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freedom of speech may differ to me and you according to how and where we are raised, we limit free speech to atleast try our best to let the high ranking people to know what wrong things that do take place in the country that we also are some how sure that our voices have reached them, they are not super people who know every single thing that takes place in the country, we talk about the problems without having to point fingers at certain people, and according to how big the problem is the action will be taken other wise no one would be complaining about anything if they knew nothing would change, it may take time, coz dont forget that we live in a very busy world with lots and lots of problems accumulating as time goes and as more, our people do listen to us, it is how you make your voice reach them with the right tone, not by attacking them, like you and i would agree again its how me and you are culturally different.
as to why am i certain about these 3 guys stirring up trouble, well simple, i like many others, put together the patterns of their speeches, behavior and approach to their so called "cause", and got to find it identical to what happened in bahrain and what iran uses to verbally attack and provoke it's so called enemies, and to find out that they were actually accused of such link puts no surprise on me. again, this is one of the cases shall i say that the majority of expats wouldnt understand unless they have lived the actual with them.

as for the detained journalists, i cant help you with that simply because i personally don't know anything about it, i just heard it now.

-- Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:50 pm --

Bora Bora wrote:

if they werent "paid" then how come more and more kept comming? besides isn't it the construction's company's role to do that? doesnt the government put laws for that? a high percentage of construction company owners tend to take off once they grab the money of building a project, and you all know that, also dont forget that the UAE is a young country, so day by day or year by year new laws are being enforced, to best fit the workers in harsh conditions.

I am not talking about laborers General, I'm talking about ALL expats. Initially expats they were brought in for their knowledge to lay the groundwork for the development of Dubai as it is today. There is nothing wrong with paying an expert for their knowledge and experience and that was necessary as it was not available locally. You know as well as I that locals don't want to work for private enterprise - it's all about working for the government. And because there aren't enough government jobs, which I understand more are going to be created, they don't want, or better yet, have to, work for private enterprise.

Now private enterprise is, once again, being "forced" to hire locals; to maintain a certain percentage of locals in their employ. Now, I ask you: if you own a company and were "forced" to hire people who have no experience/inadequate education,/limited communication skills/no work ethics and demand high salaries how would that sit with you? Companies are going to pull out if they are going to be forced to take on unqualified people. These people become liabilities, which means loss of revenue and companies are out to make money not lose it. These people have a huge negative impact on staff and business itself. It's one thing to lose money due to poor economy, bad business, but to lose it to people that they were made to hire is another story indeed.

and hear this, my grandfather slaughterd cattle for a living after before he worked on a farm and then worked as a store keeper, my friend's father used to be a taxi driver and a construction worker (kooly), my other friend's uncle was a worker for an american oil company in abu dhabi and then as a fisherman, even i used to work in sales and worked as an aircraft fueling operator, so get the idea of locals not being able to do that kind of work, we are men after all. they worked hard before the emirates were united.

I know quite a few locals who have come from very humble backgrounds. And when they talk of their parents their eyes shine and they are so proud of their heritage. The government didn't send them outside to get a higher education, their parents did. Those parents who came from humble backgrounds and provided their children with the education that those children so desired. All to return to Dubai and give back to their country.

most of you dont know how many of our people gave thier lifes fighting for dubai in the days were no one heard of the place, that you didnt know i bet.

I can't speak for others, but I read. I find the history of the region very interesting. It is no different form what any other country went through prior to its development. Dubai is not unique in that regard.

and just because someone is a good buisnessman, it doesnt mean that he or they are more intelligent than other people, they are intelligent in what they know best which is how to do good buisness, someone else will be more intelligent in another line of work or career.

You can have an individual who has no higher education, or maybe limited education, doesn't mean they can't create a business. It is about getting the right people to build it with/for you. Make a vision become a reality. That is exactly what happened with Dubai. It was a vision that became a reality through the application of other peoples knowledge and experience.

so why would i do a much more physical job now with minimum pay when i can do better? right? i and others like me just happen to be so fortunate. correct?

Fortunate in what way? (1) You come from a family that is financially comfortable therefore you don't have to work? Or (2) you worked your way up in a company and proven yourself? If it's (2), that's the way it generally works.

i also never deny the fact the the UAE will still rely on foriegn labor, just like many many other countries.

You must be referring to developing countries. I can't think of any western country that rely on foreign labor.

if there were more female graduates than males then thats just because that statistics has shown that there are more females than males ALL AROUND THE WORLD and not just the UAE, i guess why there are more EXPAT gradutes overall? because in a country of a population of over 5 million, we are only about 800,000. to make it more simple, there are way more expats here than us, and the numbers keep rising, and the local guys that you protrait as being unambitious, have you sat with some of them to actualy know what was going on with thier lifes? or is it just an assumption? i will take that as a stereotypical assumption, i happen to know guys who look and act just the same, but are doctors, lawyers, law inforcing officers and take thier jobs very seriously. if some happen to take thier valuable time for granted, then thats thier problem, isnt it, nothing youn nor i should worry about, reality will slap them in the face and will might just reilize it a bit too late or just in time, right?

Your explanation for female vs. male graduates is, with all due respect, rubbish. Most expats children go back "home" for higher education, which is by far more superior than they would get here, and probably cheaper as well. They obtain degrees from internationally recognized universities. For example: a degree from Cornell University goes alot farther in the world than a degree from the University of Sharjah. I'm sure those doctors, lawyers, etc. that you know have strived for higher education and more likely outside of the UAE.

if life was bad here, how come there are millions and millions of expats work and live here? everyone can go back if they wanted to, but would they?

