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shafique wrote:^it is terrible patience. What is even more shocking is that there is a poster on this forum who is the most extreme religious fanatic here and he makes excuses for the killing of children, and the enslavement of virgins:

philosophy-dubai/most-extreme-religous-fanatic-here-t41961.html

Note that this extremist has yet to comment on the verse above. But he normally chooses to hide his beliefs.

Cheers,
Shafique

I oppose killing children who *may* one day dishonor his/her parents.

Do you?

Of course I oppose any actual killing of children who may oppose their parents - try and keep up eh. A parable about a vision shown to Moses is hardly the same as your excuses for the actual killing of babies and enslavement of virgins - that's why you're the most extreme religious fanatic here.

Why do you hide your beliefs - is it because you're embarrassed by them?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Of course I oppose any actual killing of children who may oppose their parents - try and keep up eh. Cheers,
Shafique

you oppose? right ....but you support a palestinian court when they award only 6 months in prison to the murderous parents. 6 months... a slap on the hand
you dont oppose, al shafique ...you deceit

Why do you think I support a judicial decision in Palestine? Do you think I automatically support any judge in any country?

What part of 'I oppose any actual killing of children' confused you? You really should try visiting planet earth sometimes - don't you get tired living in your fantasy world?

Did you look up 3.7 in the Quran?

Cheers,
Shafique

Yes I read 3.7
It sounds to me like some arabs told the author of the book that some of his sayings or actions contradicted verses he released earlier , so he brought 3;7 to get away with it.
Basically saying that his book is not clear and even includes ambiguous sayings on purpose. And he asked mouslims not to follow those who criti( his mistakes.

I can't beleive people kiss the ground for such absurdity.

You seem to have read the verse but haven't understood the clear meaning. You do understand that God says there are clear verses which are the basis of Islam and also metaphorical verses, don't you?

What is unclear about that?

Never mind herve, don't let facts get in the way of your imagination - will you? You should stick to writing works of fiction rather than trying to make out you can interpret Arabic verses.

Cheers,
Shafique

I understand the quran better than you do, for a simple reason: if you understood the quran you would not be mouslim.
And stop telling me about god said this and that, it s just a book, there is no god

LOL - as I said, why do you insist on living in this fantasy world you've constructed. Is it so you can improve your fiction writing abilities?

(I'm constantly amazed how loons make themselves out to be experts on Islam, and yet amuse us with their lack of knowledge at every turn. Makes for a good laugh though.)

I guess we could call you Sheikh Abu Dafda' (sad for short) - what do you think Herve?

Cheers,
Shafique

LOL ... indeed Shaf, from the standpoint of an observer of this discussion/debate/lecture is it just me laughing at the irony inherent in relying on the interpretation of a long dead individuals' writings on a mythical all powerful being, saying that someone else lives in a fantasy world ?

Why should Herve's interpretation of what he saw and lived amongst be any less valid than, say, medical rationale integrated as religious doctrine approx 1,400 years ago ?

Religion and bigotry go hand in hand, just wait .... when the Empire invades it will be us Jedi that all you Christians, Muslims, Jews will turn to and then we'll see who pays the ferryman !

Peace, the only religion worth a dam

Herve is indeed free to recount his works of fiction and put them up for sale - and indeed he's entitled to interpret an Arabic verse of the Quran too. However, trying to say the verse says something different from what it actually says is a bit rich, I think.

The fantasy world that herve has created relates to his views of others - in this case Muslims.

That said, I'm reminded of a definition of a 'Holy War' - viz: Fighting over whose invisible friend is stronger!

Cheers,
Shafique

Glad we agree on the definition of a Holy war ....

However, whilst I agree that Herve's experiences have impacted his objectivity re: Islam et al, and that a minumum requirement to even engage in such a topic would require lengthy structured study of the subject in order to formulate well founded debate - I do think that you are more than a little guilty of muddying the waters as well

Having had the opportunity to read his book and having the perspective of having worked within the same group of companies, I can and do testify to the legitimacy of his story with regards to his employer, the modus operandi engaged to corner employees, the fuzzy boundaries between local companies and the judiciary, the fact that influence can and is brought to bear on the judiciary by local companies to secure a favourable outcome and more over, the fact that he escaped rather than leaving the country via DXB airport is the truth.

