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shafique wrote:
Please don't tell me eh is bringing up his straw man AGAIN. He failed to show I believe in superstitions in the past (he's pretty used to failing).

By contrast we have many examples of eh's own evasions on some Biblical events (Biblical beliefs he hasn't condemned and which his fellow American Christians believe in literally):

1. Talking donkeys (not to be confused with the loons aka 'talking a$$s' ):
philosophy-dubai/talking-donkeys-bible-evasion-t42810.html

2. Earth can stop revolving for a day (and the Bible and Science generally):
philosophy-dubai/talking-donkeys-bible-evasion-t42810.html

3. Eh's belief in Rapture (where he will magically disappear one day):
philosophy-dubai/rapture-day-t46391.html
philosophy-dubai/rapture-t39043.html


So, whilst I'm still waiting for any illogical beliefs within Islam (rather than some Muslims with superstitious beliefs/interpretations), perhaps eh can shed light on his own un-scientific beliefs.

shafique wrote:What was that from the young fanatic - was it a weak whataboutery argument:

"hey, I believe in talking donkeys - but that's ok, I believe in talking ants too??'

(When we last discussed this, I explained that I don't believe in talking ants... rather that this verse is actually about a tribe called Al Naml - 'the ants')

Cheers,
Shafique

Suleiman knew the language of birds. He had a great kingdom ruling birds, jinn, human beings and armies comprising of them.

Why would Sulaiman(pbu) smile in askance at the fear of such lowly creature ants? What valor would a mighty king Sulaiman earn by trampling such lowly creatures suggest on the contrary that these ants were symbolic to a meek tribe lived in the valley, proved from history. Based on this argument, Dr. Hoque, agreed with other scholars who suggested that the word Naml, does not mean the arthropod ants, rather they were a human tribe that lived in that region.

It is He who has sent down to you, the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

shafique wrote:Hey, if believing in logical explanations and interpretations of the metaphorical verses of the Quran makes me a weirdo in your eyes - so be it.

But let me ask you this question:
"What benefit and what practical aspect of Islam would change (i.e. what action I am currently doing will change) IF I were to believe in talking ants?"

My view is that these are peripheral stories and are there to explain Allah's powers and attributes. I take the meanings from these as parables to explain Allah's attributes - and I believe in all of them.

So, explain to me why believing in logic is 'the wrong path'. Where does it lead, and where does the alternative path lead?

Cheers,
Shafique

27:15 We gave (in the past) knowledge to David and Solomon: And they both said: "Praise be to Allah, Who has favoured us above many of his servants who believe!"
Walaqad atayna dawoodawasulaymana AAilman waqala alhamdulillahi allathee faddalana AAalakatheerin min AAibadihi almu/mineena

27:16 And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed Grace manifest (from Allah.)"
Wawaritha sulaymanu dawoodawaqala ya ayyuha alnnasuAAullimna mantiqa alttayri waooteenamin kulli shay-in inna hatha lahuwa alfadlualmubeenu

27:17 And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts,- of Jinns and men and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks.
Wahushira lisulaymanajunooduhu mina aljinni waal-insi waalttayrifahum yoozaAAoona


27:18 At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."
Hatta itha ataw AAalawadi alnnamli qalat namlatun ya ayyuhaalnnamlu odkhuloo masakinakum la yahtimannakumsulaymanu wajunooduhu wahum la yashAAuroona

27:19 So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me, by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants."
Fatabassama dahikan min qawlihawaqala rabbi awziAAnee an ashkura niAAmataka allateeanAAamta AAalayya waAAala walidayya waan aAAmala salihantardahu waadkhilnee birahmatika fee AAibadikaalssaliheena

27:20 And he took a muster of the Birds; and he said: "Why is it I see not the Hoopoe? Or is he among the absentees?
Watafaqqada alttayra faqalama liya la ara alhudhuda am kana minaalgha-ibeena

27:21 "I will certainly punish him with a severe penalty, or execute him, unless he bring me a clear reason (for absence)."
LaoAAaththibannahu AAathabanshadeedan aw laathbahannahu aw laya/tiyannee bisultaninmubeenin

27:22 But the Hoopoe tarried not far: he (came up and) said: "I have compassed (territory) which thou hast not compassed, and I have come to thee from Saba with tidings true.
Famakatha ghayra baAAeedin faqala ahattubima lam tuhit bihi waji/tuka min saba-inbinaba-in yaqeenin

27:23 "I found (there) a woman ruling over them and provided with every requisite; and she has a magnificent throne.
Innee wajadtu imraatan tamlikuhum waootiyatmin kulli shay-in walaha AAarshun AAatheemun

27:24 "I found her and her people worshipping the sun besides Allah: Satan has made their deeds seem pleasing in their eyes, and has kept them away from the Path,- so they receive no guidance,-
Wajadtuha waqawmaha yasjudoonalilshshamsi min dooni Allahi wazayyana lahumu alshshaytanuaAAmalahum fasaddahum AAani alssabeeli fahumla yahtadoona

27:25 "(Kept them away from the Path), that they should not worship Allah, Who brings to light what is hidden in the heavens and the earth, and knows what ye hide and what ye reveal.
Alla yasjudoo lillahi allatheeyukhriju alkhabaa fee alssamawati waal-ardiwayaAAlamu ma tukhfoona wama tuAAlinoona

27:26 "Allah!- there is no god but He!- Lord of the Throne Supreme!"
Allahu la ilaha illahuwa rabbu alAAarshi alAAatheemi

27:27 (Solomon) said: "Soon shall we see whether thou hast told the truth or lied!
Qala sananthuru asadaqtaam kunta mina alkathibeena

27:28 "Go thou, with this letter of mine, and deliver it to them: then draw back from them, and (wait to) see what answer they return"...
Ithhab bikitabee hathafaalqih ilayhim thumma tawalla AAanhum faonthurmatha yarjiAAoona

So, explain to me why believing in logic is 'the wrong path'. Where does it lead, and where does the alternative path lead?

shafique wrote:My view is that these are peripheral stories and are there to explain Allah's powers and attributes. I take the meanings from these as parables to explain Allah's attributes - and I believe in all of them.

So, explain to me why believing in logic is 'the wrong path'. Where does it lead, and where does the alternative path lead?

Such of your women as commit indecency, call four of you to witness against them; and if they witness, then detain them in their houses until death takes them or God appoints for them a way.

blueshift wrote:So Shafique is saying why should it matter if he believes in talking ants or not as there is no code of moral behaviour that derives from the literal truth of the existence of talking ants.

So nobody says, "I'm going to do some act because ants spoke, but if ants never spoke I'd do something different." But never the less, I think a person with a literal interpretation of scriptures would have a differnt moral code to a person with symbolic interpretation.

blueshift wrote:People who believe in the literal truth of scripture seem to do so because unquestioning faith is regarded as a virtue if not an obligation and doubt regarded as a sin. These people are also inclined have unquestioning faith in other authorities, after all, why would someone trust a book unless they had unquestioning faith in the person who told them to trust it. Someone with unquestioning faith is going to believe and act on what they are told to do by the authorities that they trust.

blueshift wrote:Surely you've seen Muslims writing things like 'we have to believe any consensus of Muslim scholars'. Some Muslims go as far as saying that anyone who doesn't accept an article of Fiqh is an apostate.