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Shaf, Catholic pupils attend religious instructions on Wednesday afternoons, always has been and still is. They leave the school and go to the catholic school and get there on their own. A similar arrangement was made for the Muslim students, with the condition that they were to return to the school. I'm sure no one had a problem with that arrangement. But, apparently they, and I would say the majority, weren't interested in performing Friday prayer nor their education - cutting prayer and cutting school!!! It appears that schools need to babysit them as they can't be trusted, hence moving prayer into the school. The school gave them an inch and they took a yard.

The school has 300-400 Muslim students. I bet when they were free to leave school to go to the mosque - and not return to school - the majority of Muslims were going to the Friday prayer. If there are 50 students in that photo attending prayer time provided in the school, that speaks volumes. Kids being kids??? I wonder what the Hindu's willl be protesting? and who will follow. Will they be looking for equal consideration? Accommodate one, accommodate all - or don't show any special allowances and treat everyone equal.

Bora Bora - I agree, treat all the same - if you make allowances for one group, by all means make allowances for all.

Canadian school kids are just like any other school kids I guess - give them an opportunity to cut school and many won't be able to resist the temptation. But that's not the point here, is it? This fact is an argument in favour of keeping the schools in school and letting them attend a service over lunch time.

Hey, if the Hindus, Bahais, Sikhs etc want to have services over lunchtime - why not?

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, the "services" are not held over lunch time. My understanding is that they are conducted after lunch, during a class period.

If you accommodate all religions where does it stop? Muslims are required to pray 5 times a day. Is that next: allow for those prayers that fall during school session every day? I don't know how Hindus practice, maybe there is something they should be performing during the day? Every religion has a way of practicing which could take place during school session. If concessions are made for all religions during school hours, there is constant disruption of the educational process.

I think there is a difference from cutting class to goof off and cutting prayer. Some were probably doing it to take a "break" and return to class, others were leaving the school under the guise of attending prayer and cutting prayer and classes, and there were students attending prayer and returning to school.

When you get caught cutting class in a public school to goof off action is taken by the school and usually parents are notified and the student is spoken to. When a student attending Catholic reglious instruction doesn't attend class, parents are notified by the Catholic school that their child missed a class. There is monitoring of attendance in both the public school and the religious school. Whereas there was no monitoring for those students who were released to attend prayer at the mosque. When cutting prayer, what action is taken? How do you "penalize" a student for cutting prayer? Who addresses the problem? The public school has no jurisdiction in that department and I'm sure the mosque doesn't take attendance and become responsible for those who leave public school to attend, or not, the prayer. So, to solve the problem, you move the prayer from the MOSQUE to the class room to ensure that those students who choose to pray can. I guess it came to light only when school teachers or administration showed peaks in absenteeism on Friday afternoons.

Apparently many Muslim students don't pray and remain in class, if you go by the numbers. If it's an option to pray, why do those girls who are menstruating go to the make shift prayer room, just to sit in the back and not pray???

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/05/mu ... ol-stopped

Can't say I disagree with that much either, I'm sort of undecided on this issue. On one hand it does not do anyone any harm if it does not interfere with anything like studies etc etc and done on ones free time and on the other hand where does it stop in a multi religious society.

Its a very hard struggle for a country like Canada with no real easy answers. Sikhs are allowed to wear the ceremonial dagger or kirpan, not subjected to helmet laws. Recently a pastafarian in Austria won the right to wear a collander on his drivers license pic so on and so forth.

But I still lean towards if it does not do any harm to anyone it shouldn't be a problem but having said that. Islam is a pretty flexible religion and there is almost always an alternative. They can move the timings into the lunch break if they must or something along those lines. At then end of the day there are 5 daily prayers and not just one weekly one. If they can manage rest of the week with alternatives I'm sure they can think of something for friday prayers aswell.

I have friends who live in Canada and the USA and some do attend Friday prayers and all have somekind of understanding with their employers. Either that is counted as their lunch hour or come in early or put in some extra time etc etc and it all works out fine from what I hear. At the end of the day no one is bending any laws or bending the constitution and is harmless.

But blowing this out of proption like the fan bois have into some kind of take over blah blah is nothing but absurd to say the least. The whole title of the thread is misleading like entire schools were evacuated and converted into mosques and that says it all.

@DDS: Companies and government (city, state, federal) are allowed to be flexible with employees at will as long as there is no discrimination. There is no question of separation of church and state. Catholics show up late at work on Ash Wednesday, will leave early if they are working Christmas Eve, Jewish people leave early for religious holidays, and provide flexibility for other religions if it is required.