You are asking us to discount his escape story as a work of fiction by positing that as a fact, a fact that you have determined should be ruled on by you. Sorry Shaf but you are incorrect in your assumption.

Furthermore by extention you brand any interpretation that he may have, as similar fantasy.

Your argument is moot, you cannot quote chapter and verse that says whats said is absolute expect where it isn't, and if it isn't, the interpretation of another meaning is subject to a divine understanding, and anyone that choses to question the ambiguity is looking for an answer that suits them (ergo bad).

You are doing exactly what the Christian Fundimentalists do when cornered, take out the "fatith" card, the magic membership subscription, the ultimate get out. You have it or you don't. (Wanna guess where I stand?)

With regards to Herve, you speak from a position of not knowing the truth, not having been there or subsequently met the man , seen the documentation or even the unpublished photos and emails.

So, with respect, it might it be better if you were rephrase your previous statement as ...

"Herve is indeed free to recount his story, which in my limited opinion are works of fiction, and put them up for sale ..."

Peace

Bora says herve has been economical with the truth - I trust her account (checked facts with people who were there, she says).

Ergo - fiction writer.

However, my points of discussion with herve are not about his book and which parts are fabrications, but rather about his fantasies about Islam and Muslims posted on this forum.

He is free to have opinions about Islam and indeed recount his experiences with Muslims/Arabs etc - but to seek to preach what Islam is or to present his interpretation of an Arabic verses as 'fact' will elicit a quizzical and cynical reaction every time.

Thanks for your suggested re-wording of my previous statement to herve about improving his fiction-writing skills. I'm satisfied that it expressed the meaning intended.

Cheers,
Shafique

Neither Bora nor her husband have direct knowledge about what did happen or did not happen, their (her) view is an opinion based on word of mouth "tittle tattle" something that Dubai is very good at. Please bear with me - I will get to the point - but in the meantime, please hold up one example where the truth is in doubt in Herve's story, one factlet that you can use to demonstrate that EVERYTHING that he says is a "work of fiction".

His fantasies about Islam and Muslims are his to have, but you do raise an interesting point there when you allow him to 'interpret' what is written.

To a large extent, that is actually what all this is about, is it not. You learn the Quran at the feet of someone who is a little more than an interpretor, someone who prepetuates the school of intepretation that he was raised in, verbatim. In fact, as religions go, Islam is one of the most open, as the notion of interpretation is so firmly seated, not having been subjected to such rigourous preselection procedures as Christianity, yet like mindless sheep so many give up the right of interpretation to follow someone else's view, or as some will look at it, someone else's political, commercial or personal agenda.

I can't think of a primary religion that is actually bad in concept or in its message, it all gets screwed up in political manipulation (interpretation) which at the end of the day benefits one group or another.

In short, Herve or anyone for that matter is permitted to interpret what is written, in the hope that through in his (or her?) interpretation he may himself find truth and God (Allah)

Just who are you to stamp his interpretation as right or wrong, let him speak and by his own mouth damn himself, or not, as the case may be.

In closing, I find it a little sad that someone as eloquent as yourself cannot bring yourself to concede that brandishing someone a liar, without personal knowledge of the facts undermines your own foundation for preaching about anything.

Two wrongs must make a right where you come from ...

Toodle pip

VW, you're missing a simple fact in this case.

The fantasies and fiction I'm challenging herve on are the ones he's written about in these forums. I've made reference to the fictional parts of his book too - but only in context of comments relating to his fantasies about Islam.

It is not as if herve has provided an exegesis of a particular verse of the Quran - hardly, what he's only done is issue hate filled rhetoric about 'cults' etc. Note that his contribution above was soley what the French translation said and a rather grand statement that he understands the Quran better than me. Perhaps he does, but there's little evidence of that from his posts.

I'm NOT saying he should desist from expressing his views. I am saying that he shouldn't be surprised if his fantasies are challenged and exposed.

Freedom of speech surely extends to me exposing and labelling fantasies when they are presented.

Toodle pip.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:
I've made reference to the fictional parts of his book too Cheers,
Shafique

would you mind sharing?
did you read his book?

Nope, haven't read his book - I trust Bora's review though. (See posts above)

I've read his other works of fiction though - eg related to terrorist threats, and what we've been discussing here: his view of Islam.

