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Bit of an interesting article. The story itself talks about the scene in the photograph but the background to the story is a Canadian middle school that turns its cafeteria into a prayer room every Friday - all non-Muslims, students and faculty, are barred from entering during this time, apparently (not sure about the cameraman).

What I find worrying is that this seems to go unchallenged. Public schools are not worship centers. Not only is one religion allowed to practice openly in the school, but the obvious objections as seen in the photograph (separation of girls and boys, girls seen as ritualistically unclean during their period) and that non-Muslims are segregated from Muslim students - an entire cafeteria is sealed off - are tacitly endorsed by the school when they allow these prayers to take place.

I don't know how Canadian schools operate with respect to church and state - American schools are completely secular - but it's hard to imagine that anything similar would be allowed for Christian students in Canada.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editoria ... oung-girls

Is that sheer luck they have the building in the direction of Mecca?

Those prayers shouldn't be happening there in the first place if it is exclusive to only one religion. My university had what they called a "Meditation Room" that students of any religion could visit independently and pray as they please throughout the day. That is at least more egalitarian - any religious, or even non-religious person could use the space whenever they wanted.

The news article you posted is not about the church and state aspect, but feminist aspect of what is happening in those prayer sessions. Boys are in the front, girls pray behind barriers, and menstruating girls are further segregated and not allowed to pray because they are supposedly dirty.

It is just further evidence of how religion subjugates women. Every religion does it, but especially Islam.

In my opinion, Muslim prayer in Canada should see men and women praying next to each other and menstruating women allowed to pray normally instead of being segregated. It is no one's business when a woman is menstruating - segregating is like putting a huge sign on their foreheads. What kind of God would create women to menstruate as a normal bodily function, then spurn them for being dirty and bar them from praying to him/her during that time? Sounds highly illogical to me. Maybe God hates women?

Mountains and Molehills.

Let's see what the fuss is about.

1. School hall is used for Friday prayers. (How is this different from it being used for Ballet, or Choir practice?)
2. Girls are behind boys (again normal)
3. Girls who are menstruating attend the service, but don't take part in physical prayer (i.e. sit them out).

I understand that some girls can choose to sit out P.E. if they are having periods. Aren't these girls (in PE classes) as 'stigmatised' 'isolated' 'humiliated' as the Muslim girls sitting out the formal prayers?

They just happen to be sitting at the back during the formal prayers, because otherwise they would be in the middle of people praying. During the sermon, they are sitting within the congregation.

Therefore they are just like girls who are sitting out when a netball match is going on (for example). If not, how are they different?

Storm in a teacup. Again?



Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:
1. School hall is used for Friday prayers. (How is this different from it being used for Ballet, or Choir practice?)
2. Girls are behind boys (again normal)
3. Girls who are menstruating attend the service, but don't take part in physical prayer (i.e. sit them out).

I understand that some girls can choose to sit out P.E. if they are having periods. Aren't these girls (in PE classes) as 'stigmatised' 'isolated' 'humiliated' as the Muslim girls sitting out the formal prayers?

They just happen to be sitting at the back during the formal prayers, because otherwise they would be in the middle of people praying. During the sermon, they are sitting within the congregation.

Therefore they are just like girls who are sitting out when a netball match is going on (for example). If not, how are they different?

Storm in a teacup. Again?



Cheers,
Shafique

You are wrong Al Shafique, a public school is NOT a place to practise any faith, in our world there is separation of State and Church.
Ballet dancing, singing or sport is normal, not prayers.
I am sure after this article it will be sorted out quiclky and these people will have to find another place for their cult.

@Kanelli

During menstruation, men should keep away from women; they are filthy. The Koran says:

“It (menstruation) is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.” (Sura 2, verse 222).

Women, according to Islamists and the Koran, are, in general, unclean creature. After a Muslim has washed and prepared himself for prayer, he should not touch a woman. She tarnishes his cleanliness. Therefore, “pious” Muslims never shake hands with women.

“O you who believe! do not go near prayer until you have washed yourselves; and if you have touched women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.” (Sura 4, verse 43).

For someone like me who knows there is no god, these religions and especially the muhammedans these practices are non sense, a mass delusion and di$gu$ting to women

herve - you seem upset by people praying. Why is that?

