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London 11 September 2011

Christians have Westboro Baptist Church, Muslims have nutter Anjem Choudary and his small band of nutters.


WBC protest on 9/11
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/r ... 134052168#

Westboro Baptist Church Thanks God for 9/11 and Protests Fashion Week
September 11, 2011 09:05 AM EDT

The Westboro Baptist Church is perhaps the most justifiably hated group of religious zealots in America. Naturally this group headed by Fred Phelps is going to insert their names into the headlines on the 10 year anniversary of the September 11th attacks, but they also have other plans.

http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.acti ... 4980240407

Sad nutters all!

Cheers,
Shafique

Some reason I don't think I have to worry about Westboro Baptist terrorists...

^Well, if you looked at the facts in the USA - you SHOULD be worried about Christian terrorist groups such as the Hutaree who were caught with more ammo and arms etc than ALL the Muslim 'terrorists' caught in the US since 2011.

I'll see your two jihadists above and raise you one Baruch Goldstein (religiously motivated terrorists all - both sets going abroad to kill innocents).

There were fewer than 100 of Anjem Choudary's lot at the 9/11 event in London (and The EDL were there too.. ):
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/11/at ... ntational/


At the end of the day, it is sad that 9/11 is being used as a political football. Muslims died in that terrorist attack, and more British citizens died there than on 7/7. A team of mostly Saudi terrorists committed a terrorist act - and as a result many, many people were affected. I mourn for all innocent civilians who lost their lives then and since.

Cheers,
Shafique

Christians have a ramshackled "church" somewhere in Kansas with a congregation of how many, 30 ? A church that until 12 minutes ago I have never heard of but then again we don't see or hear much about them in the UK.

Mr. Choudary on the other hand is well represented, funded, afforded political protection and defended, not part of some lunatic fringe - he is but one of many and preaches nothing but what his addled little mind finds in his religious teachings, the same teachings that are not subject to a change of language, grammar or interpretation as you have offered here on so many occasions, the core message does not change, what is written is written. What is the number of brothers that he can call upon ? 1 Billion, perhaps more !

He is in the vanguard of exactly the same crusade that your are on, that he choses to voice his extreme views so publically does not in anyway detract from the message that we clearly read on his placards.

Going back to the Kansas crowd - what exactly is their agenda - Matthew 19:5 "Fags can't marry" hmmm missed that one in Sunday school. Had a quick look around via google, no Westboro Terrorists Guide Book on the internet !

Can you imagine the hillarity and cries of derision that a placard saying that "Westboro Baptists will Dominate the World" would bring from Christians Jews Hindus & even Muslims.

The biggest single threat to the vision of a Global Community is religion, which one is not my place to say, but I note that there was not one Hindu hijacker 10 years ago.

Cheers

In what way is 'Choudhary.. well represented and funded'?

Fewer than 100 turned up with him yesterday, and let's recall that he's just a media whore with no Islamic credentials:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... on-bassett

Contrast that with WBC who do have a church.

In reality though, in terms of the extremist views he represents and his credibility, he IS the equivalent of the WBC - and he IS just as ridiculous. The loons and some sections of the media may think otherwise - but look at the evidence and numbers.

I think that this one picture speaks volumes - where are the cheering crowds of Muslims celebrating 9/11around the world like the WBC lot? The absence of these stories/pictures tells the real story. Think about it.

Cheers,
Shafique

The absence of the "stories" that you refer to say more about self censorship and editorial fear than actual events. I was in and around Malaysia and Indonesia on 9/11 2001 and need no reminding of cheering crowds thanks very much.

Choudary is well represented in how he gained permission to demonstrate today - research and report back, and as for funded (hahahahaha pick a sheikh, any sheikh, any muslim state)

So Shaf, as someone on the inside of the "struggle" how do these people get funded ... ?

WBC has a church, really !, have you seen the pictures, I'm $5,000 bid and doing them a favour at that number.


Rewinding the tape - might you have been better off responding with the now well chewed mantra ...

"Not in my name" ?

That says it all for someone who does not agree with the message that Choudary peddles.