There is some extremism in the article that you posted. Clearly separation of church (any religion) and state isn't enough of an argument. The justification on both sides will continue to grow, get louder and more extreme, each side to make their point. The only person who seems to be standing firm is the principal. Can only wonder how he is going to handle all the other requests that will be coming to accommodate the religious needs of others.

One third of the school is Muslim and it would be a safe assumption to say that only halal meat is served? (Reference the Hindus request for non-halal meat in the article.) If there's no pork or ham, that would be depriving Christians or those whose religion allows them to eat it. Jews who follow their religion don't eat shell fish, does that mean there isn't any shell fish served (shrimp?) Is that school revolving around and accommodating only Muslims???? It's definitely a Pandora's box.

I'm trying to comprehend the logistical nightmare of the school accommodating worship services for Sikhs, Ahmadis, Ismailis, Bahais, Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Wicca, Hindus, et al.

At the very least, Canadian public schools would have to cater to each faith and denomination, giving them their own room and quickly shuffling any staff and students who are not of that faith out so students who are of that faith can begin their little prayer service. You can easily have ten separate sermons delivered at any Canadian school each week. That's ten separate rooms that would need to be vacated for religious sermons.

I'd like to see a supporter address the ridiculousness of this idea if fully implemented.

I also see the issue of gender equality has been forgotten. It's fine for Muslims to practice gender apartheid and superstitious beliefs of menstruating women in a private setting but they have to accommodate to Canadian human rights policy if they wish to hold prayer service on school grounds during school hours. It's as simple as that.

And of course, this infringement of the separation between church and state and of state promoting religion should never happen in the first place. Previous Canadian legal experts agreed that it was not permissible to use school grounds to distribute Bibles to some students (not all as some trolls have claimed for some reason). The same should be applied to schools being used to hold actual religious services which is a much greater violation of the separation between church and state than book donation was.

DDS - I stated in my first post that I too thought this was being blown out of proportion - 'mountains and molehills'.

It transpires that there are at least 6 other schools in Canada that allow Friday prayers and that the Toronto school board has clearly thought this through and presents their argument why accommodating this 40 min prayer doesn't violate Canadian laws (or indeed the principle of separation between church and state.

I think it is indeed valid to debate the stance - and indeed one can draw a different conclusion on whether the School Board is right on this point.

What is funny is the loon reactions - herve is the most open, he DOES believe it is a plot to take over. Others have expressed crocodile tears over the girls who don't take part in the formal prayers (but are in the hall for the sermon). Now we're getting scare stories about what MIGHT happen if there were calls for other groups to be similarly accommodated.

Well, on the last point - if it happens, let the schools apply the same logic and consideration, I say. Heck - I'd support the Jedi Knights being allowed to practice with their light sabres!!

Cheers,
Shafique

This is Barbara Hall on a radio program discussing why the school is allowing this:



You can decide for yourself if her incoherent replies sound like she has 'thought it through'.

(or indeed the principle of separation between church and state.

Actually, their argument was never that this doesn't violate church and state. They argued church and state separation has been superseded in this instance.

I say. Heck - I'd support the Jedi Knights being allowed to practice with their light sabres!!

Great, then schools are circus sideshows as opposed to centers for actual learning. Once again, you demonstrate that you haven't thought this through - not that you would - your position is in consideration of one religion only. You'll want Muslim rights and if others get to join in on the fiasco, so be it, but that's a tertiary issue for you and you don't have to give it much thought.

Crocodile tears is funny. Every non-Muslim commentator I've read expressed that public schools are centers for superstitious religious practices (public schools are tacitly endorsing the idea that menstruating girls are impure) that should not be promoted by *THEIR* taxes.

Mountains and Molehills.

Why are you against Jedi Knights practicing for 40 min over lunchtime?


Barbara is quite clear what the Human Rights code says. Pretty strong stuff. Raheel's first analogy is wrong - Christians asking for the Lord's Prayer in class (for all) is not the same as giving Children the place to go for prayers at 12.30 each Friday lunchtime. If Muslims were asking for the Quranic prayers to be said by all in class, I would expect the Schools to refuse this too.



Cheers,
Shafique

Barbara Hall admits to NOT having a lot of the facts in that particular situation. She also uses the word "accommodating" in a very broad sense - across the board without highlighting the school situation. She also admits that there are levels of accommodation - from full blown to not at all. The school board met with parents - which parents?? Parents of the Muslim students?? Or were the parents of all the students present??