It is interesting that once an Islamophobic argument has been exposed as unusually weak, the response is a hysterical rant. I wonder why that is?

The article was actually about girls sitting at the back during the formal prayers (and not the loon spin eh tried to put on it). How is that different from girls sitting out gym class? Aren't they just as 'isolated' etc? Should girls be forced to do gym when they are having periods??

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:herve - you seem upset by people praying. Why is that?

It is interesting that once an Islamophobic argument has been exposed as unusually weak, the response is a hysterical rant. I wonder why that is?

The article was actually about girls sitting at the back during the formal prayers (and not the loon spin eh tried to put on it). How is that different from girls sitting out gym class? Aren't they just as 'isolated' etc? Should girls be forced to do gym when they are having periods??

Cheers,
Shafique

The article starts with this not with the girls menstruations, your argument is not relevant:

Isn’t it odd how stories about Muslim school prayers now being conducted at Valley Park Middle School in Don Mills are all about religion making its way into public schools?
for which I repsond : These people prostrating on the floor SHOULD NOT be doing it in a public school, simple....I just cannot beleive canadians let it happen, they will be kicked out soon anyways now it made it to the web.
A school is not a place for mass delusion, it is not the place.
For you , anyone defending a right that happens to be against a mooslim is called an islamophobe, it is not islamophobic to say that a public school is not a place of worship. But only mooslims dare to mpose themselves everywhere, you dont see monks, buddist, trapist, vishnus, doing it , only muzzies, and then when they get slapped they call it racism.

herve, you really should learn to read English more carefully - re-read the first paragraph again, in full:

Isn’t it odd how stories about Muslim school prayers now being conducted at Valley Park Middle School in Don Mills are all about religion making its way into public schools? I don’t discuss religion, ever. Feminism is my credo, and my eye was instantly drawn to the fact that girls are placed in the back, behind the boys, separated by benches used as shields.

She makes the point that her article is NOT about religion making it's way into public schools (making the point that OTHERS are making this the issue).



But my question remains - her central argument is flawed - girls sitting out a formal prayer are no more (or less) remarkable that girls sitting out gym practice.

Cheers,
Shafique

What world does Shafique live in where girls sit out of PE lessons during their periods?
Strangely enough girls and women can function quite normally during their periods, it is not an illness.

Thank God most of us have moved into the 21st centuary.

^BM - so you'd not allow girls to sit out PE lessons if they have their period?

Perhaps the schools my eldest daughter attended in the UK, Dubai and here in Mauritius are unusually lenient??

Do you think they are singling out 'shy girls' and should insist they should all take part in PE??

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum wrote:What world does Shafique live in where girls sit out of PE lessons during their periods?
Strangely enough girls and women can function quite normally during their periods, it is not an illness.

Thank God most of us have moved into the 21st centuary.

Not mooslims BM, they are still in the 7th century.
According to the qur'an women are dirty:
Women, according to Islamists and the Koran, are, in general, unclean creature. After a Muslim has washed and prepared himself for prayer, he should not touch a woman. She tarnishes his cleanliness. Therefore, “pious” Muslims never shake hands with women.

“O you who believe! do not go near prayer until you have washed yourselves; and if you have touched women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.” (Sura 4, verse 43).

@ al shafique:
This is why mooslims are dangerous, like al shafique they think it is normal to perform their cult in a public school. You let them , and 10 years later it s sharia and you dont know how you got there.
ntw Are you in favor for the establishment of sharia ?

1. School hall is used for Friday prayers. (How is this different from it being used for Ballet, or Choir practice?)

It's a public school, obviously. You have no understanding of a separation between religion and state. I don't know Canadian law, but public schools in the US cannot be turned into a house of worship.

2. Girls are behind boys (again normal)

In a Mosque or in a middle school?

3. Girls who are menstruating attend the service, but don't take part in physical prayer (i.e. sit them out).

Yes indeed. Women are ritualistically unclean in Islam. Unfortunately, the public school is tacitly promoting this view point - which should be totally illegal, at least it would be in the US.

I understand that some girls can choose to sit out P.E. if they are having periods. Aren't these girls (in PE classes) as 'stigmatised' 'isolated' 'humiliated' as the Muslim girls sitting out the formal prayers?

