organization and Israel to achieve a just peace that would begin a new era for our region.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... y-1.386385

Cheers,
Shafique

Thank you for that clip John. There must be tens of thousands of Jews that share his sentiments with regard to Israel's actions against Palestine, but since Jews control the press for the most part, we don't get to hear their voices.

DearJohn wrote:I hope that soon we see Palestine achieve its goal of a free state. They deserve it.

I agree, statehood you have to deserve. And Pali's donot deserve it IMO. They have no respect for democratic values whatsoever (both Hamas and PA are dictatorships), they are divided to the core, corrupt (their financials are a bottomless pit), and their justice system is a joke. No serious statebuilding has taken place! Pali's think they can get a state as a gift, until now they donot deserve it. In the mean time a (con)federation with Jordan would be better.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

DearJohn wrote:I hope that soon we see Palestine achieve its goal of a free state. They deserve it.

I agree, statehood you have to deserve. And Pali's donot deserve it IMO. They have no respect for democratic values whatsoever (both Hamas and PA are dictatorships), they are divided to the core, corrupt (their financials are a bottomless pit), and their justice system is a joke. No serious statebuilding has taken place! Pali's think they can get a state as a gift, until now they donot deserve it. In the mean time a (con)federation with Jordan would be better.

Hear hear FD!

-- Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:58 pm --

desertdudeshj wrote:And carefull there John, that kind of talk will get you branded an anti semite and a holocaust denier in a flash in these parts by the fanboi crowd because just like Israel, they have nothing but rethoric and lables left on their side.

You can only be labelled as a halocaust denier when you deny the halocaust, munchkin! Which is what you have done on this forum. And post 9/11 conspiracy theories too. You're always good for a laugh though.

-- Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:02 pm --

@dearjohn
I see you are a youtube fan! You will be amongst friends here who resort to it when they are stuck for words.
I think we've seen both of those clicks before, but thanks for sharing.

BTW is it wise to say that Obama is a two faced liar? My little munchkin reckons he's a Muslim

As predicted one tries spin and the other fluff ( but kudos for sticking to the only thing she is good at, as instructed ), turining it into a combination of fluffy spin. No real points or arguments brought forward, result.

FAIL

desertdudeshj wrote:As predicted one tries spin and the other fluff ( but kudos for sticking to the only thing she is good at, as instructed ), turining it into a combination of fluffy spin. No real points or arguments brought forward, result.

FAIL

You brought anti-semitism and halocaust denial into it first munchkin!
The trouble with you is that you can't consider anybody else's point. You just think you are right all the time and try to knock anybody else back by calling them names. Are you sure you're Pakistani and not Palestinian?

Flying Dutchman wrote:

DearJohn wrote:I hope that soon we see Palestine achieve its goal of a free state. They deserve it.

I agree, statehood you have to deserve. And Pali's donot deserve it IMO. They have no respect for democratic values whatsoever (both Hamas and PA are dictatorships), they are divided to the core, corrupt (their financials are a bottomless pit), and their justice system is a joke. No serious statebuilding has taken place! Pali's think they can get a state as a gift, until now they donot deserve it. In the mean time a (con)federation with Jordan would be better.

Lame.
Was it democratic to tear up a complete nation from its own land and give it as a gift to some bunch of alien intruders to the complete region?? No one even asked the Palestineans whether they want to share their land, it was just enforced. Had the Europeans felt guilty for their crimes towards their own Jews, they should've donated half of Netherlands instead

Save your hostility and injustice, soon you'll beg for some sympathy

-- Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:53 pm --

TheDevil wrote:

dearjohn wrote:I see you are a youtube fan! You will be amongst friends here who resort to it when they are stuck for words.
I think we've seen both of those clicks before, but thanks for sharing.

You're having a hard time, aren't you?
It brings you endless nightmares knowing that humanity refuses to accept any further Israeli injustice.

The Devil wrote? LOL! Thank you sweetie but I think you big me up too much

Having a good mood today, enjoying some humour

Sym is correct in saying that Israel was created out of nothing but European guilt and Jewish terrorism. A lot of Israeli leaders and groups at one were branded by the British Crown as terrorist and going back to Yahoo's speech the fallacy that the Torah to this day is a valid and legal land deed.

A lot of Jewish immigrants were illegal and even tried to be sent back, but the US didn't want them and neither did the Europeans who had stolen their property and bussinesses unwilling to return any of it after the collapse of the Third Reich.

But thats the past and it is what it is now, Israel does exist and their is no denying it, but the more important point now is that Palestine also exists and will Israel ever accept that and will it and its butt buddy the US ever allow that.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

DearJohn wrote:I hope that soon we see Palestine achieve its goal of a free state. They deserve it.