Why is Raheel Raza's analogy on the Lord's Prayer in school wrong? This may pop out of Pandora's box. It may come up again by Christian parents and they can argue that they want a priest to come into the school and lead the Christian students in prayer. Then the Jews can ask that a Rabbi come in for their daily prayer. And all the other religions can ask to be accommodated. Having to do that will leave about 45 minutes a day for education.

With regard to human rights, laws, constitution, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Which holds the higher authority?? Barbara Hall basically admits that it is left open for interpretation because what is on the books isn't clear.

Barbara is quite clear what the Human Rights code says.

Actually, she isn't clear at all. She says what form accommodation takes is a big question. But please, go ahead and directly quote Barbara Hall where you think she clearly articulated her position. Her entire discussion on the radio program was incoherent.

Raheel Raza said the onus is on Muslims, not the state, to worship / pray on their own time or in ways that do not violate the secular character of the state - just as all religious groups in Canada do and as she has personally done herself. I like how she mentions that she did not have this privilege in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan when she was a student living there.

I also see that you and Barbara have so far refused to discuss the violation of the Human Rights Code that is taking place by these prayers that you are now citing in your defense of the religious services.

So, basically you're mentioning the Human Rights Code to support your agenda but ignore what has been said from the beginning that the Muslim prayers / sermons are in violation of this very same Human Rights Code you were staking your entire position on.

I couldn't make this kind of loon logic up if I tried.

Bora Bora wrote: She also uses the word "accommodating" in a very broad sense - across the board without highlighting the school situation.

Well, the Human Right's Code talks about 'accommodating' - and in my opinion, providing 40 min period during Friday lunchtime does fit within the meaning of 'accommodating'. (In my opinion)

Bora Bora wrote:
Why is Raheel Raza's analogy on the Lord's Prayer in school wrong?

Because the request was for it to be recited in class by all pupils. Whilst I personally don't have an issue with the Lord's prayer (and know it by heart) - I do think that having all pupils recite violates the separation of Church and State. Similarly, if the Muslims asked for Quranic prayers to be recited by all, that would be wrong.

The prayers on Friday are not for all - but an accommodation for those who wish to attend.

I repeat, I have no problems with Christians etc wanting to hold a service for 40 min at lunch time only for Christians. That too would be an accommodation.

Cheers,
Shafique

So the majority of the Muslim kids took time off of school to go to mosque, but never did, or did but never came back to school for the rest of the classes? I'm sure their parents must have been pleased with that. How wonderful for them that the public school system is available to round up their kids and babysit them so that they can not get away with avoiding prayer. Don't you think that other religious groups would love to encourage their young people to be more faithful and dutiful to their religion too? Maybe it is a good idea to start up lunch time religious services in other faiths so that members of society can have more religion in their lives. The public schools can be an extension of the local religious organizations to help them reach their goals. Isn't that grand?

What's that sound? Is it goal posts moving?

But let me humour you - no, I don't see any problem at all in other groups being given the same rights - giving the a place for 40 min of worship once a week at lunchtime. I think overall it would be a good thing for each group to worship/meditate according to their own customs for one lunchtime a week.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, where did it say that the request was for ALL students to say the Lord's prayer? I guess I missed that one. I'm sure those that requested it argued that those who chose not to say it could sit it out or had a fair argument as to exclude those who did not want to partipate.

I'm disappointed in you Shaf. You, a person who demands one present the facts and stats to support their statements, supports someone who clearly admits to falling short of having most of the facts!! Barbara Hall may know what the Human Rights Code says, but seems a bit confused as to how to apply it - errrr, because she doesn't have all the facts? She is also confused about to what length accommodating can be applied - errr, again because she didn't have all the facts? She comes across as being totally unqualified to hold the position of Commissioner.

I see that you take issue with some saying what MIGHT happen. What is the difference between someone saying what might happen, or could happen, or may happen, and what one PREDICTS could happen? Can I remind you as to how many times you claimed victory for your PREDICTIONS?

event horizon wrote:He has to twist arguments and make obtuse comments (and repeat himself without any new material until people don't bother to reply) because his platform is inherently weak. I think by now it's obvious he's more interested in silencing opposing views

Its pure gaslighting.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

event horizon wrote:He has to twist arguments and make obtuse comments (and repeat himself without any new material until people don't bother to reply) because his platform is inherently weak. I think by now it's obvious he's more interested in silencing opposing views

Its pure gaslighting.

And that’s all he’s ever done from his very first post on the subject!

Bora Bora wrote:Shaf, where did it say that the request was for ALL students to say the Lord's prayer? I guess I missed that one.