Also note that the discussion is about talking donkeys vs eh's quotation of one Quranic verse:

shafique wrote:Well, I wonder if your talking donkeys are the same ones eh believes in.

As for your scholarly interpretation of the one Arabic verse - I'll happily stick to the explanation already given. You seem to think you know better.

You may want to look up verse 3:7 and let us know what that means.

(It seems quite a distance from the original post about Whites copying Blacks in the recent UK riots! )

Cheers,
Shafique

Well we don't want to exclude Herve from any discussions as the only thing he ever talks about is his book and his hatred of Islam and Muslims.

Must be the most boring person in real life.

desertdudeshj wrote:Well we don't want to exclude Herve from any discussions as the only thing he ever talks about is his book and his hatred of Islam and Muslims.

Must be the most boring person in real life.

Munchkin! Please excuse my abrupt post but I have been on the razz on JBR tonight but I really couldn't let your post go without replying to it! Herve is not the most boring person in real life! In fact he is very exciting! If I were to to choose from a French Naval Officer and a donkey herder from Pakistan I know who I would choose and it wouldn't be you'

shafique wrote:Of course I oppose any actual killing of children who may oppose their parents - try and keep up eh. A parable about a vision shown to Moses is hardly the same as your excuses for the actual killing of babies and enslavement of virgins - that's why you're the most extreme religious fanatic here.

Why do you hide your beliefs - is it because you're embarrassed by them?

Cheers,
Shafique

Where does the clear Koran say the story is a parable?

desertdudeshj wrote:Well we don't want to exclude Herve from any discussions as the only thing he ever talks about is his book and his hatred of Islam and Muslims.

Must be the most boring person in real life.

He does have an active imagination though - but you're right, all this hatred towards 'Arabs' and vitriol about Islam is predictable and now boring.

But I was amused that Sheikh Abu Daffa' is now claiming to know more about the Quran than me, but has yet not shown any evidence of his scholarship of the Quran. This latest claim is quite amazing - but one that is proving to be as hollow as his other pronouncements.

(Young eh - the parable of Khidr in ch18 of the Quran is there for all to read. Google is your friend - but first just read the verses from v65 onwards. Perhaps your belief in talking donkeys is clouding your judgement as to what is a parable and what should be taken literally - see 3.7 in the Quran if still confused)

Cheers,
Shafique

Men with good imagination make the best lovers.

shafique wrote:He does have an active imagination though

I seriously doubt it. I can predict what Mr hatefull boring farts next post or thread is going to be about. Any guesses

And who let the windbag out on Eid ? Well atleast during ramadan the hot air was to a minimum, sigh, all good things must come to an end.

desertdudeshj wrote:

shafique wrote:He does have an active imagination though

I seriously doubt it. I can predict what Mr hatefull boring farts next post or thread is going to be about. Any guesses

And who let the windbag out on Eid ? Well atleast during ramadan the hot air was to a minimum, sigh, all good things must come to an end.

And this is how you chose to move forward a discussion?

Do the words pot and kettle resonate much with you?

sheeesh .............

VW a discussion is something you have with people who have some substance in their arguments, not people like eh and herve who have nothing to offer but loaded threads and trolling their agenda 24/7.

To take them seriously is to give legitimacy to their non sensical phobic agenda, I know stooping down to an idiot's level also sort of makes you an idiot but their is no reasoning with such people, because they are not here to discuss, seek knowledge or anything rational for that matter but just wave their flags. Its either ignore them and or have a little bit of fun and have a laugh.

If you see if anyone really wants to discuss, most posters will join that discussion. Doesn't matter if it is anti islamic, arab, muslim, pro israel etc etc. Just as long as it is a credible exhange of thoughts and opinions. Just flip back to pages before the arrival of eh, herve and their likes.

You seem to have a level head on your shoulders, articulate your opinions well, would love to see more input from you instead of reading the same old drivel from the ilk.

desert wrote:because they are not here to discuss, seek knowledge or anything rational for that matter but just wave their flags.

philosophy-dubai/did-jesus-say-faith-without-works-dead-t38145.html

event horizon wrote:Thanks for explaining it to me. I just thought if you were going to pontificate about the Bible, you might as well know who the actual author is.

Yup.

It looks like we've got ourselves a loon who wants to explain to us the meaning of a book he's never read !