I'm so tired of hearing that "go back home" talk. If half the expats left, Dubai would crash faster than a New York minute.
-- Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:15 pm --

patience wrote:Here here Bora

General I mean no disrespect to you or your country but I do feel that people should be able to speak out if they are not happy with the way things run. Maybe it is because I was brought up in the West that I feel this way, maybe if I was an Emirati I would feel differently, but there are obviously Emiratis who feel the same and feel the need to speak out. Surely talking about things should not be a crime. Pointing out flaws should not be a crime, asking for change should not be a crime. After all it is only by standing up for what you believe in that brings about change and clearly these people feel that change is needed. The saying is that you cannot please all the people all the time and maybe the government are doing a great job of pleasing most of the people most of the time but unless the fear of speaking out is taken away we will never really know the truth. If as you say the majority of Emirati's are satisfied that things are running fine there should be nothing to fear from a small minority asking for change. But maybe, just maybe if you did have a situation where people were allowed to choose you would find that people would welcome change. The trouble is under a dictatorship you do not get the chance to choose and as long as people are scared of the consequences you never will. As for the treatment of certain sectors of the expat community, well the conditions that some of them live in are appalling and the argument that they live in worse conditions back home maybe true but these people are leaving their countries for a better life, to try and improve their situations after all nobody would want to live in these conditions and as a fellow human being I fail to see how making such an argument allows those in power to sleep at night.

like you said, the majorty of people here are more than happy with how things are going, it was only these 3 guys who are demanding changes, with out the right of representing the whole country, and if you want to express how unhappy you are about how many things are going do so without having to insult the royal family and call them names.

Well said Patience.

listen, if you are forced to hire a local, then of course you would hire him according to how qualified he is and what kind of job he can actually do, not just because you were forced to, nobody does that, i worked for private company once, and to say that companies might pull out just because they were forced to hire locals, common man, you can do better than that.

like i also said, if someone decides to neglect his life for the sake of roaming around, then thats his problem, not mine not yours not anybody's.
and yes i know that the standards of higher education abroad is higher than in sharjah university, thats why many locals go to study abroad, probably one of the reasons there are more female graduates in sharjah university.

said it before and im gonna say it again and im gonna say a million times more, if somebody doesnt like how things are going here for him/her, first im gonna appolgize for not being able to accommodate or provide to your personal standards, heres a ticket home (with a big smile)
coz like you, i've gotten tired of people criticizing my country that has provided millions of jobs for people who think they come from heaven or something like it.


im out

Oooo now that's a defeatist attitude if ever I saw one! Criticism, if it's constructive is always a good thing, people can't profess to know everything, there is always someone with more knowledge and experience than us. It's how you use that criticism that makes you.

Also just giving someone a plane ticket is not the answer and to be honest, people are sick and tired of hearing that, it's actually a pretty childish mentality.

Also the job market has died a death! There are people here who have been out of work for years and they are trapped and can't leave, as much as they would like to.

I think there is no sense to argue on this topic as I think it must be a win win situation for both (locals and expats) as that can be the only reason system has been running fine ever since.
Problems are everywhere and I must say that there are enormous potential in all sectors for international companies to invest and do business in the UAE (GCC as a region).
I am really enjoying my stay here and I am thankful to both locals and expats for making Dubai what it is today.

Cheers

freedom of speech may differ to me and you according to how and where we are raised, we limit free speech to atleast try our best to let the high ranking people to know what wrong things that do take place in the country that we also are some how sure that our voices have reached them, they are not super people who know every single thing that takes place in the country, we talk about the problems without having to point fingers at certain people, and according to how big the problem is the action will be taken other wise no one would be complaining about anything if they knew nothing would change, it may take time, coz dont forget that we live in a very busy world with lots and lots of problems accumulating as time goes and as more, our people do listen to us, it is how you make your voice reach them with the right tone, not by attacking them, like you and i would agree again its how me and you are culturally different.

as to why am i certain about these 3 guys stirring up trouble, well simple, i like many others, put together the patterns of their speeches, behavior and approach to their so called "cause", and got to find it identical to what happened in bahrain and what iran uses to verbally attack and provoke it's so called enemies, and to find out that they were actually accused of such link puts no surprise on me. again, this is one of the cases shall i say that the majority of expats wouldnt understand unless they have lived the actual with them.

By your own admission your freedom of speech is limited. I understand that the UAE does have it's politics, by it's own design and that involves a limited number of people who make decisions for the entire country. This is no different from US politics. BUT, the difference is, we can voice our support or objection to the decisions that our own President makes without the fear of repercussion. And enough people raise their voice in the US change does come about. One person can make a difference and cause a new to be enacted. For example: The Amber Alert.

as for the detained journalists, i cant help you with that simply because i personally don't know anything about it, i just heard it now.

listen, if you are forced to hire a local, then of course you would hire him according to how qualified he is and what kind of job he can actually do, not just because you were forced to, nobody does that, i worked for private company once, and to say that companies might pull out just because they were forced to hire locals, common man, you can do better than that.

You don't get it. There are very few "qualified" locals to hire. Private companies have been mandated to hire locals - they don't have a choice. I'm not saying all companies, but some might consider that the loss can't be justified. Private enterprise isn't in business to function as a charity to support employees, they are in business to do business.

like i also said, if someone decides to neglect his life for the sake of roaming around, then thats his problem, not mine not yours not anybody's.

I'm trying to figure out what this means.

and yes i know that the standards of higher education abroad is higher than in sharjah university, thats why many locals go to study abroad, probably one of the reasons there are more female graduates in sharjah university.

Another reason for the ratio of female to male? Realistically these women will never travel abroad to work so a degree from the University of Sharjah can be useful to them here in Dubai. And it would be just as useful to the male graduates because more than likely they will never leave Dubai to work abroad.

I think you overestimate the number of local males who study abroad.

said it before and im gonna say it again and im gonna say a million times more, if somebody doesnt like how things are going here for him/her, first im gonna appolgize for not being able to accommodate or provide to your personal standards, heres a ticket home (with a big smile)
coz like you, i've gotten tired of people criticizing my country that has provided millions of jobs for people who think they come from heaven or something like it.

im out

Why do you see discussion as citicism?

