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Berrin, 2.62 says :

Inna, alladhina ammanu : surely/indeed, those who believe
wa alladhina hadu: and the Jews
wal nasara: and the Christians
wal sabina: and the Sabeans
man : whoever
amana: believes
bilahi: in Allah
wal yaum il akhri: and the last day
wa amila salihan: and does good/righteous deeds

shall have their reward with their Lord and no fear will be on them, nor will they grieve.

That is the literal translation of 2.62 - and says that 'those who believe in Allah, in the Last Day and who do righteous deeds' will go to heaven (have reward with Allah).

It does not say that Sabians, Christians or Jews who do these things won't go to heaven - and it compliments the verses which say that Allah will send to heaven those who have faith.

Also note that Allah starts with Muslims in the list - 'those who believe' then lists the other faiths.

The crucial aspect here is the tense of the words used by God - 'Amanu' is used earlier in the Quran in 2.25 and means 'those who believe':

And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow.

Cheers,
Shafique

No contradiction.

Obviously the contradiction here is where the verse you quoted contradicts with the verses in the Koran which say those who are not Muslims will not be accepted in the afterlife.

Your rebuttal literally consists of you repeating yourself that the verse is not a contradiction without addressing how two which contradict do not really contradict.

God does NOT say non-Muslims will NOT go to heaven, but explicitly says in 2.62 that they will

Allah DOES say non-Muslims will not go to heaven and explicitly says so in the multiple verses I've quoted above.

Your arguments are laughable in how puerile your thinking skills are.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?p ... ion=EN&CR=

Your own Koran commentary doesn't even support your belief. The commentary says Jews, Christians and others must *also* accept Muhammad as a prophet.

Your Ahmadiyya commentary says:

The verse, as mistakenly understood, does not signify that belief in God and in the Last Day alone is sufficient for salvation. The Koran emphatically declares that belief in the Holy Prophet is most essential (4:151, 152; 6:93) and forms an integral part of belief in God....

http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?p ... n=E1&CR=V2

Some who are not in the habit of making a deep study of the Koran have hastily jumped to the conclusion that, according to this verse, belief in Islam is not necessary. They say that anybody, whether he is a Muslim, a Jew a Christian or any other, who sincerely believes in God and the Last Day and does good deeds will be saved. Nothing can be farther from the truth. The Koran emphatically declares in a number of verses that belief in the Holy Prophet and in his revelation is essential. Says God: Surely those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and desire to make distinction between Allah and His Messengers and say, ' We believe in some and disbelieve in others, ' and desire to take a way in between, these indeed are veritable disbeliers ' and We have prepared for the disbelievers an humiliating punishment (4 : 15, 152). Again, And those who believe in the Hereafter believe therein (i.e. the Koran) and they strictly observe their Prayers (6 :93). From thse two verses it becomes clear beyond any shadow of doubt that according to the Koran (1) belief in the Prophets is part and parcel of belief in God, and (2) belief in the Hereafter excludes belief in God's revelation as well. Elsewhere the Koran says, Surely the true religion with Allah is Islam (complete submission) and whoso seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him and in the life to come he shall be among the losers (3:20, 86). This verse along with the two quoted above definitely proves that the objection mentioned above is entirely baseless and is born of utter ignorance of the real Koranic teachings....

Even your fellow Ahmadis recognize you're taking snippets of passages while ignoring the vast amount of other verses which qualifies v2:62.

shafique wrote:if they have faith and do good works.

So why does the Koran say the works of disbelievers do not count?

I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

We'll look at the Koran where it says Muslims are guaranteed a place in Paradise regardless of their worldly actions soon enough.

I would like to join the discussion, but is there a brief to where are you guys now!! forgive me, it is too long to read...

shafique wrote:Berrin, 2.62 says :

Inna, alladhina ammanu : surely/indeed, those who believe
wa alladhina hadu: and the Jews
wal nasara: and the Christians
wal sabina: and the Sabeans
man : whoever
amana: believes
bilahi: in Allah
wal yaum il akhri: and the last day
wa amila salihan: and does good/righteous deeds

shall have their reward with their Lord and no fear will be on them, nor will they grieve.

That is the literal translation of 2.62 - and says that 'those who believe in Allah, in the Last Day and who do righteous deeds' will go to heaven (have reward with Allah).