Here, I'll go first "As God is my witness, the Westboro Baptist Church in no way represent or reflect my views and beliefs"

Cheers

The Muslim extremists in your photo are cut from the same cloth as the Muslim suicide bombers (hence my point in posting the photo), along with the 50% (?) of British Mosques said to regularly preach hate and intolerance.

Wait, is the Hutaree militia ideologically connected with the WestBoro Baptist people in some way? With Baruch Goldstein?

Or is someone desperately setting up smoke screens for some reason.

Which, I guess, the real question is, why would someone want to do that?

viking-warrior, why do you think shafique would try create smoke screens and false analogies?

Is shafique interested in moderation and reform or is he interested in having non-Muslims believe Islam is moderate and reformed?

viking-warrior wrote:Christians have a ramshackled "church" somewhere in Kansas with a congregation of how many, 30 ? A church that until 12 minutes ago I have never heard of but then again we don't see or hear much about them in the UK.

Just the same, more Americans have heard of the Westboro gang than of AC. So whats the point, our loonies are worse just because you've heard of them ?

viking-warrior wrote:The absence of the "stories" that you refer to say more about self censorship and editorial fear than actual events. I was in and around Malaysia and Indonesia on 9/11 2001 and need no reminding of cheering crowds thanks very much.

Well, how about comparing how many Muslims in the USA came out and supported 9/11 compared with the Westboro folk. I'm pretty sure that the USA media would not suppress any Muslims demonstrating the way Anjem and his few followers did.

If there is a widespread conspiracy of self-censorship of muslim celebrations - then I expect the loon bloggers to be bleating on about this soon. They make up stories about Mooslims all the time, so I'd expect to hear about this. However, as yet even Guru Bob isn't making this claim of self-censorship - so you'll excuse me if I continue to 'think horses' when I hear hooves - i.e. the lack of news stories of muslims celebrating reflects the reality.

viking-warrior wrote:Choudary is well represented in how he gained permission to demonstrate today - research and report back, and as for funded (hahahahaha pick a sheikh, any sheikh, any muslim state)

So no evidence at all then. Gaining permission to demonstrate only means he knows how to pick up a phone or walk into a police station - or indeed use Google. And for funded - I pick our resident Sheikh Abu Dafda (Father of the Frog), are you saying he funded AC??

viking-warrior wrote:So Shaf, as someone on the inside of the "struggle" how do these people get funded ... ?

Funded to do what? Turn up at funerals and memorials and make noise? Most are living off benefits - so are being funded by the UK taxpayer (like Omar Bakri was).

viking-warrior wrote: WBC has a church, really !, have you seen the pictures, I'm $5,000 bid and doing them a favour at that number.

Yes, I've seen Louis Theroux's two documentaries about them - their church, their congregation, their Pastor!


And yes, I can categorically say that 'As God is my Witness, Anjem Choudary does not represent my views and is actually acting AGAINST Islam when he peddles his hate'. He has no Islamic credentials. Happy? Can't be clearer.

Now, how exactly is Anjem different from Westboro? As far as I can see the WBC are better funded and have more religious credentials than this clown. Both should be dismissed as unrepresentative nutters who came out on 9/11 to desecrate the memories of the victims.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Now, how exactly is Anjem different from Westboro? As far as I can see the WBC are better funded and have more religious credentials than this clown. Both should be dismissed as unrepresentative nutters who came out on 9/11 to desecrate the memories of the victims.

You are correct on the last point - they are both, on the whole unrepresentative of the common man, and should have stayed at home yesterday.

However, the difference between them is plain for everyone to see - everyone, that is, who looks at this with open eyes.

The WBC are the lunatic fringe, however, only in America would people go to such lengths to protest against such things as gay marriage, Iraq, etc etc. America is the "Land of the Free", and they can do what they like. I suspect they have absolutely ZERO support from outside their own very small circle, and are viewed with ridicule and derision by everyone.

Choudary, on the other hand, has a certain appeal to a wider audience. It is a fact, that certain mosques in the UK have been found to be preachuing hatred against non-muslims, and inciting acts of terror against innocent people in support of their "cause". Brixton mosque, for one.