Did it ever occur to you that expats are tired of some locals being ungrateful for what they have helped Dubai to achieve and accomplish. Expats are tired of hearing some locals talk and act as if they are actually responsible for the development and growth of Dubai. What locals brought to the table was money. What expats brought to the table was experience and knowledge. Fair exchange I would say, not to mention fact. Keep one thing in mind, it was your government that had the vision and sought people, who happened to be expats, to make that vision a reality. I would say, great vision and the reality proves that.

As for the uphevel that is taking place in the region, you should be interested in it more than expats and it has the greatest affect on the citizens. The rulers of Dubai and the other emirates have always taken very good care of their own, so I can understand why people like you and the Kid would be upset. All that has been done for the citizens created a strong loyalty to those in power. Maybe if the countries that are going through the current situation took care of their own people, what is happening would never be happening to begin with. I believe if the US took care of its own citizens, it would be a better country. I also think if the US addressed the problems with illegals in the US, that would be a good thing also.

Whatever the outcome good or bad, expats are free to leave, the people of that particular country experiencing the unhevel can't. Although I'm in Dubai, I still have more interest in my government back in the States than I am in the way government runs in Dubai.

I live by the law of Dubai, and as long as a person does that, life is good. Dubai has been good for us, but my husband also worked twice as hard to prove himself by virtue of the fact that he is an Arab in an industry that is controlled by white folk. How many locals do you know that put in anywhere from 12 to 16 hours a day?? Expats put in a minimum of 9 hours a day.

I would like to raise my opinion, but I'm currently using iPhone :s it's hard to type!

OK Sym. We can wait!!!!

Nicely thought out reply Bora and I pretty much agree with all of that.

Hi bora,
Will I would say the need of expats is due to the development of the country. 6 million expats means 6 million jobs compared to 1 million locals ! who is going to fill those jobs but expats .Americans don’t do gardening , they are leaving it to Mexicans.
So its mostly a matter of numbers more than expats expertise which you are overestimating here! Most of the jobs here are not rocket science, then comes the pay which we simply see not enough for our living standers … but in terms of being qualified I think you are wrong. Both expats and locals are graduates, but expats work harder bcz of the completion they get from other expats not bcz they are too qualified ..
They are here bcz they couldn’t find a job elsewhere. if they are qualified they would’ve stayed back home where they would’ve been paid why more than here especially ppl from the west.
I’m an employs in AD government and I assure you that and only when the city started localizing jobs we started seeing quality standard out puts , and achieved more with locals than expats.
And I have to disagree with you regarding our women and there education aboard, they are as free as anyone, they as independent as anyone else but like any other place , why would I study aboard when I have schools here ? why go throw all the trouble ? but there those who chose to do so and I mean by those 2000 females only from one source of governments scholarship that are studying outside and I frankly can’t see any different in schools on the west than here, many western schools are not within UAE standers and are not credited or accepted here.
But I have to agree with you that private businesses will always be in favor of expats only for the fact that they need to make profits only. its a simple fact. And yes we will always needs expats for the jobs that we choose not to do.
In general I cant see anything wrong with the system here, everyone is happy with what they got, the world is owned by humans not by nationalities , we are getting along just fine here with less discriminations issues that other places, everyone is getting what they want and life goes on. we need you , you need us. Just like the relation of you needing a plumber a mechanic a driver a doctor , me and you can’t simply do it all, not here not anywhere else.

-- Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:07 am --

regarding your freedom of speech and raising your voice to your needs is another thing that I have to question for the fact that you keep changing your government for the last one not doing any good... if you had the power to "change" things, then you and your citizens shouldn't had a nearly perfect life where as you can see you are not even near.

uaekid wrote:Hi bora,
Will I would say the need of expats is due to the development of the country. 6 million expats means 6 million jobs compared to 1 million locals ! who is going to fill those jobs but expats .Americans don’t do gardening , they are leaving it to Mexicans.
So its mostly a matter of numbers more than expats expertise which you are overestimating here! Most of the jobs here are not rocket science, then comes the pay which we simply see not enough for our living standers … but in terms of being qualified I think you are wrong. Both expats and locals are graduates, but expats work harder bcz of the completion they get from other expats not bcz they are too qualified ..
They are here bcz they couldn’t find a job elsewhere. if they are qualified they would’ve stayed back home where they would’ve been paid why more than here especially ppl from the west.
I’m an employs in AD government and I assure you that and only when the city started localizing jobs we started seeing quality standard out puts , and achieved more with locals than expats.
And I have to disagree with you regarding our women and there education aboard, they are as free as anyone, they as independent as anyone else but like any other place , why would I study aboard when I have schools here ? why go throw all the trouble ? but there those who chose to do so and I mean by those 2000 females only from one source of governments scholarship that are studying outside and I frankly can’t see any different in schools on the west than here, many western schools are not within UAE standers and are not credited or accepted here.
But I have to agree with you that private businesses will always be in favor of expats only for the fact that they need to make profits only. its a simple fact. And yes we will always needs expats for the jobs that we choose not to do.
In general I cant see anything wrong with the system here, everyone is happy with what they got, the world is owned by humans not by nationalities , we are getting along just fine here with less discriminations issues that other places, everyone is getting what they want and life goes on. we need you , you need us. Just like the relation of you needing a plumber a mechanic a driver a doctor , me and you can’t simply do it all, not here not anywhere else.

And that's the stereo-typical Emirati attitude right there!

Kid, many locals go and study abroad because the standard of education is or was considered better elsewhere. You can definitely tell those who have been educated abroad, travelled and experienced other places, because they have a totally different attitude.

And no many expats did not come here because they couldn't get work elsewhere. My father for example was headhunted by Emirates because he is one of only a handful people in the world qualified and with the relevant experience to do a certain job! He's now retired and yet they still beg him to come back.