It does not say that Sabians, Christians or Jews who do these things won't go to heaven - and it compliments the verses which say that Allah will send to heaven those who have faith.

Also note that Allah starts with Muslims in the list - 'those who believe' then lists the other faiths.

The crucial aspect here is the tense of the words used by God - 'Amanu' is used earlier in the Quran in 2.25 and means 'those who believe':

And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow.

Cheers,
Shafique

well obviously every tribe/nation was bounded up with the revelations that were valid of their times.
But if you generalize this as still something to be in effect after the arrival of islam then where are you gonna fit this verse.

Chapter 5:3
This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

Mahmoud04 wrote:I would like to join the discussion, but is there a brief to where are you guys now!! forgive me, it is too long to read...

The usual, although I have skimmed through a few posts but mostly eh just trying to act smart only to end up looking like a fool. Gotta give it to the boy, he's a glutton for punishment.

Mahmoud - This thread is about whether event horizon believes that works (good deeds) are required AS WELL as faith to achieve salvation/entry to heaven. The Bible explicitly says 'faith without deeds is dead' - see OP.

Some Christians say that you only need to believe in Jesus as saviour, son of God, and you are saved. At least one Biblical verse contradicts this belief and says you need to also do good/righteous deeds.

I therefore asked eh this question:

shafique wrote:Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

We are waiting for an answer.

As for Islam, Allah is quite clear - for salvation/heaven, we need both belief and good deeds:
2:25

And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow.

'those who believe' = aladhina amanu

The discussion has been extended to whether non-Muslims will also go to heaven according to Islam.

2:62 states that 'aladhina amanu' (i.e. same as 2.25) AND Jews and Christians and Sabians, who believe in the last day and do good works... will have their reward with Allah.

So, Allah is quite clear that He will not admit only Muslims to heaven - and is quite clear about the criteria. There is no contradiction with the other verses. If someone actively rejects Islam and the Prophet - then they can't be said to believe in the first criterion, but if they don't actively reject Islam and believe in Allah, the day of ressurection and do good works, then Allah says they have nothing to fear. The crucial thing is the active rejection of Islam.

To believe otherwise would mean believing that God would punish someone who did good works etc, and never had the message of Islam delivered to them. God gives good tidings to these people in 2.62.

Cheers,
Shafique

Isn't it interesting to see shafique adding a third qualification after the commentaries from his own website were posted that disproved shafique's earlier claims?

We *now* agree that faith and good works are not necessarily enough to gain entry to Islamic Paradise. The third stipulation shafique has suddenly acknowledged is a belief in the prophet Muhammad. Unbelievers who have received the message of Islam must also accept Muhammad as a prophet - 'his work has failed' if a non-Muslim does not believe in all the recognized prophets, including Muhammad. Ergo, works by themselves are not enough if non-Muslims have heard the message of Islam. One must also accept certain articles of faith particular to the Islamic religion.

The reader will note that what I had said from the very beginning is in complete agreement with the Ahmadi commentators of the Koranic verse shafique quoted to proof text.

The careful observer will see that the one who has spun snippets of the Koran's verses has been shafique all along. But now that he has embarrassed himself as one 'not in the habit of making a deep study of the Koran', shafique has managed to backpedal from his earlier comments.

Indeed, I totally agree with shafique's new position that good works are *NOT* enough for entering Paradise. In fact, I've been saying this all along since we went down this line of argument:

event horizon wrote:The Koran is quite clear - anyone who has heard the message of Islam and not converted (or became an apostate) will be barred entry to Paradise.

Which is in complete agreement with the Ahmadi (shafique's religion) view of entering Paradise:

The verse, as mistakenly understood, does not signify that belief in God and in the Last Day alone is sufficient for salvation. The Koran emphatically declares that belief in the Holy Prophet is most essential (4:151, 152; 6:93) and forms an integral part of belief in God....

From those two verses it becomes clear beyond any shadow of doubt that according to the Koran (1) belief in the Prophets is part and parcel of belief in God, and (2) belief in the Hereafter excludes belief in God's revelation as well. Elsewhere the Koran says, Surely the true religion with Allah is Islam (complete submission) and whoso seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him and in the life to come he shall be among the losers (3:20, 86). This verse along with the two quoted above definitely proves that the objection mentioned above is entirely baseless and is born of utter ignorance of the real Koranic teachings....

