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shafique wrote:If I missed the answer to my question 'what is the harm' - please let me know. I didn't think I was THAT thick.

Yes, of course, the children can pray at the their desks etc if they didn't have this option - that's not in dispute.

Cheers,
Shafique

Bora Bora wrote:Who is talking about "harm"?? No one is saying that there is any harm in the students praying,

Bora Bora wrote: the argument is that there is a separation of church and state.

America was not founded on the principles of Islam.

shafique wrote:or to have Qurans distributed to all.

the legal precedent in Canada should forbid this type of activity from taking place in schools since previous legal rulings have prohibited students from praying and churches from distributing Bibles to students who have signed parental consent forms to obtain Bibles.

shafique wrote:I would similarly NOT object to any school allowing Christian children to pray for 40 minutes at lunch time once a week. Ergo - no hypocrisy is saying I don't see the harm in the school allowing 40 minutes once a week for Muslim children to attend a service and pray collectively.

shafique wrote:Others believe that the School is violating the separation of Church and State when it allows a collective prayer and sermon for Muslims to take place in a school hall - for a grand total of 40 min each Friday lunch time. I think this is a valid argument, but one I don't agree with - on the grounds that the school is not imposing religious values etc on the whole school, only providing a place for Muslims to pray for that 40 minutes.

shafique wrote:What would violate this separation would be acts which have been banned - eg. all Students to say prayers or all students to be given scripture of one religion.

shafique wrote:As for girls having their period sitting out the congregational prayer after the sermon - I don't see what the issue is really. They attended the sermon - and they would attend classes normally. When it comes to the congregational prayer, they sit it out. Where's the beef? It's not like they've been excluded from the room or anything.

"There is no reason for children not being Muslim to be forced to sit outside," she said. The Congress noted that Ismailis and Ahmadiyyas were also excluded as they are not recognized as Muslims by mainstream groups.

kanelli wrote:So having multiple religions holding religious services during school hours on public school premises is not infringing on the rule of separation of religion and state?

passerby
9:18 PM on July 5, 2011
1) All extra-curricular activities for all (muslim and non-muslim) students in the gym/cafeteria are cancelled for Fridays, as is use of the cafeteria by any teacher who wants to work on a performance with a large group of students on curricular topic.

2) The heating and maintenance of the cafeteria are paid for by the board. This means, essentially, the board is still paying for religious instruction exclusively for one ethnic group attending the school

3) The superintendant is quoted as saying he can't guarantee any imam coming in to the school won't be making objectionable remarks about gays, women, other ethnic groups as he can't interfere with a group's religious instruction (See the Toronto Sun for his remarks). And all this will take place in a public school during the school day. (Get ready for a lot of homophobic, anti-Jew, pro-traditional women talks.) Extremist views will, of course, be understood to be condoned by the school, as this is taking place on school property when school officials are present in the building.

4) The school board has now recruited public school teachers - and not the parents - to make sure Muslim children attend mosque on Fridays

5) Teachers (many of them women like myself) working in that school will be directing girl children to a room where they will be made to sit at the back of the room - in the fear of inciting boy children into thinking promiscuous thoughts. This, to me, is the most objectionable part of how a public school teacher will spend her day.

6) Get ready for the future war waged on a school's timetable and classrooms as other ethnic groups insist on inviting their religious leaders into the schools to conduct their own prayers and education.

shafique wrote: This is not a Moooslim take-over.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:

shafique wrote:or to have Qurans distributed to all.

Of course, that's not what I said:

the legal precedent in Canada should forbid this type of activity from taking place in schools since previous legal rulings have prohibited students from praying and churches from distributing Bibles to students who have signed parental consent forms to obtain Bibles.

The Bibles were never distributed to all children and I never said or implied they were. I was pretty clear that Bibles were only given out to children with permission slips to pick them up. I'll leave it to the reader to decide if you purposely chose to misread my comment.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

event horizon wrote:

shafique wrote:or to have Qurans distributed to all.

Of course, that's not what I said:

the legal precedent in Canada should forbid this type of activity from taking place in schools since previous legal rulings have prohibited students from praying and churches from distributing Bibles to students who have signed parental consent forms to obtain Bibles.

The Bibles were never distributed to all children and I never said or implied they were. I was pretty clear that Bibles were only given out to children with permission slips to pick them up. I'll leave it to the reader to decide if you purposely chose to misread my comment.

