Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

MCL, sorry I can't see your point concerning the Iraqi bombings. Yes I didn't start a thread on that, but I also didn't start a thread on the recent Israeli bombings of Gaza either.

I don't see what either bombings has to do with the thread's topic about the proportion of religious groups that justify the use of violence (note that I'm not arguing that there are NO Muslims who justify violence, only that the polls show that those that do are less numerous as a proportion than other groups).

(Happy to start a thread about any particular bombing and give you my views on them... but can we stay on subject here for now?)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:MCL, sorry I can't see your point concerning the Iraqi bombings. Yes I didn't start a thread on that, but I also didn't start a thread on the recent Israeli bombings of Gaza either.

I don't see what either bombings has to do with the thread's topic about the proportion of religious groups that justify the use of violence (note that I'm not arguing that there are NO Muslims who justify violence, only that the polls show that those that do are less numerous as a proportion than other groups).

(Happy to start a thread about any particular bombing and give you my views on them... but can we stay on subject here for now?)

Cheers,
Shafique

I think you may just wanna add that the poll was conducted by a Gallup center located in UAE. The Abu Dhabi Gallup Center is a Gallup research hub based in the capital of the United Arab Emirates. It is the product of a partnership between Gallup, the world's leading public opinion research firm, and the Crown Prince Court of Abu Dhabi.
So it's not really an independent Gallup poll.

http://www.abudhabigallupcenter.com/148 ... uture.aspx


With respect to the Iraqi bombings? I don't know Shafique, I just thought that it would have added to your credibility had you offered unbiased coverage of relevant attacks on religious institutions. That's all.

I wasn't aware that I had started any threads on, or commented on stats concerning attacks on religous institutions - in Iraq or elsewhere.

This thread is about published polls on the proportions of different faiths that justify the targetting and killing of civilians. Muslims in different countries are less likely to support this than other groups, the polls show.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I wasn't aware that I had started any threads on, or commented on stats concerning attacks on religous institutions - in Iraq or elsewhere.

This thread is about published polls on the proportions of different faiths that justify the targetting and killing of civilians. Muslims in different countries are less likely to support this than other groups, the polls show.

Cheers,
Shafique

No? Well you did comment extensively on Norway didn't you? But for some reason you had nothing to say about the Mumbai blats, just like how your silence on the Iraqi blasts is deafening. Does get me thinking.

Good to have you thinking.

Anything to say on this topic though - reminder it is about polls showing that Muslims are less likely to justify the targetting and killings of civilians. (And I guess, that does apply to Iraq, Mumbai and Norway)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I wasn't aware that I had started any threads on, or commented on stats concerning attacks on religous institutions - in Iraq or elsewhere.

This thread is about published polls on the proportions of different faiths that justify the targetting and killing of civilians. Muslims in different countries are less likely to support this than other groups, the polls show.

Cheers,
Shafique

Why don't you try with polls where Muslims and non-Muslims were asked the same questions?

Sorry, I thought I'd made it clear that the polls are factual - not the stuff you usually make up.

shafique wrote:Unlike the loon websites which make up stats, these survey results are real.

Percentage of people who said it is sometimes justifiable to target and kill civilians:

Mormon-Americans 64%
Christian-Americans 58%
Jewish-Americans 52%
Israeli Jews 52%
Palestinians* 51%
No religion/Atheists/Agnostics (U.S.A.) 43%
Nigerians* 43%
Lebanese* 38%
Spanish Muslims 31%
Muslim-Americans 21%
German Muslims 17%
French Muslims 16%
British Muslims 16%
Egyptians* 15%
Indonesians* 13%
Jordanians* 12%
Pakistanis* 5%
Turks* 4%
*refers to Muslims only

Therefore, Muslims in every country are less likely than U.S. Jews and Christians (and Israeli Jews) to believe that it is sometimes justified to target and kill civilians.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/08/survey ... -israelis/

No hype, just facts.

Cheers,
Shafique[/quote]

You mean comparing the results of polls that ask different questions isn't hype (to put it mildly)?

Asking a mooslim if he is likely to justify violence or not is like asking a tax payer if he cheats on his taxes.

According to tax polls, 13% find it acceptable to cheat on taxes, but 40% actually do it
The fact is that these polls are a joke.

LOL - why are loons allergic to facts?

Young eh is the first one to quote extracts of surveys which he copies from loon websites, but when presented with the full picture, suddenly there's a lot of sour grapes.