Try to be consistent, otherwise you're as much of a troll as your friend who knows all things of the Bible from missionary DOT com websites...and even then, he doesn't get the basics right.

shafique wrote:(Young eh - the parable of Khidr in ch18 of the Quran is there for all to read. Google is your friend - but first just read the verses from v65 onwards. Perhaps your belief in talking donkeys is clouding your judgement as to what is a parable and what should be taken literally - see 3.7 in the Quran if still confused)

Was it a dream, a 'vision' (like the book of Revelation is, and therefore doesn't necessarily need to be interpreted literally)? Or do you need to buy time to come up with a credible explanation for a prophet of God, Khidr, taking orders from Allah and killing an innocent boy?

Where does the clear Koran state as such anyways?

This particular discussion should now be in the religion forum, as it deals with eh's beliefs and evasion on Biblical passages -from talking donkeys to whether Christians should ignore Timothy or Paul over whether 'works are required' (see below).

But, given we are here - let me address the points:

Looks like the believer in Talking Donkeys is up to his usual tactics again - this time fantasising that a parable about Moses is as real as the proverbial talking donkeys. (Hint: eh, not everyone believes things like you do).

That said, the link he give is a classic example. 1. He quotes a snippet without reference. 2. He goes on to make weasley excuses when asked about the contradictions in the Bible (a direct consequence of the snippet he quotes). Thanks eh - enlightening to see your tactics at work. Those that click on the link will see how you're misrepresenting the thread - there it shows that you acknowledged 2 errors in your understanding before starting the thread, and then refused to answer a simple question about a contradiction in the Bible.

I think it is pretty clear he is ashamed of his beliefs. But let's see if he does choose to answer the points below in the respective threads.

shafique wrote:
Please don't tell me eh is bringing up his straw man AGAIN. He failed to show I believe in superstitions in the past (he's pretty used to failing).

By contrast we have many examples of eh's own evasions on some Biblical events (Biblical beliefs he hasn't condemned and which his fellow American Christians believe in literally):

1. Talking donkeys (not to be confused with the loons aka 'talking a$$s' ):
philosophy-dubai/talking-donkeys-bible-evasion-t42810.html

2. Earth can stop revolving for a day (and the Bible and Science generally):
philosophy-dubai/talking-donkeys-bible-evasion-t42810.html

3. Eh's belief in Rapture (where he will magically disappear one day):
philosophy-dubai/rapture-day-t46391.html
philosophy-dubai/rapture-t39043.html


So, whilst I'm still waiting for any illogical beliefs within Islam (rather than some Muslims with superstitious beliefs/interpretations), perhaps eh can shed light on his own un-scientific beliefs.

Cheers,
Shafique

Blimey sunshine! You're getting a bit desperate when you start reposting your own posts! Do you like the sound of your own voice or what?
You are displaying the classic signs of a bigot!

Where's my smiley faces? LOL

Looks like the believer in Talking Donkeys is up to his usual tactics again - this time fantasising that a parable about Moses is as real as the proverbial talking donkeys. (Hint: eh, not everyone believes things like you do).

Let's see the evidence the passage of a prophet of Allah killing a boy is a parable. Are you ashamed that your prophet, Khidr, carried out an act incompatible with modern standards and ethics?

If so, I can understand the diversion and your buying time to come up with a more convincing argument. On the other hand, Revelation is a dream and is interpreted by many Christians figuratively. Also, unlike Muslim texts, Christians are not said to take part in fighting against the enemy - in Islam's case, Jews are specifically singled out for attack (along with all unbelievers, of course) which should explain why the Islamic world is so deeply anti-Semitic to this day and age.

I'm not ashamed for NOT believing in talking donkeys or talking ants.

It is clear to me that the parable of Moses and Khidr is a parable - but I understand your desire to believe it to be literal. Isn't this because you desperately want to divert attention away from your extremist views about killings of civilians being justified?

I don't condone the killing of kids - and the Quranic parable doesn't help you on this fundamental point.

The Bible does contain some explicit verses, such as:

Blessed is the one who grabs your babies and smashes them against a rock

Psalms 137

You remain the only religious extremist condoning the killing of children. Do you take Psalm 137 literally?

Cheers,
Shafique

Enough with the smoke and mirrors, where does the Koran say the story of your child murdering prophet, Khidr (acting on Allah's will) was a 'parable'?