Some young muslims are being radicalised in the UK, either in the UK itself or back in Pakistan, where they can travel to unhindered (although liklely watched / noted by MI5). Choudary is actively INCITING muslims to carry out attacks, and take up violent protests - all in the name of Islam. Whilst this is not the direction the vast majority of muslims will take, there will undoubtedly be those who choose to follow him. This does not favours for the muslim community in the UK, and the opposition shown by the EDL in coming out to demonstrate in direct opposition to Choudary is the direct result of his propoganda and incitement of the muslim community in the UK.

His planned demonstration in Wooton Bassett (which luckily never got off the ground, thanks to it being banned), would have probably seen him being taken care of on a permanent basis, as such an afront to our dead soldiers would not have been tolerated by the UK public as a whole, never mind the EDL.

The WBC have never, to my knowledge, carried out any terrorist attacks. Radicalised muslims, however, have carried out many, supposedly in the name of a peaceful religion. These are the people who will take inspiration from the likes of Choudary, and honestly believe the drivel he comes out with, and see it as a way to further the "cause".

Therein lies the difference between the two.

Blueorb - I haven't come across any evidence that Anjum and his nutters are any more harmful than the WBC. To my knowledge he is canny enough to actually not incite violence (which is a crime in the UK) and given he's a solicitor, he manages to stay the right side of the law.

He does indeed spout hatred though, and as noted above he's not an Islamic authority and he's to Islam what the WBC is to Christianity.

However, just as there are indeed 'Jihadists' who are radicalised extremists and not directly linked to Anjums rantings, there are similarly extremists in the USA who indeed have carried out bomb attacks, or have been caught with arsenals bigger than all other Muslim terrorists caught since 2011 who are not explicitly linked to the WBC etc. The Hutaree Christian Militia springs to mind. In Europe we have extremist Islamophobes such as Brievik carrying out terrorist attacks (and he calls himself a Christian Crusader).

Anjum and his mates are no different. Actually, I'd argue that looking at the stats of successful terrorist attacks in the US and UK - he's LESS harmful than other non-Muslim nutters. Europol and FBI stats show that the Muslim terrorists tend to be numpties who are entrapped, or really really incompetent (which I thank God for). The 7/7, Madrid bombing etc only count as a minority of actual terror attacks and are exceptional in that they succeeded.

The shoe bomber, underpants bombers and countless entrapped numpties are representative of those being radicalised. They share all the traits as other nutters - such as those who go on shooting sprees in the US.

So, when we examine the evidence, AC and his chums are as harmless as the WBC and just as distasteful. They get coverage way beyond their numbers - and unfortunately feed the loon/Islamophobe image of Islam and Muslims.

They should be dismissed as being unrepresentative of Islam as the WBC are of Christianity. That's what the evidence shows, at least.

Cheers,
Shafique

I find this extremely offensive. the WBC are protesting in their own country and are condemned by their own country. These are foreigners standing yards from relatives of the victims of 9/11 mourning the loss of their loved ones in OUR country, if they feel that way they should go back to Pakistan (or whereever the hell they come from) and protest there. What is ing is that this is a Christian country not an Islamic state and they should never have been allowed to settle here let alone stand yards from people who are remembering their loved ones and spew hatred. Either condemn them or shut up.

Shafique,

They are harmless in the sense that do not actually perpetrate acts of terror themselves, as a group, however the incitement that they carry out could have a devastating effect if it is acted upon by some radicalised individual who thinks he is acting in the name of Islam. That's the danger with him.

And i fully agree with Patience - he should stay the hell away from a memorial service like that which took place yesterday. At least have some respect - although that seems lacking in him and his cronies.

I agree that they don't represent Islam, but unfortunately they represent a side of Islam that does exist, and that's what captures the headlines and paints the picture.

I would think he is on someone's hitlist somewhere along the line. Government or otherwise.

Britain doesn't need people like him. And nor does Islam.

Gadaffi is a better representative of Islam than Choudary, and that's saying something.

Blueorb - I agree that we shouldn't ignore the likes of Choudary, Bakri etc and indeed the Muslim community and the UK Government are working to counter their messages of hate. Choudary and his chums don't have a mosque and are banned from mosques around the country - and much is being done to counter their twisted views and misuse of religion.