Note that no attempt has been made to show that the polls aren't factual - just some hot air. As usual.

Cheers,
Shafique

The dispute is comparing poll results where those surveyed were asked different questions. That should be simple enough logic.

LOL - 10/10 for persistency eh.

However, the polls' results are startling.

58% of your fellow Christian Americans justify killing of civlians under some circumstances - and in all other instances Muslims poll lower. The Muslim Americans were asked the same question in the same poll.

Which particular question posed to Muslims is offending you or is misrepresenting the facts?

Cheers,
Shafique

What part of Muslims were not asked the same question as Americans do you not understand?

I asked you first. What question is offending you?

The 58% response of your fellow Christians is pretty high. Do you want to address that first?

Cheers,
Shafique

Bump for shafique. Any comment on this Loonwatch special?

58% of your fellow Christian Americans justify killing of civlians under some circumstances - and in all other instances Muslims poll lower.

Wrong, Liar.

Muslims were asked if they support suicide bombing civilians in the name of Islam.

Americans were never asked if they support suicide bombings and suicide bombings in the name of religion.

Muslims in the Muslim world and Americans were asked different questions.

Another epic failure eh. Do you really think people will believe your spin and not go and check out the actual poll results (after all, unlike Memri and your blog cuts and pastes, the full references have been given).

The main poll asks Americans the same question. Your fellow American Christians are more likely to condone violence (like you do on this forum) than Muslims in America, and indeed even more likely to condone violence than American Jews and Israeli Jews! Fact.

In all the other available polls around the world, a lower % of Muslims than the % of American Christians justifying violence against civilians. The Pew survey actually asks about "suicide bombings AND other forms of violence against civilian targets". Once again, your failure has been exposed.

No lies, no spin - just you trying to deny reality. Again.

Cheers,
Shafique

In all the other available polls around the world, a lower % of Muslims than the % of American Christians justifying violence against civilians. The Pew survey actually asks about "suicide bombings AND other forms of violence against civilian targets". Once again, your failure has been exposed.

Quite the lie, quite the spin.

Muslims around the world were asked about suicide bombings done to defend Islam. As if leading off a question asking about suicide bombings is not going to get different results than a question where suicide bombing is not part of the question, let alone the first and only method of violence specifically named.

American Christians were not asked the question if they support suicide bombings and other forms of violence against civilians to defend Christianity.

The results from two different questions are combined and treated equally.

No lies, no spin - just you trying to deny reality. Again.

Congrats, you're crazy and a liar.

Fail.

The question posed in the Pew survey was not ONLY about suicide bombing, but about other deliberate attacks on civilians too. Those saying it was 'never justified' were specifically saying that violence against civilians 'for any reason' was not justified. Read the question again.

You just don't want to address the fact that 58% of American Christians polled justify the killing of civilians - and that the figures for other groups is lower.

Cheers,
Shafique

Actually, liar, the question you're quoting was posed to European Muslims only.

Like Muslims elsewhere in Europe only a tiny minority of French Muslims (16%) say that suicide bombings and other violence against civilian targets in defense of Islam can often or sometimes be justified.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/50/the-fren ... connection

Yet another of your lies exposed.

Muslims in the Muslim world in the Pew Poll were asked if they support suicide bombing civilians to defend Islam:

In the Pew Global Attitudes Project poll released on Thursday, 68 percent of Palestinian Muslim respondents said suicide bombings against civilians were justifiable “to defend Islam from its enemies.”...

Elsewhere, the proportion of Muslim respondents supporting suicide bombings against civilians was 15 percent in Egypt, 13 percent in Indonesia, 12 percent in Jordan, seven percent in Israel (Muslim Arab citizens), five percent in Pakistan and four percent in Turkey.

http://cnsnews.com/node/53865

Just another one of your and LW's lies exposed.

The question posed in the Pew survey was not ONLY about suicide bombing, but about other deliberate attacks on civilians too.

I believed I discussed this for European Muslims in my last post. What part of my response didn't you understand?

Muslims around the world were asked about suicide bombings done to defend Islam. As if leading off a question asking about suicide bombings is not going to get different results than a question where suicide bombing is not part of the question, let alone the first and only method of violence specifically named.

American Christians were not asked the question if they support suicide bombings and other forms of violence against civilians to defend Christianity.

European Muslims were asked if violence against civilians in the context of religion was justified - and the question specifically mentioned suicide bombings as a form of violence.