Nope, sorry Emirati girls certainly aren't 'free' to go and do what they want. My mother used to work at DWC so she has first-hand experience of what they are and are not allowed to do by their families.

Sorry but there were some areas where you just wouldn't find any local qualified or with the necessary experience to do the job, as Bora says hence the requirement for overseas expertise.

At the end of the day, there is no shame (although you seem to think otherwise) in employing people whoa re better at the job and who can get it done, it makes good business and economic sense. But at least give credit, where credit is due.

Hahaha and please don't make us laugh about government run companies, as they are the most difficult and inefficient places to deal with, everyone knows it and always complains about it!

uaekid wrote:Hi bora,

They are here bcz they couldn’t find a job elsewhere. if they are qualified they would’ve stayed back home where they would’ve been paid why more than here especially ppl from the west.

I’m an employs in AD government and I assure you that and only when the city started localizing jobs we started seeing quality standard out puts , and achieved more with locals than expats.

Point 1 is correct but only for some. Almost all westerners get paid more here than in their countries and that why they are here.

Are you seriously saying that quality output can come after localization??

There are plenty of smart Emiratis , but there are plenty of smart expats as well.

And yes, maybe the under performing expats you refer to were the mafia-nepotism minded people who were relying on brown nosing and their dubious "doktor" (pronounced with a light d) title from 1975. Yes, anyone would be an improvement over those types of workers, so its not that you improved because of replacing expats with Emiratis but because of replacing crooked workers with proper workers.

Hi Kid, hope all is well with you.

Clearly we differ in opinions as to why expats are here. First, I'm going to address expats on the higher middle management and upper management levels. Many expats at those levels left jobs to come to Dubai. Money is a very good motive for many things. The majority of expats that came or are here in Dubai are labor intense expats as well as working in the service industry, who in those cases, couldn't find work in their home country. Dubai is/was a blessing for them.

As for population, although the numbers 8 million vs. 1 million, you have take into consideration what the population from each are for children and women. Of the 8 million expats, those at upper middle and higher level positions are the minority. From 8 million also factor in how many are children and women.
The majority of the 8 million are labor intense and from the service industry.

If you look at the local population (1 million), I would say 40% are minors, leaving the 60% to be divided amongst adult males and females. Of that 60% how many obtained higher education? Let's say 40% for the sake of argument, the majority of that 40% is probably female. some of who probably never entered the work force. As you know, there is a large number of unemployed male locals. Why is that? We have read numerous times how locals only want to work for government. How is that when you go to a government office you find Indians working side by side with locals? I'm sure if the unemployed REALLY wanted to work, you would see fewer Indians in government and semi-government companies. Even if every local worked, bottom line is that Dubai will always be reliant on expats - at all levels.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I recently learned that if a local who works for a company, say 10 years, and takes up another position in government or semi-government (possibly locally owned companies as well?) for say, 20,000 AED over the salary he was making, the company has to pay that difference in his pension plan, which would mean 10 years multiply by 20,000AED. So it would cost the company 200,000AED to employ that local. Not exactly an incentive even by local standards to hire a local.

Second issue: education. The majority of universities and colleges in the US are accredited. There are many that are universally recognized, unlike those established here in Dubai, University of Sharjah. Even universities established in Dubai that are extensions of well known universities in the US might not get the recognition as those in the States. For example: a holder of a degree of Reutgers University in the States would be given first consideration, say in the UK, over someone who held a degree from a extension of the same university that was established in Dubai. I'm sure that a local who attended a US university would be given first consideration over someone who graduated from a local university. The government even established a School for Nursing, which I didn't know about until recently when I read that it was being shut down because it didn't meet standards. I hope I never experience the assistance of anyone who "graduated" prior to shutting down. This was a great opportunity for local girls to obtain a profession, but apparently it failed miserably.

Third issue: employment. I'm all for locals being employed. I think they have all been cheated as so many things that make an employee a good employee is missing, such as understanding that you start at the bottom and work your way up, have work ethics, degree, knowledge and, if applicable the experience, to be able to perform the job - which is missing because the mindset is entitlement. The government has made initiatives to get locals work, but there is a mindset that has been instilled in locals that works against them, not for them. A private company knows that if they get a local that shows up when they feel like it, does little work, leaves early, doesn't report to work - all of which has an impact on those that are working - it's really hard to discharge them from employment. Knowing the latest mobile, the latest car model, texting are not skills. Private companies will reward locals who work and put into practice work ethics as they would anyone else.

Chocoholic wrote:

uaekid wrote:Hi bora,
Will I would say the need of expats is due to the development of the country. 6 million expats means 6 million jobs compared to 1 million locals ! who is going to fill those jobs but expats .Americans don’t do gardening , they are leaving it to Mexicans.
So its mostly a matter of numbers more than expats expertise which you are overestimating here! Most of the jobs here are not rocket science, then comes the pay which we simply see not enough for our living standers … but in terms of being qualified I think you are wrong. Both expats and locals are graduates, but expats work harder bcz of the completion they get from other expats not bcz they are too qualified ..
They are here bcz they couldn’t find a job elsewhere. if they are qualified they would’ve stayed back home where they would’ve been paid why more than here especially ppl from the west.
I’m an employs in AD government and I assure you that and only when the city started localizing jobs we started seeing quality standard out puts , and achieved more with locals than expats.
And I have to disagree with you regarding our women and there education aboard, they are as free as anyone, they as independent as anyone else but like any other place , why would I study aboard when I have schools here ? why go throw all the trouble ? but there those who chose to do so and I mean by those 2000 females only from one source of governments scholarship that are studying outside and I frankly can’t see any different in schools on the west than here, many western schools are not within UAE standers and are not credited or accepted here.
But I have to agree with you that private businesses will always be in favor of expats only for the fact that they need to make profits only. its a simple fact. And yes we will always needs expats for the jobs that we choose not to do.
In general I cant see anything wrong with the system here, everyone is happy with what they got, the world is owned by humans not by nationalities , we are getting along just fine here with less discriminations issues that other places, everyone is getting what they want and life goes on. we need you , you need us. Just like the relation of you needing a plumber a mechanic a driver a doctor , me and you can’t simply do it all, not here not anywhere else.