I agree, statehood you have to deserve. And Pali's donot deserve it IMO. They have no respect for democratic values whatsoever (both Hamas and PA are dictatorships), they are divided to the core, corrupt (their financials are a bottomless pit), and their justice system is a joke. No serious statebuilding has taken place! Pali's think they can get a state as a gift, until now they donot deserve it. In the mean time a (con)federation with Jordan would be better.

Its impossible to enter into serious "state bulding" when your state is militarily controlled by another. Whats the point of building something when the occupying power can knock it down whenever they choose. Having poor financials is a weak reason for not being allowed a state, maybe you are familiar with Greece and other indebted european nations.

World opinion and even your people are supportive of two states. The cruelty against the Palestinians at the hands of the Israeli's is something that the history books will come to reflect. Almost every humanitarian agency has condemned their behaviour time after time. Its just sad that as a people you were subjected to the same type of treatment at the hand of the nazi's, you of all people should know better.

DearJohn wrote:Its impossible to enter into serious "state bulding" when your state is militarily controlled by another.

So the argument is that Hamas' oppressive dictatorship, PA's dictatorship, inter-faction rivalry, overall corruption and that 80-90% of the Pali prison population is there without trial, is all the fault of the jews. Get a life! When Israel unilateral retreated from Gaza, the strip could be an example for Pali nationhood, a new Dubai with all the foreign aid dropped on it. Instead it choose to send rockets to Israeli cities, kindergardens etc. The PA had a chance in the Westbank. Its justice system is worth nothing and its financial institutions (despite so much foreign aid) are nothing. Again, no serious nation building has taken place. Contrary to jewish nation building. Before Israels independence the nation and its institutes were already strong, despite the hostile environment. They didn't wine, they did!
Before independence Palestine is already a failed state!

Gotta give it to the fanboi, just like his avatar, when everything is collapsing behind him he goes on live TV so say all is well. You must be real good at poker and proabably make a very good salesman, you could sell people their own sh1t if you wanted to.

Taking about finacials, what finacials ? The country is choked by Israel by the illegal blockade to the point of almost starving to death but ofcourse you will come back with a pic of some obscure building, oh look its all fine and dandy there, they got huge shopping malls, everybody lives in a villa with a swimming pool and three cars in the garage. The gall to even talk about the justice system, while overlooking the war crimes of Israel. Foregin aid, last time I checked Israel had a bigger dole check in their pockets.

And if finacials and corruption is your primary criteria then most of the worlds nations should be dissolved today including the US and ofcourse no post is complete with the sprinkling of lame rethoric signature.

Nation building, yeah occupied Europe made great strides in nation building !

I don't know wheter you actually believe the BS you peddle or just reguritating the fanboi mantra.

Well, desperate arguments are all FD have left.

Israel is allowing illegal colonies to be built on land that is under Military Occupation and has for years sought to blame the victims for the on-going Military Occupation. The spin is no longer working.

DDS is right - just like his avatar, one can imagine him championing the line that 'Apartheid should be supported because the blacks can't be trusted to run things'!

The irony is that before 1948 Israeli terrorists carried out bombings etc to force the British to accede to their views for statehood, and that eventually the UN was persuaded. The protestations about the military opposition to the occupation ring hollow.

It is the height of arrogance for anyone in the 21st century to argue that a Military Occupation should continue because they don't think the occupied deserve a state. Shame on the fanbois for supporting the occupation.

Cheers,
Shafique

FD you are talking nonsense. Palestine is occupied and its lack of economy is directly related to this occupation Buildings are bombed and demolished, houses are raided, there are checkpoints and blockades everywhere, food and water supply is in short supply. Build the new Dubai here? Common get serious how can anyone attract capital to a location that is. under such restrictions? Will the tourists that come to stay at the Gaza Beach resort be searched for weapon? Maybe there boat will be boarded and they will be shot in the back. Alternatively shopping trips will only require passing 12 checkpoints. Wake up FD. The occupation doesn't allow Palestine to fulfill any of its goals and realise its economic potential. When they have their state it probably won't be an economic powerhouse or equal Israel achievements but that is hardly relevant.

Thats exactly what I said Shaf. Israel was born out of European guilt and Jewish terror.

I seriously can't believe how the Farting Dutchman can say drivel like that keeping a straight face, all of a sudden that article about the Israelis paying people to negate criticism of Israel on the net.

DearJohn wrote:Buildings are bombed and demolished, houses are raided

I suggest a drive around the Ramallah hills full with villa's. Its en eye-opener of PA corruption of nepotism. While they keep hundreds of thousands of their 'own' in camps as cynical political pawns.