With the official Ahmadi view of the afterlife vis-a-vis unbelievers brought to light, any further objections by shafique will be referred to these two official Ahmadi commentaries of the Koran and shafique will need to take it up with real scholars of Islam.

Please don't overlook this central question eh:

shafique wrote:Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

We can deal with your other points more fully (your imagined backpedal and contradictions) after you answer this.

But for easy reference, here's what I said on pg 1

shafique wrote:It just goes to show that the Muslim view that faith and deeds are both needed is to be found in the Bible - you can't be saved by just believing in a creed (even one not actually taught by Jesus).

2:25 and 2:62 are clear on this point - and 2:62 clearly states that it is NOT just Muslims that will get to heaven.

So, do you agree with the Quran that BOTH faith and deeds are required?

Cheers,
Shafique

So, do you agree with the Quran that BOTH faith and deeds are required?

Nope, simply being Muslim is good enough.

It is only non-Muslims who are judged by their faith and works - but that is only in the case where they have not heard the message of Islam. At which point, they can only convert to enter Paradise.

Stop evading the question eh (and your answer is in direct contradiction to 2.25 of the Quran)

Have a look at the thread title, then re-read the question:

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

Are you ashamed to answer, or just confused?

Cheers,
Shafique

3:55

[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

3:64

Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]."

3:128

Not for you, [O Muhammad, but for Allah ], is the decision whether He should [cut them down] or forgive them or punish them, for indeed, they are wrongdoers.

3:129

And to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. He forgives whom He wills and punishes whom He wills. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

work is as important as believe, but at the end God will do what he want (not any of us), whom to forgive and whom not. I guess we have something in common here, we all want to go to paradise, right?

Mahmoud - one difference between Muslims and some Christians is exactly over the point of whether we can be guaranteed heaven. Islam says that apart from a selected few - we are all at the mercy of God's judgement on the day of judgement.

Some Christians believe that if you just believe in Jesus as saviour, you will be saved.

Other Christians say that you must believe in Jesus AND do good deeds (as the Bible says 'faith with works is dead').

The question we are waiting eh to answer is - which of these two beliefs does he believe in:

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

Waiting patiently.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote: but if they don't actively reject Islam and believe in Allah, the day of ressurection and do good works, then Allah says they have nothing to fear.

I can understand the situation of those people who still stays with the previous scriptures without being aware of the deliverance of Islam n its final complete message, in which condition God will probably treat them separately and give good tidings in the hereafter..

but how can you expect those people despite the awareness of islam and its knowledge to be forgiven while persisting to stay on the outdated incomplete path?..

Berrin - at the end of the day it is Allah's decision according to Islam.

2.62 states that those who believe in the one God, believe in the day of judgement and do good works will have no fear from God, nor will they grieve. God starts the verse with 'alladhina amanu' i.e. those who believe.

As I said those who don't actively reject Islam, logically, should be treated with mercy by Allah - and 2.62 says this.

Now, let's see if eh gets round to answering the question of this thread:

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

Cheers,
Shafique

If you believe in one and only creator and prophet Mohammed to be his final messenger then what's the point in standing by the previous scriptures?... Despite the message of islam, if you prefer to stay anything other than being a muslim then that simply would mean that you reject islam and its prophet and its book therefore rejecting one and only God alone..

Those who do not work against islam and stays tolerant and do good deeds in accordance with scriptural messages will get their rewards in this world while probably stay destitute of God's compassion in the next world..

and also if non-muslims actively not rejecting Islam were to be treated with mercy by Allah, then what would be the full purpose of islam arriving?

Regarding 2:62 you also be reading this..
http://www.islamicsearchcenter.com/arch ... hereafter/

.

Shafique, do you disagree with anything from my earlier statement?

The Koran is quite clear - anyone who has heard the message of Islam and not converted (or became an apostate) will be barred entry to Paradise.

Can we at least agree that those who have heard the message of Islam and not accepted articles of the Islamic faith and apostates from Islam are both bound for hell?

Eh- I promise to answer your question above AFTER you've answered the question relevant to this thread's topic:

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

(Note that the related question about whether the Pope is the Anti-Christ is also waiting for you to answer)

Cheers,
Shafique

Before I got involved here, I think he had higher chances of saying yes with your sympathy towards believing Jews and Christians..

But after me he must have lost all his hopes...))

aside from the debates and points of view or yes or no, is the following correct or wrong?