And that's the stereo-typical Emirati attitude right there!

Kid, many locals go and study abroad because the standard of education is or was considered better elsewhere. You can definitely tell those who have been educated abroad, travelled and experienced other places, because they have a totally different attitude.

And no many expats did not come here because they couldn't get work elsewhere. My father for example was headhunted by Emirates because he is one of only a handful people in the world qualified and with the relevant experience to do a certain job! He's now retired and yet they still beg him to come back.

Nope, sorry Emirati girls certainly aren't 'free' to go and do what they want. My mother used to work at DWC so she has first-hand experience of what they are and are not allowed to do by their families.

Sorry but there were some areas where you just wouldn't find any local qualified or with the necessary experience to do the job, as Bora says hence the requirement for overseas expertise.

At the end of the day, there is no shame (although you seem to think otherwise) in employing people whoa re better at the job and who can get it done, it makes good business and economic sense. But at least give credit, where credit is due.

Hahaha and please don't make us laugh about government run companies, as they are the most difficult and inefficient places to deal with, everyone knows it and always complains about it!

yaa lets go a head and judge the hall subject based on your daddy and mommy how about you ? doing us any good ?

-- Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:03 pm --

Bora Bora wrote:Hi Kid, hope all is well with you.

Clearly we differ in opinions as to why expats are here. First, I'm going to address expats on the higher middle management and upper management levels. Many expats at those levels left jobs to come to Dubai. Money is a very good motive for many things. The majority of expats that came or are here in Dubai are labor intense expats as well as working in the service industry, who in those cases, couldn't find work in their home country. Dubai is/was a blessing for them.

As for population, although the numbers 8 million vs. 1 million, you have take into consideration what the population from each are for children and women. Of the 8 million expats, those at upper middle and higher level positions are the minority. From 8 million also factor in how many are children and women.
The majority of the 8 million are labor intense and from the service industry.

If you look at the local population (1 million), I would say 40% are minors, leaving the 60% to be divided amongst adult males and females. Of that 60% how many obtained higher education? Let's say 40% for the sake of argument, the majority of that 40% is probably female. some of who probably never entered the work force. As you know, there is a large number of unemployed male locals. Why is that? We have read numerous times how locals only want to work for government. How is that when you go to a government office you find Indians working side by side with locals? I'm sure if the unemployed REALLY wanted to work, you would see fewer Indians in government and semi-government companies. Even if every local worked, bottom line is that Dubai will always be reliant on expats - at all levels.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I recently learned that if a local who works for a company, say 10 years, and takes up another position in government or semi-government (possibly locally owned companies as well?) for say, 20,000 AED over the salary he was making, the company has to pay that difference in his pension plan, which would mean 10 years multiply by 20,000AED. So it would cost the company 200,000AED to employ that local. Not exactly an incentive even by local standards to hire a local.

Second issue: education. The majority of universities and colleges in the US are accredited. There are many that are universally recognized, unlike those established here in Dubai, University of Sharjah. Even universities established in Dubai that are extensions of well known universities in the US might not get the recognition as those in the States. For example: a holder of a degree of Reutgers University in the States would be given first consideration, say in the UK, over someone who held a degree from a extension of the same university that was established in Dubai. I'm sure that a local who attended a US university would be given first consideration over someone who graduated from a local university. The government even established a School for Nursing, which I didn't know about until recently when I read that it was being shut down because it didn't meet standards. I hope I never experience the assistance of anyone who "graduated" prior to shutting down. This was a great opportunity for local girls to obtain a profession, but apparently it failed miserably.

Third issue: employment. I'm all for locals being employed. I think they have all been cheated as so many things that make an employee a good employee is missing, such as understanding that you start at the bottom and work your way up, have work ethics, degree, knowledge and, if applicable the experience, to be able to perform the job - which is missing because the mindset is entitlement. The government has made initiatives to get locals work, but there is a mindset that has been instilled in locals that works against them, not for them. A private company knows that if they get a local that shows up when they feel like it, does little work, leaves early, doesn't report to work - all of which has an impact on those that are working - it's really hard to discharge them from employment. Knowing the latest mobile, the latest car model, texting are not skills. Private companies will reward locals who work and put into practice work ethics as they would anyone else.

I'll never disagree with you when you use words like some ,those,many
the educations part :
no its the same when getting employees in government at least ,its all up to your education qualifications no matter where you graduated from..phd, bachelor , diploma and high school diplomas are what counts, as long as it is a credited school .

employment :
big disagreement here bora ... if you base your arguments on the number of locals VS expats working in private sectors , then explain to me why thousands if not millions of expats work in the private sector in the US and UK and the locals of those countries who are "qualified " are at home unemployed ? are the locals of those countries stupid, dump,not hard working, less qualified or as you call said bcz of there " mindset " .... don't believe everything you read dear.

you got all wrong here .sorry

I'll answer your question, and in return please answer mine.

The explanation is quite easy: The number of expats working in the US and UK doesn't run into the millions and probably isn't anywhere close to a million. Government wouldn't allow it. There are different nationalities who are American citizens (not to be mistaken for expats) and then there are work visas, which are limited in the number that are issued. There are quite a few Canadians that work in the States as I think it is easy for them to cross over (the border). It is also very hard to find companies that will sponsor expats.