Listen to it again - the host calls her on this, and says it was to be said in the classroom.

Bora Bora wrote:I'm sure those that requested it argued that those who chose not to say it could sit it out or had a fair argument as to exclude those who did not want to partipate.

And you are basing this on?

Bora Bora wrote:I'm disappointed in you Shaf. You, a person who demands one present the facts and stats to support their statements, supports someone who clearly admits to falling short of having most of the facts!!

The facts seem to be clear to me. The TDSB is allowing these services at lunchtime, but in the past refused calls for the Lord's Prayer in the classroom. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'm happy to be corrected.

Did the school board refuse to let Christians say the Lord's Prayer in a separate room at lunchtime (or some other time)?

Thanks for sharing your view that Barbara Hall is confused - I didn't get that from the interview. She was consistent with the TDSB statement posted earlier.

Cheers,
Shafique

-- Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:37 pm --

Interesting article from last month:

Schools ignore prayer rules
Lawyer who fought for secularism as student reveals new violations
By: Nick Martin

Posted: 06/24/2011 1:00 AM | Comments: 0 (including replies)

Children pray in public-school classrooms during school hours throughout Manitoba -- apparently in violation of provincial rules that the department of education says it will not enforce.

The Lord's Prayer is being read over the intercom by the principal or in classrooms by teachers.

Schools allow parent councils to organize petitions for religious exercises through the schools, and in a few cases, directly help organize them.
...

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breaki ... 78269.html

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2011 ... 75271.html

Interesting....

I read this article on three major newspapers publishing in three different countries before I saw it on DF. Wonder why it's getting so much importance.

shafique wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:Shaf, where did it say that the request was for ALL students to say the Lord's prayer? I guess I missed that one.

Listen to it again - the host calls her on this, and says it was to be said in the classroom.

I heard her statement. If you notice I put the emphasis on the word ALL.

Bora Bora wrote:I'm sure those that requested it argued that those who chose not to say it could sit it out or had a fair argument as to exclude those who did not want to partipate.

And you are basing this on?

Common sense??? Reading the article you posted below, so I guess I can base my statement on:

Tait's freedom-of-information request showed that at R.F. Morrison School in Seven Oaks School Division, Manitoba's most diverse school division, the Lord's Prayer was read over the intercom each morning. Students not taking part went to the library or stood quietly in the classroom among praying classmates.

Bora Bora wrote:I'm disappointed in you Shaf. You, a person who demands one present the facts and stats to support their statements, supports someone who clearly admits to falling short of having most of the facts!!

The facts seem to be clear to me. The TDSB is allowing these services at lunchtime, but in the past refused calls for the Lord's Prayer in the classroom. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'm happy to be corrected.

As clear as mud.

Did the school board refuse to let Christians say the Lord's Prayer in a separate room at lunchtime (or some other time)?

I don't know, you tell me.

Thanks for sharing your view that Barbara Hall is confused - I didn't get that from the interview. She was consistent with the TDSB statement posted earlier.

Cheers,
Shafique

She was consistently confused.

Schools ignore prayer rules
Lawyer who fought for secularism as student reveals new violations
By: Nick Martin

Posted: 06/24/2011 1:00 AM | Comments: 0 (including replies)

Children pray in public-school classrooms during school hours throughout Manitoba -- apparently in violation of provincial rules that the department of education says it will not enforce.

The Lord's Prayer is being read over the intercom by the principal or in classrooms by teachers.

Schools allow parent councils to organize petitions for religious exercises through the schools, and in a few cases, directly help organize them.
...

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breaki ... 78269.html

It is a violation of separation of church and state. As was noted,

When the province gets a complaint, it reminds the school division about the guidelines, but beyond that, it's up to individuals to pursue complaints with the Manitoba Human Rights Commission or with the courts, Yeo said.

-- Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:27 pm --

Misery Called Life wrote:http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2011/07/05/18375271.html

Interesting....

I read this article on three major newspapers publishing in three different countries before I saw it on DF. Wonder why it's getting so much importance.

It is very controversial MCL, but so far only Shaf sees it as many people making a mountain out of a molehill.

I just happen to agree with the Toronto School Board and think Barbara Hall's explanations weren't confused in the slightest.

What is interesting though is the earlier story about the schools in Manitoba where the Lord's Prayer is being recited over the intercom in clear violation of regulations. No one seems to be disputing the facts in these cases - therefore we'd expect a bigger uproar for these schools. I'm not sure that is the case though.. is it?

Interesting.

Cheers,
Shafique

Yet Bibles can't be distributed (not sure if they're allowed either) on the grounds of public schools during school hours to students with permission slips to receive them.