Your own word, some girls can choose to sit out in PE. Are girls required to sit out? And since when is PE remotely equivalent to prayer?

herve wrote:You are wrong Al Shafique, a public school is NOT a place to practise any faith, in our world there is separation of State and Church.

There is no separation between religion and state in Islam. One must get a pretty good feel for what it was like to live five centuries ago by talking to Muslims today.

Wanna know abt women in the Qran?, menstruations and so forth



-- Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:55 am --

shafique wrote:The article was actually about girls sitting at the back during the formal prayers (and not the loon spin eh tried to put on it). How is that different from girls sitting out gym class? Aren't they just as 'isolated' etc? Should girls be forced to do gym when they are having periods??

Cheers,
Shafique

eat that shaf, it s not abt periods

In the US every day in public schools classes the day started with the class saying the Pledge of Alligence to our flag. This pledge included "one nation under God". Some religious and non-religious groups made using "God" an issue and wanted the pledge to stop, so to compromise, those children who took "offense" to it were allowed to pass on taking the pledge. Then there was the argument that if you are an American citizen what is wrong in pledging your loyalty to your country, so "God" was removed from the pledge. Some argued it was "religious" and due to the fact that there is separation between religion and state, "God" was removed. So for a hand few of religious and non-religious people who couldn't find a greater cause to fight, had the pledge edited.

I'm surprised that Canada would bend to such an extreme. This is bringing religious practice into a public - government - school.

I'm curious what 'loon spin' I put on the story. Perhaps shafique has reading problems when I said the article I linked to only talks about the photograph in the OP and I had to provide the background to the story based on what I read from articles over the past few days.

We'll see if others refute the ludicrous comparison between gym class and worship meetings where girls are segregated by design - and menstruating girls excluded altogether. For starters, Islam excludes menstruating girls because they are ritually impure, there is no other reason given in Muslim texts I'm aware of. There is no exception and exclusion is not voluntary. Bringing up comparisons to gym class are completely disingenuous for these reasons, especially when we're supposed to believe prayer is as intense as track or basketball.

I disagree with what kanelli said, the objection is that a public school is being used to promote a religion. The other aspects, such as non-Muslim and female segregation only make this story that much more outrageous. But no public school should be used as a house of worship. Government affords individuals the freedom to do that on their own time.

shafique wrote:^BM - so you'd not allow girls to sit out PE lessons if they have their period?

Perhaps the schools my eldest daughter attended in the UK, Dubai and here in Mauritius are unusually lenient??

Do you think they are singling out 'shy girls' and should insist they should all take part in PE??

Cheers,
Shafique

No I don't think girls should sit out during PE lessons, Shafique. Why should they? I'm not a believer in people wimping out at the least bit thing.
I don't believe Beth's school allows that sort of thing, indeed, she has never indicated that she doesn't do PE at certain times of the month. She certainly brings her PE kit home every week, used.
What has shy got to do with having a period? You don't go round with it stamped on your forehead, do you?
Tell your daughter to get a grip. She will face bigger hurdles in life than doing rounders when she's got the painters in.

shafique wrote:2. Girls are behind boys (again normal)

I have only been to Canada twice, but didn't get the impression this is normal in Canada. At least not in the public area.

Flying Dutchman wrote:I have only been to Canada twice, but didn't get the impression this is normal in Canada. At least not in the public area.

I was in Canada a couple of weeks ago FD, everyone seemed equal to me.

So, is a Public School being turned into a 'ballet school' if they hold ballet classes once a week?

Amazing how much hatred is being spewed over the news that some Muslim children are listening to a Friday sermon and praying in a school hall once a week (including the girls who are having periods).

It's not as if they are forcing everyone at the school to attend - but rather, like ballet, offering a service that those who wish to attend can attend (as far as I can see).

Mountains and molehills.

Cheers,
Shafique

* waiting patiently for the first nutcracker ballet show in my local mosque *

shafique wrote:Mountains and Molehills.

Let's see what the fuss is about.

1. School hall is used for Friday prayers. (How is this different from it being used for Ballet, or Choir practice?)
2. Girls are behind boys (again normal)
3. Girls who are menstruating attend the service, but don't take part in physical prayer (i.e. sit them out).