The US and UK, along with Dubai and the rest of the world hit a wall with the economy. Companies in the US and UK terminated millions of jobs and when there is a need to employ, they are hiring people who are overqualified educationally and experience wise, much to the employer's benefit, and can pay them less as these people accept these jobs for the sake of having work and an income. For example you may have someone who was a vice president in a company who took a job as a manager. You have managers that are taking jobs as salespeople and working fast food outlets. A job is a job. The unemployment is high in the US and UK because of population. US government terminated jobs because of the economy. Where 5 individuals did 5 individual jobs, there are now 3 people doing the work of 5.

My question to you was if there are unemployed locals, who probably feel that jobs were taken away from them because of expats, why aren't they given the jobs that are held by expats in government and semi-government? Isn't any job better than no job? That's how Americans see it, especially during these economic times. Besides, doesn't the govenment give them a stipend every month when they work. I understood this to be the case as told to me by a local.

If you notice, I don't take a brush and paint ALL locals as being the same, because that is not and never will be the case. Unfortunately you use the term expats as a whole. We aren't all bad you know.

I will also say that there are many expats that are not qualified to perform in many positions, especially at the higher level where they are out of their element, but have the right people in place to carry them. Most of these people are "bully" bosses- covering up their lack of ability to do what they were hired to do and throw people off with intimidation. There are cases where it's a matter of who you know, not what you know (expat wasta?? ) when it comes to getting jobs. Expats bring expat friends to pack companies with people who are on their "team" and those loyal to the boss are rewarded in kind with salary and nice packages. There are many locals in positions that they aren't qualified for, just as there are expats.

As for the education, you cannot compare UK and US education to the education available here in Dubai. I know of many US expats who have children who say that Dubai education is so easy compared to the States, but they want to go back to the States for higher education. I can only hope they can pass and qualify to get into the universities/colleges that they aim for.

Ok here is my input, and I'll try to make it all short.

1) Loyality

The concept of loyality, being loyal to our country as Emaratis has not been well educated by the government.
A lot of people just follow their emotions randomly, and believe in blind submission to the Sheikhdoms because they have strong faith in it. Even if there were records of unfairness and injustice, they still hold strong to their faith in the Sheikhdoms.

Loyality is not expressed by sticking the photos of the rulers everywhere at home, office, car, etc.
Thats too lame in my opinion. Loyality is not to act aggresive towards anyone who has a different opinion (or criticise) the Sheikhdoms.

I strongly believe that loyality should be to the LAND at first, and not to persons. And all national citizens should express their loyality by building a proper civilization on this land that they claim theirs. One should put big efforts in getting the necessary education, in order to utilize this knowledge at his/her career to build the great country he desire. Only then a person can claim loyality.

Everyone should be equal. No one owns everything for his title. This land belongs to all its national citizens. Every national citizen has a role in building this country. Being a sheikh doesn't make you own everything, infact the concept of a sheikh should be used now days as equivelant to any job title, such as for doctors who are responsible to treat ill people, teachers who are responsible for educating people, and sheikhs shouldn't be any different, and their job is to keep this land secure and to run this country as expected by its citizens who chose them to be in charge of it, just like successful CEOs of successful companies!

Our father Sheikh Zayed, the founder of the UAE has always been my source of inspiration to the meaning of loyality, because he believed in the concept of sharing the responsibilities of this land.

Nationals are ought to express their loyality by working with conscience towards building their country, for continuous success. They should accept all kind of jobs, and respect it. Even the job of a dustman should be respected, as that person is keeping the country clean! If I had the power, I'll hire students for part time jobs as such as dustmen for example (well paid) just to spread correct awareness of the concept of loyality.

2) Success

I feel so ashamed to say that, but I can't hide facts. I think we as Emaratis cannot claim success with respect to the current situation. Success was never measured with the number of gigantice beautiful towers or with mig malls. Success starts from within the nation itself. A successful country is a country that has both its educational and health sectors fully nationalised, and is never dependent on foreigners. Both the educational & health sectors in the Emirates are still being handled by foreigners, even after 40 years which is the age of the Emirates, still it failed dramatically to nationalise both of these sectors.
I think 40 years ( + the availability of funds) are more than enough to achieve the target, but the government did not set a proper plan/program for long-term success. It tells you a lot of the immaturity and how spoiled/corrupted people are here. Its such a shame for me as an Emarati to share this with you all, but thats the truth which none can deny. In the UAE University, the college of education has been neglected so badly instead of utilizing it to prepare for nationalising the educational sector in the country! What an absolute disgrace that the concerned official of the ministry of education, and higher education are responsible for!
For instance, the education council of Abu Dhabi hired 800 teachers, all FOREIGNERS!
They hired 250 nationals ONLY, and when they were questioned that on the national radio, they simply justified it that there aren't enough qualified national teachers! An extremely ugly justification.
How can a country claim success when it refuses to hire its own national as teachers claiming they aren't qualified?!?!
I think the loyality of the officials should be questioned in courts!!


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As per those bloggers, none of them are from Iranian backgrounds!
Ahmad Mansoor, the most extreme among those bloggers is from Al Shehhi family, an Arab.

The issue with Iran has nothing to do with ethnicities, its clearly to do with sectarianism. Iran is ruled by a bunch of Shia clerics who are abusing religion to control power. Majority of Iranians are against their current regime, and they started the protests couple of years ago. Those Shia protestors in Bahrain are ARAB Shia, and NOT Iranians. In fact, the majority of Bahrainis from Iranian backgrounds in Bahrain are Sunnis, and they're blindly against the Shia clergy/regime of Iran. Likewise with Emiraties from Iranian backgrounds (like myself) we're Sunnis, and well known for being loyal to the ruling families here, and we're strictly against the Shia clergy/regime in Iran as we believe it has caused more destruction to the region, starting with the Iranians themselves.
I just hope people can distinguish between ethnicities and sectarianism.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the bloggers, I'm not going to discuss the political issues they raised, as I simply don't want to invovle myself with politics anymore . But I generally disagree with them, atleast for the inappropriate language they used. However, I think people should always be given advice and offered another chance.

Good post Sym, can't say I agree with everything you say but well said.