One reader finds this behaviour, which is exhibited quite often by poster Shafique, trolling and very passive aggresive.

"While the TDSB is part of a secular public school system, we exist within a broader context of law and public policy that protects and defends human rights. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects freedom of religion. The Ontario Human Rights Code protects an individual's freedom from discriminatory or harassing behaviour based on religion. The Toronto District School Board recognizes and is committed to the values of freedom of religion and freedom from discriminatory or harassing behaviour based on religion.

"The Toronto District School Board takes reasonable steps to provide accommodation to members of religious groups who state that the Board's operations or requirements interfere with their ability to exercise their religious beliefs and practices.

"Where religious accommodation is concerned, the law is quite clear: freedom of religion in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms supersedes the Education Act.

"Here are some facts regarding the law: Indoctrinating religious instruction is prohibited in public boards; non-indoctrinating instruction about religion is allowed; and scriptural readings from a variety of religions and beliefs, and moments of silence, are permitted during opening or closing exercises.

"A primary goal is always to maximize instructional time for our students. We do this entirely within the context of instruction rather than indoctrination in any religion. In this way, we strive to achieve the respectful separation of religious devotion and education within our schools.

"In the case of Valley Park, the school is not teaching 'religious practice'. Rather it is accommodating for the religious and spiritual needs of the students like other schools do around the country different faith communities.

"There have been concerns expressed that the practice of Islam separates individuals by gender. We do not have the authority to tell faith groups how to pray. Students who participate in the prayer services do so voluntarily and with parental permission, no one is obligated to participate.

"We understand this is a very sensitive issue for many, and that there will continue to be differing opinions among members of our communities. However, we believe it is the willingness to have courageous conversations like these that has made Canada the diverse yet cohesive society (it is)."

It’s the scene every Friday at the cafeteria of Valley Park Middle School in Toronto. That’s not a private academy, it’s a public school funded by taxpayers. And yet, oddly enough, what’s going on is a prayer service – oh, relax, it’s not Anglican or anything improper like that; it’s Muslim Friday prayers, and the Toronto District School Board says don’t worry, it’s just for convenience: They put the cafeteria at the local imams’ disposal because otherwise the kids would have to troop off to the local mosque and then they’d be late for Lesbian History class or whatever subject is scheduled for Friday afternoon.

The picture is taken from the back of the cafeteria. In the distance are the boys. They’re male, so they get to sit up front at prayers. Behind them are the girls. They’re female, so they have to sit behind the boys because they’re second-class citizens – not in the whole of Canada, not formally, not yet, but in the cafeteria of a middle school run by the Toronto District School Board they most certainly are.

And the third row? The ones with their backs to us in the foreground of the picture? Well, let the Star’s caption writer explain:

At Valley Park Middle School, Muslim students participate in the Friday prayer service. Menstruating girls, at the very back, do not take part.

Oh. As Kathy Shaidle says:

Yep, that’s part of the caption of the Toronto Star photo.

Yes, the country is Canada and the year is 2011.

Just so. Not some exotic photojournalism essay from an upcountry village in Krappistan. But a typical Friday at a middle school in the largest city in Canada. I forget which brand of tampon used to advertise itself with the pitch "Now with new [whatever] you can go horse-riding, water-ski-ing, ballet dancing, whatever you want to do", but perhaps they can just add the tag: "But not participate in Friday prayers at an Ontario public school."

Some Canadians will look at this picture and react as Miss Shaidle did, or Tasha Kheiriddin in The National Post:

Is this the Middle Ages? Have I stumbled into a time warp, where “unclean” women must be prevented from “defiling” other persons? It’s bad enough that the girls at Valley Park have to enter the cafeteria from the back, while the boys enter from the front, but does the entire school have the right to know they are menstruating?

But a lot of Canadians will glance at the picture and think, “Aw, diversity, ain’t it a beautiful thing?” – no different from the Sikh Mountie in Prince William’s escort. And even if they read the caption and get to the bit about a Toronto public school separating menstruating girls from the rest of the student body and feel their multiculti pieties wobbling just a bit, they can no longer quite articulate on what basis they’re supposed to object to it. Indeed, thanks to the likes of Ontario “Human Rights” Commission chief commissar Barbara Hall, the very words in which they might object to it have been all but criminalized....