Schools in Manitoba are openly flouting the regulations by having the Lord's Prayer recited in class.

eh - do you condemn this or not?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Schools in Manitoba are openly flouting the regulations by having the Lord's Prayer recited in class.

eh - do you condemn this or not?

Cheers,
Shafique

If true .....Absolutely!

shafique wrote:What's that sound? Is it goal posts moving?

But let me humour you - no, I don't see any problem at all in other groups being given the same rights - giving the a place for 40 min of worship once a week at lunchtime. I think overall it would be a good thing for each group to worship/meditate according to their own customs for one lunchtime a week.

Cheers,
Shafique

You must have faulty hearing

You claim before that it is optional for students to attend. The school board was flexible enough by letting the Muslim students leave school to go to the mosque for prayer. The children made a choice - which was to leave school and not attend mosque, or attend mosque but not return to school for the rest of their classes. The parents are the ones who can discuss the issue of responsibility with their children about skipping mosque and skipping the remainder of their school day. The sensible solution is not to make a public school an extension of the mosque.

Many very religious people would like to see their kids pray at school - but they should put their kids in a religious school then, not ask for secular public schools to arrange optional prayer services during the lunch hours.

I oppose the Lord's Prayer in school, obviously.

The school board and my point is that the 40 min service is not for all who attend the school - therefore it is just accommodating to the needs of those who wish to use this accommodation.

Contrast that with what the schools in Manitoba are doing, and there is a clear distinction - there they are saying the Lord's Prayer in class, either teachers leading it or via the intercom.

The distinction is that with the Friday prayer service, one has to opt in - whereas with the Lords Prayer pupils have to actively opt out. The latter violates separation, the former doesn't IMO.

But what is clear is that the schools in Manitoba are indeed in violation of the rules. There the condemnation should be unreserved, and I'd expect the media coverage to be greater there. But it isn't.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, the reason is that the majority of Manitoba is Christian and a one-minute prayer in the morning announcements simply doesn't seem to bother people. It is just a routine that has little to no meaning for most students. I personally think it shouldn't be said anymore because it does violate the rules. I hope that they will remove the Lord's Prayer in light of the recent controversy over religion in schools.

Like I said, I don't think anyone should conclude that the TDSB controversy is only happening because Islamophobic people are complaining. We can agree to disagree on that one too though.

kanelli wrote:Shaf, the reason is that the majority of Manitoba is Christian and a one-minute prayer in the morning announcements simply doesn't seem to bother people. It is just a routine that has little to no meaning for most students. I personally think it shouldn't be said anymore because it does violate the rules. I hope that they will remove the Lord's Prayer in light of the recent controversy over religion in schools.

Like I said, I don't think anyone should conclude that the TDSB controversy is only happening because Islamophobic people are complaining. We can agree to disagree on that one too though.

I would assume that the students in the schools are Christian. All it would take is one Muslim to be enrolled and all h.e.l.l would break out. Regardless, if the school majority being Christian, and non Christians are excused from prayer, it is still a question of separation of church and state. BUT, apparently the school is following guidelines as set out............the same way the prinicipal who is allowing a section of a school to be turned into a mosque for 40 minutes is justifying that decision based on guidelines.

I'm sure those guidelines are not carved in stone, as are the rules under the Commission of Human Rights, therefore amendments can be made, and should be made to ensure separation of church and state.

Perhaps your assumption is correct, I don't know.

What I do know is that the schools are in clear violation of the rules. No ifs or buts here - as the article makes clear.

But, nice to see you coming up with some arguments in favour of the action. I respect this view of yours in favour of the Lord's Prayer being said by all. (I personally don't have an issue with this - but am just pointing out that this IS in violation of the code).

I'm not sure which article you read which said that the school is following guidelines - it can't be the one I linked to about the schools in Manitoba who are in violation of the rules.

Cheers,
Shafique

@ al shafique the taliban I think it is pretty arrogant for a fundamentalist islamic like you, who support sharia law and deny every human rights in mooslims countries, to come up here, spin the facts 108 deg and to give lessons to any one in the West. You are the least , far least entitled to do that, you have no credibility . You come to our countries, beg for a passport on false pretense, and when you got it, turn it around, spew your hatred in our streets and our schools and ask us to comform to your standards.
It only works for a short time, soon or later, people realize that, and when they do , they flush out the infection.
you post the same things , over and over , repeating the same posts, DF is not a mosque you dont have to repeat the same prayers hundred times, it does not work on open mind people.
Go back to your cult and kiss the floor.