I understand that some girls can choose to sit out P.E. if they are having periods. Aren't these girls (in PE classes) as 'stigmatised' 'isolated' 'humiliated' as the Muslim girls sitting out the formal prayers?

They just happen to be sitting at the back during the formal prayers, because otherwise they would be in the middle of people praying. During the sermon, they are sitting within the congregation.

Therefore they are just like girls who are sitting out when a netball match is going on (for example). If not, how are they different?

Storm in a teacup. Again?



Cheers,
Shafique

Sports and choir practice is not the same thing as holding religious masses - those are held in religious places like churches, temples, mosques and synagogues. People of other religions use their places of worship or pray at home so why are Muslims using the school gym and why are non-Muslims excluded?

As for the girls being behind the boys and being excluded because they are "dirty" due to menstruation, that happens in mosques as well, but that doesn't make it any more palatable for any feminist who looks at those practices.

Girls may choose to sit out of gym or any class if they are suffering from menstrual pain. If a girl feels fine, she participates because menstruation is not a handicap. Girls are not told that they must sit out of gym class if they are menstruating, that's the difference.

Muslim girls are stigmatized, because they are obligated to attend prayer and by sitting in the back row and not participating they are informing everyone that they are menstruating, which is none of anyone's business.

I agree that Ballet is not the same as a Friday sermon and collective prayer - but in the respect that both are held for those who wish to attend, I do think they are the same in this respect.

Did the original article say that non-Muslims were excluded? I don't see anything wrong with non-Muslims being able to attend and watch the proceedings - if they are excluded, then I'd say this is a valid complaint if there isn't a good reason for it.

As for the girls sitting out during the collective prayer (which takes place after the sermon) - I'd like to see some evidence that they are more stigmatised by this than if they were sitting in the classroom not doing gym (for example). They could also just leave as the prayers start- but I guess it is normal for them to wait for the short prayers to finish and leave with their classmates?

Now - whether school should allow religious freedom in allowing children to pray on Fridays or completely ban any religious activity during school time is another matter. To give Muslims this facility is a positive sign in my eyes - but I understand the opposing argument that others hold. On this, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I agree that Ballet is not the same as a Friday sermon and collective prayer - but in the respect that both are held for those who wish to attend, I do think they are the same in this respect.
Cheers,
Shafique

You agree they are not the same, but you think they are the same.....

the clue was in the words 'in this respect'

(You see, I'm helping herve out with his English comprehension)

shafique wrote: Now - whether school should allow religious freedom in allowing children to pray on Fridays or completely ban any religious activity during school time is another matter. To give Muslims this facility is a positive sign in my eyes - but I understand the opposing argument that others hold. On this, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Cheers,
Shafique

so it is ok to influence secular institutions , how about the legal system, Sharia law is ok too?

shafique wrote::D the clue was in the words 'in this respect'

(You see, I'm helping herve out with his English comprehension)

If you were as clever as you think you are you would be writing in French. Then we'd see who's comprehension needed work.

I suppose shafique needs to characterize objections to turning schools into houses of worship as hatred against Muslims since he's unable to understand or defend the secular character of Western school systems, see this ACLU article attacking attempts to hold moments of silence ('stealth prayer') in schools from 2002 and calling the proponents of school prayer the 'radical religious right':

At worst, it is organized prayer by stealth, as recognized by the Supreme Court in its decision in Wallace v. Jaffree (1985) in which the Court struck down Alabama's moment of silence law.

...appeals to no one but the radical religious right. Should it actually pass, a constitutional amendment on school prayer would mark the first time in our nation's history that the original Bill of Rights would be amended -- a striking departure from traditional American values that would set a dangerous precedent.

If the ACLU and like minded people were consistent, they would at least refer to Muslims who want prayer in school as radicals as well. But then again, I guess they wouldn't want to be called 'Islamophobes' from people who can't defend the practice of holding worship services in publicly funded schools.

http://www.aclu.org/religion-belief/con ... ool-prayer

I also didn't see a convincing response between girls voluntarily sitting out during PE to girls being forced to not take part during prayer. Obviously, not only is this a matter of compulsion (menstruating girls have to be excluded from prayer - making the comparison absurd) that is seen as outright s.e.xism taking place in public schools but the two situations are not similar, prayer is no different from normal classroom activity, hardly comparable to gym. Hence, the actual reasons in Islam for this are seen as s.e.xist (women are impure) and something that should not be happening at public schools.