"We understand this is a very sensitive issue for many, and that there will continue to be differing opinions among members of our communities. However, we believe it is the willingness to have courageous conversations like these that has made Canada the diverse yet cohesive society (it is)."

Public schools that allow formal prayer services during the day are breaching Ontario’s Education Act, say critics and education experts.

The Toronto District School Board has been embroiled in controversy for allowing an imam to conduct Friday prayer services for Muslim students in the cafeteria at Valley Park Middle School. It argues freedom of religion under the Charter of Rights trumps the Education Act.

“As a public school board, we have a responsibility and an obligation to accommodate faith needs,” education director Chris Spence said Friday.

But one prominent constitutional lawyer said Charter cases have found just the opposite — that religion has no place in public schools.

Meanwhile, others have said if compliance with the act is an issue at Valley Park, that’s easy to address.

“I trained students from Lester Pearson Collegiate near our centre in Scarborough to do that and they’ve been running their own Friday service for years,” said Shaikh Yusuf Badat, imam of the Islamic Foundation of Toronto and director of religious affairs.

“They’ll write sermons about things like honesty and I provide the readings for them from the Qu’ran. There are no hard and fast rules about it having to be led by an imam, and if there are concerns about an outside person coming in, even a Grade 8 student can be trained to deliver a sermon,” he said, adding it would have to be a male.

Valley Park’s prayer services, which until recently operated without complaint, have raised a debate about the place of religion in an increasingly diverse public system. One Hindu group plans protests, and the progressive Muslim Canadian Congress is contemplating legal action to force the board to comply with the Education Act.

“Charter cases have said . . . you cannot accommodate the desire for prayers or religious instruction in a public school,” said constitutional lawyer Ed Morgan, of the University of Toronto.

Something after school, or on weekends, would be fine, he added.

But Muslims must pray at a certain time on Fridays so “we have the duty to accommodate,” said board superintendent Jim Spyropoulos.

The prayer services have also raised the issue of gender rights. One Toronto trustee is concerned about girls being forced to sit at the back of the room, adding the board’s gender equity policy “should be respected.”

Trustee Michael Coteau doesn’t oppose the services but believes the board needs a transparent, consistent policy about what’s allowed given the “mixed messages” of the Education Act, the Charter and human rights code.

Ontario’s Education Act states that “a board shall not permit any person to conduct religious exercises or to provide instruction that includes indoctrination in a particular religion or religious belief in a school.” An exemption is allowed if conducted outside of school hours.

Education Minister Leona Dombrowsky was unavailable for comment despite repeated requests from the Star.

On Friday, her spokesperson said while boards must be “sensitive to religious beliefs . . . it is also important for them to continue the conversation with all parties involved to ensure the accommodations continue to work for both the school and the community.”

Earlier this year, the Star visited Valley Park to observe the prayer service, which runs every Friday from November to March for 30 to 40 minutes during class time after lunch.

Volunteers erected barriers dividing the cafeteria. Boys entered at the front, removed their shoes, forming rows four deep. Girls entered at the back, removed their shoes, donned head scarves and shawls to cover their heads and arms, and assembled behind the barrier.

Menstruating girls sat at the back, permitted to listen but not take part. The service is conducted in Arabic and the school does not monitor what is said.

About 300 to 400 of Valley Park’s 1,200 students take part in the Friday ritual, which parents requested three years ago. Prior, students left school to go to a nearby mosque, but some didn’t make it there and many never returned to class.

The school service was seen as a way to save the lost instructional time and address safety concerns.

“We have people asking what accommodation we provide for Christian students, but the system is set up to accommodate Christian students; Christmas and Easter are already holidays,” said local trustee Gerri Gershon. “Whatever we can do to accommodate the needs of students of other religions, we should do.”

But Tarek Fatah, founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress, said students praying on their own would be fine.

“We believe Islam does not make (Friday prayers) compulsory” because they can be postponed until later in the day, Fatah said, adding his group is also opposed to the treatment of the girls.

Education lawyer Stephen Birman said the school could easily comply with the Education Act by having students who want attend the service do so [color=#BF0000]during lunch or spare period.[/color]

The Peel public board, which also serves a significant Muslim population, allows students to miss class for private or small group prayer, but does not permit religious leaders to conduct services.

At least six York Region schools allow students to attend Friday prayers on school property during lunch period so they don’t have to leave to worship and maybe not return.