Jew =believes only in Moses and ancestor prophets
Christian= believes in Jesus (as God or 1 of three) and ancestor prophets & books
Muslims= believes in Muhammed and ancestor prophets & books

Mahmoud - not all Christians believe Jesus to be son of God and part of the Trinity. Historically, the Council of Nicea was called to decide on what the Church should adopt as official doctrine on the nature of Jesus because there were differing views amongst the 'Hellenistic' Christians (as opposed to the 'Jewish Christians' - who still followed the Jewish law and believed in being circumcised etc). This was 300 years after Jesus' time.

At Nicea, the main debate was between Arius who argued that God was one, and Trinitarian Bishops who believed in the Trinity.

There are 'unitarian' Christians (and there are Monophysite and Monothelite schools of thought/sects) within Christianity.

From my perspective, the earliest 'Jewish Christians' who followed Judaic law and were circumcised etc and believed in one true God are the closest to Jesus' actual teachings rather that what is termed 'Pauline Christianity'.

Now, let's see what Eh's answer to the questions above are.

Cheers,
Shafique

Historically, the Council of Nicea was called to decide on what the Church should adopt as official doctrine on the nature of Jesus because there were differing views amongst the 'Hellenistic' Christians

The Council of Nicea was convened to decide the date of Easter.

At Nicea, the main debate was between Arius who argued that God was one, and Trinitarian Bishops who believed in the Trinity.

Arius believed Jesus was God.

From my perspective, the earliest 'Jewish Christians' who followed Judaic law and were circumcised etc and believed in one true God are the closest to Jesus' actual teachings rather that what is termed 'Pauline Christianity'.

You do realize that Paul followed Jewish Law, right?

(no, of course you didn't, but you'll probably claim you did)

I'll gladly add other questions to the list, as well as your latest attempt to rewrite history.. but first, let's hear your answer to the central question of this thread eh:

shafique wrote:Eh- I promise to answer your question above AFTER you've answered the question relevant to this thread's topic:

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

(Note that the related question about whether the Pope is the Anti-Christ is also waiting for you to answer)

Cheers,
Shafique

according to your post EH, Jesus didn't declare any of the above!

I agree with you, shafique certainly embarrassed himself (what else is new) trying to again pontificate on Christian history and theology.

I can't blame him for his distorted and incorrect views given that his 'research' consists of consulting professor google and missionary dot com websites.

However, it would be interesting to ponder how Muslims would treat a non-Muslim who came to the forum and made incorrect statements (such as seriously claiming the Koran was authored by Moses) on Islam and pretended to be an expert.

The one unique aspect of shafique is that there is no limit to the number of times he can be wrong on a subject until (if ever) he concedes he should do less lecturing and more reading (from reliable, academic sources) and listening from the people correcting his mistakes.

Nice try eh. But the questions still remain.

We'll tackle your imaginative delusions after you answer:

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

(Note that the related question about whether the Pope is the Anti-Christ is also waiting for you to answer)
[/quote]

Cheers,
Shafique

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

I believe the Bible is pretty clear; there will be Jews who do not have faith in Jesus and will be saved.

Well, blow me down with a feather - we have an answer, but unfortunately it doesn't address the question asked. I didn't ask whether ONLY Christians go to heaven (but it is interesting to note your answer to this un-asked question).

The question was actually over your belief concerning faith AND works - and whether a Christian who only believes but does not do good works goes to heaven.

(What is it with your comprehension skills these days eh?)

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

We can discuss the Biblical verses saying some Jews being saved some other time - this thread is about your belief over faith and works, and whether works are required or not.

Cheers,
Shafique

That the Bible is superior to the Koran? Yes, I agree. But let's look at what the Bible and Koran respectively say about who goes to hell.

We should determine if there are at least any quantitative differences between the hell fire passages and unbelievers in the Bible and Koran.

You really are having trouble reading these days aren't you? This thread isn't about random questions that you think I want answered, but specifically about your Christian belief over whether works and faith are requirements for salvation.

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

Your other random points can be dealt with later - as can the supplementary question about the belief that the Pope is the anti-christ. We can even examine why you believe in the Biblical talking donkeys! But first tackle this thread's topic.

Cheers,
Shafique

The aid acid test is that those with faith will do good works.

Your quote from Ephesians that you imagine contradicts Romans says that.