Those saying it was 'never justified' were specifically saying that violence against civilians 'for any reason' was not justified.

Wrong, liar. Those saying "never justified" were specifically saying that suicide bombings and violence against civilians to defend Islam was not justified. We don't know if they believed violence against civilians for all reasons was justified since they were never asked that.

You're such a liar. It gets tedious calling out all your lies at this point.

Fail.

58% of American Christians justified killing civilians for some reason, same question was asked to American Muslims and only 21% justified killing of civilians.

The Pew survey measured how many Muslims said killing of civilians was NEVER justified, for whatever reason. Note the 'for whatever reason'.

Cheers,

Shafique

The Pew survey measured how many Muslims said killing of civilians was NEVER justified, for whatever reason

No it didn't Liar.

European Muslims were asked if killing to defend Islam was justified using suicide bombings and other non-specified uses of violence.

Muslims in the Muslim world were asked if suicide attacks against civilians were justified to defend Islam.

Killing to defend Islam is not opposing killing for every reason.

Your personal attacks can't disguise your failure.

Just read the question again - the majority of Muslims said that killing civilians was never justified FOR WHATEVER REASON.

Your denials won't change the question.

Cheers,

Shafique

the majority of Muslims said that killing civilians was never justified FOR WHATEVER REASON.

Uh, no, it doesn't say for whatever reason. The poll in the Muslim world asked Muslims if they support suicide bombings to defend Islam. Only one reason.

The poll in Europe was similarly worded.

Uh, yes - I suggest you go and re-read the question and stop embarrassing yourself.

Now - the fact remains that 58% of American Christians shared your view that violence against civilians is sometimes justified, and a lower proportion of American Muslims, American Atheists, American Jews etc shared this view when asked exactly the same question.

The Pew survey showed that Muslims who said that violence against civilians, FOR WHATEVER REASON, were in the majority. Hence the title of this thread.



Cheers,

Shafique

Uh, yes - I suggest you go and re-read the question and stop embarrassing yourself.

I suggest you quote the survey question directly instead of continuing your lie.

The survey question asked if killing civilians to defend Islam was justified.

Killing to defend Islam is only one reason.

Now stop lying and quote the survey.

It would be the same as asking someone if killing over a game is ever justified.

If someone said "No, it's never 'ok' to kill over a game", that doesn't mean they oppose killing for whatever reason.

You're a compulsive liar and you've been busted, again.

You didn't re-read the question as I suggested, did you?

The Pew survey showed that Muslims who said that violence against civilians, FOR WHATEVER REASON, were in the majority. Hence the title of this thread. You imagination about the question does not change this fact.

(I'm seeing how long it takes you to actually quote the question.. I'm not going to do so, because you're the one who is in denial, and I'm going to be counting how many times you call be a liar before you actually read and post the question in full. )

Cheers,
Shafique

The Pew survey showed that Muslims who said that violence against civilians, FOR WHATEVER REASON, were in the majority.

No, it didn't, liar. The only reason was for defending Islam. That's one reason. That's the only reason for killing Muslims respondents were asked. That's why you won't directly quote the poll questions I quoted previously - because you're a compulsive liar.

It's not anymore accurate than to extrapolate a response from someone saying they do not support killing over a game for any reason to claiming that person does not support killing for any reason.

'm not going to do so

You won't because you can't, it would expose your lies.

Your denial is now embarrassing and completely transparent.

58% of American Christians justified the killings of civilians, a higher % of American Muslims asked the same question. The Pew survey showed that the majority Muslims around the world said that killing of civilians FOR WHATEVER REASON was NEVER JUSTIFIED.

Your failure is complete. Your accusations of lies are hollow.

Cheers,

Shafique

The Pew survey showed that the majority Muslims around the world said that killing of civilians FOR WHATEVER REASON was NEVER JUSTIFIED.

Quote the poll then, liar.

Muslim respondents in the world were asked if killing for one cause was ever justified.

That's not a blanket statement against killing anymore than those who answer "No" if they would ever kill over a game reject killing for whatever reason is.

I've explained this several times now.

That's why the liar refuses to directly quote the poll questions.

Fail.

shafique wrote:(I'm seeing how long it takes you to actually quote the question.. I'm not going to do so, because you're the one who is in denial, and I'm going to be counting how many times you call be a liar before you actually read and post the question in full. )

Cheers,

Shafique