The ones that are attracted to their message are exactly the same and as representative as radicals in other communities. Brievik, the Christian Islamophobe, is the extremist version of Islamophobes such as Bob Spencer and our own event horizon - they share the same political views and twisted hate of Islam. The Hutaree Militia (Christians) in the US were caught, but there are others out there who are as twisted as they are.

I'm not sure that Ghaddafi is much better than Choudary as a representative of Islam - but I see your point!

I still maintain that he's as harmful in practice as the late Lord Such of the Monster Raving Loony party - but that shouldn't stop the on going efforts to counter his views with the proper teachings of Islam.

Patience - I sympathise with your views completely. But remember, Choudary is a media whore and his tactics are well summarised in the other thread. He is a shock jock and gets undue media attention - but less so these days.

Cheers,
Shafique

patience wrote:I find this extremely offensive. the WBC are protesting in their own country and are condemned by their own country. These are foreigners standing yards from relatives of the victims of 9/11 mourning the loss of their loved ones in OUR country, if they feel that way they should go back to Pakistan (or whereever the hell they come from) and protest there. What is ing is that this is a Christian country not an Islamic state and they should never have been allowed to settle here let alone stand yards from people who are remembering their loved ones and spew hatred. Either condemn them or shut up.

Patience, I'm not too sure about who you are asking to condemn the protesters in London, but if it is Shafique, then I'm afraid you are wasting your time. Shafique will never condemn anything unless it's white and Christian.
During the recent riots in England he posted about that unfortunate Malaysian boy who was attacked and robbed. When I asked him to condemn the 16 year old black youth who kicked the 68 year old white man to death, it was met with silence. Which in itself spoke a thousand words.

BM - I am beginning to see your point - sympathy for MY views but no condemnation of your 'brothers' Shafique. I would have thought the condemnation of all loonies whether Christian or Muslim would be an easy one for anybody whose ultimate objective is peace.

patience, earlier on in the thread I made it clear - but as you missed it, let me be crystal clear. I unreservedly condemn any and all acts of terrorism or incitement to terrorism, where terrorism for me means ANY act of violence towards any civilian (whether they are Israelis, Europeans, Muslims etc). I also condemn acts of wanton killing by the military as well - but that's a different category.

Here's what I said in this thread:

shafique wrote:And yes, I can categorically say that 'As God is my Witness, Anjem Choudary does not represent my views and is actually acting AGAINST Islam when he peddles his hate'. He has no Islamic credentials. Happy? Can't be clearer.

And if you have any lingering doubts about my stance on violence, terrorism, anti-semitism etc - here's a thread dedicated to those questions:
philosophy-dubai/questions-for-shaf-for-the-record-t46569.html

But as for AC here - he's been made into a bigger bogey man than he actually is. Stating this fact does not mean I agree or condone his views in any way - any more than others pointing out the fringe status of the WBC lot of nutters. Both are fringe nutters - the only differences being that the Islamophobic posters here think AC IS representative of Islam - and the fact that non-Muslim extremists carry out more terrorist attacks in Europe and USA than the numpty Muslim terrorists.

Cheers,
Shafique

And sunshine says he isn't a bigot!

and the fact that non-Muslim extremists carry out more terrorist attacks in Europe and USA than the numpty Muslim terrorists.

He can't simply condemn anything without trying to score for for Islam.

As for his topic about setting the record straight LOL Well we can all post that we aren't racist can't we?

Why is it that stating a verifiable fact is viewed as bigotry by BM (who says she is proud to be a bigot and a racist)?

Terrorism in the EU according to Europol:
dubai-politics-talk/terrorism-the-facts-t41918.html
and the updated 2010 stats:
dubai-politics-talk/terrorism-2010-figures-are-t47030.html

Terrorism in the USA according to the FBI:
dubai-politics-talk/terrorism-the-the-facts-t41878.html

Perhaps the FBI and Europol are bigots for documenting how few actual terror plots are carried out by 'Islamists' (only one in 2010 in the EU).

Cheers,
Shafique

Thank you Shafique.

Ok, well I have a question then. Why don't the moderate subscribers, whether they be muslim, christian, whatever rise up to quash the fundamentalists? Given that there are more peaceful people about, their numbers would be far out weigh the nutters - so what gives? Why does the responsibility lie with governments, security agencies and Joe Bloggs on the street?