DearJohn wrote:there are checkpoints and blockades everywhere

Really, apart from border controls, only very few are operational. They were there in the first place against the suicide bombers, and were/are effective. I am taking a wild guess that suicide bombers are also Israel fault.

DearJohn wrote: Build the new Dubai here? Common get serious how can anyone attract capital to a location that is. under such restrictions?

There was a huge interest to invest in Gaza after Israel retreated. They choose violence instead of economic development.

DearJohn wrote: The occupation doesn't allow Palestine to fulfill any of its goals and realise its economic potential. When they have their state it probably won't be an economic powerhouse or equal Israel achievements but that is hardly relevant.

Its very silly to blame widespread corruption and the almost non-existent justice system on the jews. Very silly.

FD, the financial aid that Palestine has received was/is for humanitarian purposes. The financial aid Israel received/receives is to build up is military. At the beginning financial aid was given for economic purposes to build Israel up as a country, and separate from that they received military aid to develop it's army. Why would countries send financial aid to Palestine for no other reason than for humanitarian purposes?

Israel fears Palestine's statehood because it would put Palestine on equal footing with Israel and would be entitled to build itself up - yes, with the help of aid from Arab countries - which would include the creation of a military force. Israel doesn't want to lose the dog that they have been kicking and keeping down, but, Inshallah, the time will come when that dog is going to escape the brutality of Israel, recover, and come back strong.

Bora Bora wrote:FD, the financial aid that Palestine has received was/is for humanitarian purposes. The financial aid Israel received/receives is to build up is military. At the beginning financial aid was given for economic purposes to build Israel up as a country, and separate from that they received military aid to develop it's army. Why would countries send financial aid to Palestine for no other reason than for humanitarian purposes?

Israel fears Palestine's statehood because it would put Palestine on equal footing with Israel and would be entitled to build itself up - yes, with the help of aid from Arab countries - which would include the creation of a military force. Israel doesn't want to lose the dog that they have been kicking and keeping down, but, Inshallah, the time will come when that dog is going to escape the brutality of Israel, recover, and come back strong.

In the mean time they cannot even decide on the correct timezone, or is that already solved?

Flying Dutchman wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:FD, the financial aid that Palestine has received was/is for humanitarian purposes. The financial aid Israel received/receives is to build up is military. At the beginning financial aid was given for economic purposes to build Israel up as a country, and separate from that they received military aid to develop it's army. Why would countries send financial aid to Palestine for no other reason than for humanitarian purposes?

Israel fears Palestine's statehood because it would put Palestine on equal footing with Israel and would be entitled to build itself up - yes, with the help of aid from Arab countries - which would include the creation of a military force. Israel doesn't want to lose the dog that they have been kicking and keeping down, but, Inshallah, the time will come when that dog is going to escape the brutality of Israel, recover, and come back strong.

In the mean time they cannot even decide on the correct timezone, or is that already solved?

And that impacts Israel how????

Some nice villa's exist in Palestine, how dare they.
Only a few operational checkpoints, well what are they complaining about.
The point you make about the timezone is mind blowing and extremely relevant (only in FD's brain).
Who is blaming Israel for the corruption that may exist and why does that preclude you from having your own state? None of your arguments are even valid (let alone make sense) in relation to why Palestine should have their own state. You should look at the definition of what can considered a separate state.

DearJohn wrote:Some nice villa's exist in Palestine, how dare they.

Well they (the PA cronies) force a large portion of their 'own' to live in camps for generations and refuse to give them citizenship, while the pay their villa's from international aid. Yes, how dare they!

DearJohn wrote:The point you make about the timezone is mind blowing and extremely relevant (only in FD's brain).

The point is how extremely divided they are. The concept of one Palestinian nation is a big joke!

DearJohn wrote:Who is blaming Israel for the corruption that may exist and why does that preclude you from having your own state?

Without the rule of law Palestine is already a failed state. IMO, you have to earn a state and not sit in a chair and wine and think you can get a state on a silver platter. You have to work on it. Right now it has all the marks of a maffia state.

LOL, can't say nothing but predictable

desertdudeshj wrote:but ofcourse you will come back with a pic of some obscure building, oh look its all fine and dandy there, they got huge shopping malls, everybody lives in a villa with a swimming pool and three cars in the garage.

Flying Dutchman wrote:I suggest a drive around the Ramallah hills full with villa's.

SO FD's great argument against the creation of Palestine is that they are corrupt..........riiiight !

Remind me again which country is totaly free from it and since your on it, do rogue states, war criminals, terrorist and land grabbers also deserve a state ?