Bora Bora wrote:I'll answer your question, and in return please answer mine.

The explanation is quite easy: The number of expats working in the US and UK doesn't run into the millions and probably isn't anywhere close to a million. Government wouldn't allow it. There are different nationalities who are American citizens (not to be mistaken for expats) and then there are work visas, which are limited in the number that are issued. There are quite a few Canadians that work in the States as I think it is easy for them to cross over (the border). It is also very hard to find companies that will sponsor expats.

The US and UK, along with Dubai and the rest of the world hit a wall with the economy. Companies in the US and UK terminated millions of jobs and when there is a need to employ, they are hiring people who are overqualified educationally and experience wise, much to the employer's benefit, and can pay them less as these people accept these jobs for the sake of having work and an income. For example you may have someone who was a vice president in a company who took a job as a manager. You have managers that are taking jobs as salespeople and working fast food outlets. A job is a job. The unemployment is high in the US and UK because of population. US government terminated jobs because of the economy. Where 5 individuals did 5 individual jobs, there are now 3 people doing the work of 5.

My question to you was if there are unemployed locals, who probably feel that jobs were taken away from them because of expats, why aren't they given the jobs that are held by expats in government and semi-government? Isn't any job better than no job? That's how Americans see it, especially during these economic times. Besides, doesn't the govenment give them a stipend every month when they work. I understood this to be the case as told to me by a local.

If you notice, I don't take a brush and paint ALL locals as being the same, because that is not and never will be the case. Unfortunately you use the term expats as a whole. We aren't all bad you know.

I will also say that there are many expats that are not qualified to perform in many positions, especially at the higher level where they are out of their element, but have the right people in place to carry them. Most of these people are "bully" bosses- covering up their lack of ability to do what they were hired to do and throw people off with intimidation. There are cases where it's a matter of who you know, not what you know (expat wasta?? ) when it comes to getting jobs. Expats bring expat friends to pack companies with people who are on their "team" and those loyal to the boss are rewarded in kind with salary and nice packages. There are many locals in positions that they aren't qualified for, just as there are expats.

As for the education, you cannot compare UK and US education to the education available here in Dubai. I know of many US expats who have children who say that Dubai education is so easy compared to the States, but they want to go back to the States for higher education. I can only hope they can pass and qualify to get into the universities/colleges that they aim for.

your answer to my question is unsatisfying bora !Mexican-Americans , Indian American and Chinese- American are all expats at the end regardless of their technical names ....your government allowed it bcz of their system just like the UK ..... I lived there I know the problem ( I have been told )
don't base you argument on something more that ( I have been told )... your " facts "are very shallow my dear. you need do go out there and experience it first hand instead of hearing it from someone.
I don't know who told you that expats are a threat to locals jobs !! they are not ,for now at least. And when a local refuse to take a vacant job then it is his personal problem not mine …again locals won’t take it for it pays very little bora even for expats, aiming high is not a bad thing.3000 5000 salary is a joke really , don't you agree. and locals , young ones, wont take it bcz they have a diff life than western ones , they live in packs not much expenses to pay..and does not get abandoned by their families to be "independent" … in most of AD departments only 5% are expats by the end of the year after it use to be up 50%, when ever there is a local who is up to the task they offer him the job , that’s why % in expats got lowered during those last years .of course with a change in education field directions toward technical fields.
A good example is ADNOC, the UAE petroleum company,, there locals use to be less than 10% now it up to 70% including technical’s on fields , they had a good strategy opening their won schools for engineering and technical in oil fields .
Private businesses will never pay the same as government here and the government wont force them to it …
my disagreement with you bora is that you give all expats credit of few good ones if you know what I mean. just like chocoholic always take credit of the west technology when she had nothing to do with it
UAE has an open market that is enough for everyone . but if you are told that expats are here bcz of their qualifications then you have been fooled .being smart or dedicated to your job is a personality thing than a nationality .
after all i guess we should refer to it as a supply and demand and there will be demand for cheap products to make a big profit .

Please don't speak about locals as a whole as if you're our God (a3uthubilla) or something - been trying really hard to stay out of this conversation; but you're just making us look worse and worse and worse...

bushra21 wrote:Please don't speak about locals as a whole as if you're our God (a3uthubilla) or something - been trying really hard to stay out of this conversation; but you're just making us look worse and worse and worse...

@ burshra. Not to worry hon. The only one he manages to make look foolish is himself. He is definitely an exception and does not represent locals.

@ Kid, clearly I have hit a few nerves with you.

The examples you site: Mexican, Chinese, etc. you refer to them Americans. And as long as they are in the country legally and documented, they are as much as an American as I am regardless of their ethnicity - they are not expats. You spent what - a couple of years as a student in the US and you know all about America? You tell people who have been in the UAE for years that they don't know anything about the UAE, yet you spend a couple of years in America and you know all about America!!!! You know as much about America as you do the reality of the UAE (and expats!).

Discussion closed.

bushra21 wrote:Please don't speak about locals as a whole as if you're our God (a3uthubilla) or something - been trying really hard to stay out of this conversation; but you're just making us look worse and worse and worse...

Don't worry Burshra, Kid only makes himself look stupid - on virtually every occasion. We know he is the exception rather than the rule. I'm glad you said something!

Chocoholic wrote:

bushra21 wrote:Please don't speak about locals as a whole as if you're our God (a3uthubilla) or something - been trying really hard to stay out of this conversation; but you're just making us look worse and worse and worse...

Don't worry Burshra, Kid only makes himself look stupid - on virtually every occasion. We know he is the exception rather than the rule. I'm glad you said something!

I don't think the kid is stupid, he has some valid points. He's entitled to speak his mind about his own country without being called names. That just makes you all sound stupid.

been trying really hard to stay out of this conversation

Well why don't you then?

desertdudeshj wrote:Good post Sym, can't say I agree with everything you say but well said.