So, what we have is a public school that separates girls from boys and excludes some girls because they are considered ritualistically unclean - all at the tax payer's expense. Shafique's main argument in objecting to any criticism is name calling and accusations that others just hate Muslims, along with a few strawmen comparing prayer to gym class and the voluntary to the required.

As for non-Muslims being barred and creating a zone of segregation in the school, the articles do indeed say this happens:

Religion and Ontario’s supposedly secular public school system have become uncomfortable bedfellows. While one provincial law tells schools to accommodate students’ religious practices, other laws and the courts have long prodded this school system to become a faith-free zone that, in particular, excludes Lord’s Prayer recitations and Bible readings. As a result, confusion reigns and anguished cries of inequality are increasingly being heard.

Consider that a Toronto school proudly turns its cafeteria into a mosque every Friday afternoon and welcomes a local imam to lead several hundred Muslim students in prayer — while all the other students are barred from the area.

http://www.therecord.com/opinion/editor ... ic-schools

shafique wrote:I'd like to see some evidence that they are more stigmatised by this than if they were sitting in the classroom not doing gym (for example). They could also just leave as the prayers start- but I guess it is normal for them to wait for the short prayers to finish and leave with their classmates?

I'm sorry, would you request to see similar evidence that girls are stigmatized if they were required to leave the classroom as soon as their teacher starts math class as well?

EH, one of the few times I agree with you.

Shaf, your analogy is just so stupid. You can't see the difference between religion from education??? PE is generally required in schools for health reasons. I have never known a public school that had ballet as a course, either elective or required. There is a difference between a church choir and a school choir. If I were you I would stop arguing your points as it is only going to make you look seriously foolish.

If it is so important for these Muslim children pray during school hours, then the wise thing would be to put them in an Islamic school where they can make rules that suit the student body, no different from Hebrew or Catholic schools, which requires tuition. These Muslim students, who are probably the minority in the school, are getting a free education at the taxpayers expense. I can't help but wonder if this practice was put before the Parents Committee or the District School Board ffor approval, or if the principal of the school took it upon him/herself to implement it. If I had a child in that school, I would be pulling her out. School is for education not a place for religion, especially when you have children of different religious beliefs. What's next: two cafeterias, one for Muslims serving halal food and one for everyone else? Make Islam a required course in public schools? Make Arabic a required language??

In the US Catholic children attending public elementary school would leave school Wednesdsay afternoons to attend religious instructions in a Catholic school. Those instructions are not conducted in public schools - separation of church and state. If Catholic children can be released to attend religious instruction, then let the Muslim children leave the school early on Friday and go to the mosque.

What you don't get Shaf is it is this kind of bending to Muslim demands that creates resentment towards Muslims. Pushing Islam down peoples throats and catering to Muslims creates for bad feelings. But I guess in your book, bringing prayer, in this case Islam, into public schools is an achievement.

As for girls and their periods, it's a natural female bodily function. Putting girls to the side because they can't pray is putting the spotlight on them and basically announcing they have their periods.

I have sisters-in-law who don't go to the mosque for the prayers, they pray 5 times a day at home. I don't know if they ever saw the inside of a mosque because in reality a mosque is a mans world. Watch the Arabic channels on Friday Shaf and see just how many women are in the mosque - or are they so far in the back in a room that they can't be seen??

If you ignore the issue of a public school being used to promote religion there's the aspect of these religious services which definitely violate school policy - namely, putting (segregating) female students behind the males and excluding menstruating girls altogether. This definitely is against school codes in Toronto based on my reading and would be equally absurd and cause just as much an uproar if these practices were used in math class instead.

Once again, we unfortunately see backwards policy being allowed because it's done in the name of religion due to pressure from right-wing religious radicals.

Bora Bora wrote:

These Muslim students, who are probably the minority in the school, are getting a free education at the taxpayers expense.

just a question here,

Muslims in Canada don't pay taxes? can somebody tell me?