Its the media that give these idiots the attention they crave so much. If a group of 50 or so buggers made a ruckus on a street corner and went away it wouldn't be an issue. But its these rags that splash them across their pages toghter with sensational articles.....

Many do hold anti-rallies against such bums, like the recent counter demostration againt the EDL thugs, but sane and rational people have better things to do that everytime and rather just ignore them and go on aout their own bussiness.

Do you speak out everytime against the EDL ? After all according to some they represent the true face of Britain ? If you don't am I to assume your silence condones their views and actions ? No right, same thing here chocs.

Don't know much about them to be honest. Bear in mind I haven't been to the UK for the best part of a decade - couldn't tell you what's going on there right now.

Exactly, when people complain that "moderate" muslims don't "speak out" against some obscure rag tag clan in the African bush thats also one of the reaons.

And if all of us devoted time and energy "speaking out" against thing which is some way or the other relate to us, there wouldn't be time left to do anything else in this world.

desertdudeshj wrote:Exactly, when people complain that "moderate" muslims don't "speak out" against some obscure rag tag clan in the African bush thats also one of the reaons.

And if all of us devoted time and energy "speaking out" against thing which is some way or the other relate to us, there wouldn't be time left to do anything else in this world.

And when can we expect you to speak out against 9/11 conspiracy nutters? You are no different than those in the OP.

desertdudeshj wrote:Exactly, when people complain that "moderate" muslims don't "speak out" against some obscure rag tag clan in the African bush thats also one of the reaons.

And if all of us devoted time and energy "speaking out" against thing which is some way or the other relate to us, there wouldn't be time left to do anything else in this world.

DDS, did you not see I also wrote Christians and everyone else as well? I wasn't just talking about Muslims, but ANY religion or cult for want of a better word that has fanatical followers.

What was the % of British Muslims who thought the 9/11 attacks were justified again? Something like 25-33% IIRC.

I'll let the reader decide if Anjem's views are a fringe among Muslim or if he's preaching to the choir.

Alternatively, we see people in the US oppose the WBC but Muslims opposing Anjem can hardly be seen.

I guess they're too busy attacking police officers and stoning buses to notice any Anjem rally.

Edit: Or stabbing UK citizens:

Trouble later flared between the two groups and two men were stabbed outside a pub in an incident believed to be connected to the protests....

The force spokesman said the men, who are both believed to be opponents of the Islamic groups, were injured in the incident at at 6pm, over two hours after the main protests had ended.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/am ... 73630.html

Chocoholic wrote:Ok, well I have a question then. Why don't the moderate subscribers, whether they be muslim, christian, whatever rise up to quash the fundamentalists? Given that there are more peaceful people about, their numbers would be far out weigh the nutters - so what gives? Why does the responsibility lie with governments, security agencies and Joe Bloggs on the street?

Chocs - the reality on the ground is that the likes of Choudary are fringe characters who are indeed banned from mosques and whose message is being countered by Muslims and the Government alike.

He hasn't got his own mosque and only has a rag tag group of people who follow him. He is less organised and funded than the Westboro Baptists in the USA - they have a congregation, church etc.

ACs tactics are described in the thread on him, and why he shouldn't be taken seriously:
dubai-chat/andy-choudary-not-taken-seriously-t47385.html

What is notable is that the 10th anniversary of 9/11 was marked by protests from only some fringe groups - one of them Christian in the USA and a small one in the UK by Anjum's lot. I haven't seen reports of any more.

If there is more that the Muslim majority can do to speak up against Anjum and his lot, I'm not sure what that is. We can't lock him up as normal citizens, and he is careful to stay within the law. I would just hope that the message of what Islam is gets out to more people and drowns out his rants.

Cheers,
Shafique

He hasn't got his own mosque and only has a rag tag group of people who follow him. He is less organised and funded than the Westboro Baptists in the USA - they have a congregation, church etc.

Anjem doesn't need his own Mosque. There are plenty of Mosques in the UK that preach what Anjem believes every Friday sermon.

We can't lock him up as normal citizens, and he is careful to stay within the law.

Plenty of Muslims - including AC supporters - attend EDL counter demonstrations. Can't say the same about anti-AC protests.