Thanks a lot DDS. I hope people realise that we Emaratis got different views as well.

Honestly I think its very important to listen to the expats point of view and concerns with regard to such topics & issues, because they ARE part of the UAE society.

Bethsmum wrote:I don't think the kid is stupid, he has some valid points. He's entitled to speak his mind about his own country without being called names. That just makes you all sound stupid.

been trying really hard to stay out of this conversation

Well why don't you then?

Yes he is entitled to speak his mind, but that does not entitle him to belittle expats (as well as making claims in a derogatory way about America, as well as trying to appear that he knows more about America than I would ).

He just moved to the top in the "stupid" category. Do you believe Kid sees you any differently from any other expat?? He will p*ss on your back and tell you it's raining as he would on the back of any other expat.

As for bushra commenting: Clearly she's offended by Kid's comments, so as an Emirati why should she not comment??

@ Sym: hat's off to you Sym. Very, very well said. Too bad the powers that be can't see it as clearly as you do. Is there a majlis that you can visit for open discussion where you may open a few minds and eyes of those who can initiate change?

I think there are more thinkers like you Sym and fewer like Kid. I know I have spoken to quite a few Emiratis who "think" about the reality of the UAE as opposed to Kid's smoke and mirrors mentality trying to convince themselves of their very own words to be true.

Morning bora

Yes he is entitled to speak his mind, but that does not entitle him to belittle expats (as well as making claims in a derogatory way about America, as well as trying to appear that he knows more about America than I would ).

Well I reckon the kids only trying to get back at all those who belittle the locals here. After all, I know what that feels like, to have people come to your country and slag it off. It's most annoying!

He just moved to the top in the "stupid" category. Do you believe Kid sees you any differently from any other expat?? He will p*ss on your back and tell you it's raining as he would on the back of any other expat.

It doesn't really bother me how the kid sees me, as I'm sure he isn't bothered about how I see him. I don't think all the locals are like that Bora. He seems perfectly reasonable to me.

As for bushra commenting: Clearly she's offended by Kid's comments, so as an Emirati why should she not comment??

Because she said she didn't want to! Who's forcing her? BTW I thought she was a Pakistani LOL Are you sure she's local? Engaged to a Brit? What the hell is she thinking about?? Someone needs to have a word there.

I think there are more thinkers like you Sym and fewer like Kid. I know I have spoken to quite a few Emiratis who "think" about the reality of the UAE as opposed to Kid's smoke and mirrors mentality trying to convince themselves of their very own words to be true.

Sym's on his best behaviour

bushra21 wrote:Please don't speak about locals as a whole as if you're our God (a3uthubilla) or something - been trying really hard to stay out of this conversation; but you're just making us look worse and worse and worse...

Could you please define what a local is? There are a lot of local wannabe's. Why do you consider yourself a local?

Flying Dutchman wrote:

bushra21 wrote:Please don't speak about locals as a whole as if you're our God (a3uthubilla) or something - been trying really hard to stay out of this conversation; but you're just making us look worse and worse and worse...

Could you please define what a local is? There are a lot of local wannabe's. Why do you consider yourself a local?

@BM: the fact that she says "you're making US look worse......." would lead one to conclude that she is local.

@FD: WHAT??? Are you saying that may be "impersonating" a local?

Bora Bora wrote:@FD: WHAT??? Are you saying that may be "impersonating" a local?

The old days:

bushra21 wrote:Because to be honest, I am not really local

http://www.dubaiforums.com/philosophy-dubai/racism-issue-t14669-75.html

Well nobody really IS local. Just like no one really IS American, save for the native indians. It is a young country with people from all across the region and even as far off as China, Europe and Africa who have become naturualised citizens.

desertdudeshj wrote:Well nobody really IS local. Just like no one really IS American, save for the native indians. It is a young country with people from all across the region and even as far off as China, Europe and Africa who have become naturualised citizens.

Does that mean you really aren't Pakistani??? and I'm really not American?? Which means......................we are stateless???

DDS, my family tree goes back to the Dutch and Native American Indian. My paternal great-grandfather was half Native American Indian. Ethnicity is not what makes an American. Either born in the US or becoming "American" through naturalization, makes one American.

People from all over the world migrate to America - become citizens - and become part of the fabric that makes America what it is. Ask anyone born in America or became a citizen of America - they will tell you that they are American. America is/was/has become their homeland.

Should you relocate and get citizenship from Australia or Canada or New Zealand or the United States, when asked your nationality will you say Pakistani?

-- Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:27 pm --

Flying Dutchman wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:@FD: WHAT??? Are you saying that may be "impersonating" a local?

The old days:

bushra21 wrote:Because to be honest, I am not really local

http://www.dubaiforums.com/philosophy-dubai/racism-issue-t14669-75.html

You have quite a memory FD!!!

Bushra ,
I'm sorry girl, but if you are insecure toward your capability as a local then that's up to you , I speak my opinion and not on your behave … I'll stand to what I believe, can't be weak like you .
Bora,
I can see that you became like the rest ! using your last reserved weapon of insults one you start losing … coman bora you can do better than " Discussion closed."

ladies and gentlemen its me UAE kid. when did I ever cared how I look in this crowed
Discussion closed.

uaekid wrote:Bushra ,
I'm sorry girl, but if you are insecure toward your capability as a local then that's up to you , I speak my opinion and not on your behave … I'll stand to what I believe, can't be weak like you .
Bora,
I can see that you became like the rest ! using your last reserved weapon of insults one you start losing … coman bora you can do better than " Discussion closed."

ladies and gentlemen its me UAE kid. when did I ever cared how I look in this crowed
Discussion closed.

Discussion closed because you don't have the capability of "discussing" and seeing reality. Insults?? That's rich coming from you. Keep telling yourself what a winner you are Kid, and people will have to remind you that you're not. But no worries, you have BM to catch you.