Turkey As A Conquerer

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Turkey as a conquerer Jun 13, 2011
I was trying to start a thread about the history of Turkey after the Turkish elections. Found an excellent article instead. The author is more eloquent than I am and posing question too difficult to answer. Will try to keep the copy/paste to a minimum.

Let’s try to rid ourselves from the chains of religious ideology or just ideology and try to be fair. The return to the 1967 borders means a no-loss bet, an oxymoron. It’s tantamount to betting money on a game, losing it and making a scene at the bet shop to take back the money. In warfare terms, this would be similar to Greeks proposing Turkey a return to the pre-1923 borders: They attacked, they lost, and they, unlike the Arabs, have no intention to capture central Anatolia in the 21st century.

Here, the question is simple: Would the United Arabia today agree to return to the 1967 borders if their glorious eight-nation united force had succeeded to annihilate Israel four decades ago? The Arabs should be able to understand that they can always enjoy lunch in Tel Aviv, like Israel’s peaceful Arab citizens do, once they overcome their religious and ideological hatred of the “Jooos” and make peace with them.

Alternatively, if the foreign minister is so keen on the idea of freedom flotillas against illegal blockades, he can think of Varosha in Cyprus, which has remained a ghost town after the Turkish army fenced it off in 1974. But Mr Davutoğlu has other, preferred, responsibilities.

Last week, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan addressed a local crowd in Diyarbakır, saying that: “We are the grandchildren of Saladin Ayyubi’s army [soldiers] that conquered Jerusalem.” So, says the prime minister, the ancient capital of Judaism had been conquered by Muslims.
But, then, why would something taken by force from someone else belong to its occupier? Why is Jerusalem Palestinian if it had been conquered from its ancient possessors? And why should we be proud to be the grandchildren of someone whose army conquered other people’s territories?
A few days earlier, Mr Erdoğan, this time in Trabzon, reminded his party’s supporters that on May 29 “We proudly celebrated the 558th anniversary of the conquest of Istanbul.” And, he said, without the conquest of Trabzon, the conquest of Anatolia would have been incomplete.
It is not a coincidence that Fatih (conqueror) is a very common male name in Turkish. The Turks are proud to be the evlad-i fatihan (the descendants of conquerors). They are too happy to be living in the territories that once belonged to other nations.
If we are talking about universal justice and legality, why are the conquests of Istanbul, Trabzon and Anatolia by the Turks, and of Jerusalem by Ayyubi good; but the repatriation of Jerusalem to Israel by re-conquest bad? Especially when the re-conquest was the result of self-defense in the face of eight enemy armies who attack to annihilate a legitimate state.
More questions. If Jerusalem should be the capital of “free Palestine,” why should Istanbul not become the capital of “freer Greece?” Why is Nicosia a divided capital?


Forty-four years ago, the Arabs dreamed of “having lunch in Tel Aviv.” The dream cost them a major humiliation and Jerusalem, and the Middle East, peace. Today, the Turkish leaders dream of praying in the “Palestinian capital” Jerusalem while denying the Orthodox Patriarch of Istanbul his ecumenical designation. Luckily, the Turks, unlike Arabs, are the grandchildren of conquerors.
Keeping the ancient capital of Orthodoxy as the biggest Turkish city is fine. But please, Mssrs Erdoğan and Davutoğlu, at least try not to make too much noise in commemorating the day when we took it by force from another nation. And remember, gentlemen, claiming that Istanbul is a Turkish city by origin and Jerusalem is Palestinian sounds like too-dark black humor.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=a-tale-of-two-cities-istanbul-vs.-jerusalem-ii--2011-06-07

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=a-tale-of-two-cities-istanbul-v.-jerusalem-i--2011-06-02

Flying Dutchman
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Re: Turkey As A Conquerer Jun 13, 2011
Interesting thread.

The journalist asks:
If we are talking about universal justice and legality, why are the conquests of Istanbul, Trabzon and Anatolia by the Turks, and of Jerusalem by Ayyubi good; but the repatriation of Jerusalem to Israel by re-conquest bad? Especially when the re-conquest was the result of self-defense in the face of eight enemy armies who attack to annihilate a legitimate state.


One could equally ask why is the conquest and colonisation (and genocide) in the Americas and Australia ok, but the military occupation of Palestine by Israel not ok?

The Australian aborigines, Meso-Americans, Native-Americans etc were all undisputed owners of the land that now 'belongs' to the descendants of conquerors. Africa was largely handed back to the colonised, why not Sydney, Washington and Toronto?

Come to think of it, the Normans (French descendants of Scandinavian conquerers) invaded and colonised England! The Celts have a claim on London, surely?

Well, the difference seems to be quite simple. The Americas and Istanbul were conquered before there was international law. In the medieval past, it was common to plunder and commit genocide - indeed, killing the 'other' (Jews living in Europe, for example) was a frequent occurence over the years.

In 1967, the international community had moved on. It now is not acceptable to aquire land by force. UN Resolution 242 states this clearly.

As young Lucas stated in Israel recently - Israel is a pariah and a rogue state, precisely because it is in violation of the international norms of behaviour encapsulated in international law and UN resolutions calling for Israel to give up the military occupation.

As much as some in Israel may wish to live in Biblical times, when genocide and enslavement of virgins was apparently done at the command of God, we have now moved on. We have rule of law and we have people who refuse to allow their rights to be forgotten.

So, the difference is that the Military Occupation of Palestine by Israel started in 1967, not 1467. Simple.

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Shafique
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Re: Turkey As A Conquerer Jun 13, 2011
shafique wrote:Well, the difference seems to be quite simple. The Americas and Istanbul were conquered before there was international law.


Conviently forgetting the Greek war beginning 1920s and not to mention Cyprus! Exactly the point the author is trying to make.

shafique wrote:precisely because it is in violation of the international norms of behaviour encapsulated in international law and UN resolutions calling for Israel to give up the military occupation.


Only passionate about international law when its convenient. If not, forget about it!
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Re: Turkey As A Conquerer Jun 13, 2011
Well, let's not forget that Israel captured territory in 1948 and that this land they are being allowed to keep that. Israel went from 55% of Palestine to the 78% of Palestine. (Palestine being a well defined territory under the British Mandate).

UN resolution 242 explicitly states that Israel cannot acquire land by force, and hence the 22% of Palestine that is under military occupation by Israel cannot be 'stolen' (eg annexed).

The law is the law. Whatever you think of my views of the application of the law (and UN resolutions), frankly doesn't amount to a hill of beans. :)

However, the law does answer your question about why the military occupation of Palestine by Israel is different from the Turkish conquest of Anatolia etc.

Edit- the annexation of Cyprus is a different matter. That IS indeed subject to rule of law too. Tibet is also an interesting case too. But Israel's military occupation of Palestine can't be excused with the argument - 'ooh, look the Chinese etc got away with stealing land, why can't we??' :roll:

Closer to Mauritius, Diego Garcia should also be returned to the Islanders that were displaced from there ... but might is right and that's not going to happen any time soon. Doesn't make it right (or legal).

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Shafique
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Re: Turkey As A Conquerer Jun 14, 2011
shafique wrote:Well, let's not forget that Israel captured territory in 1948 and that this land they are being allowed to keep that. Israel went from 55% of Palestine to the 78% of Palestine. (Palestine being a well defined territory under the British Mandate).

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Shafique

........and that will never, ever, change shaf, so stop being thrasonical, or you will grow old and bitter.
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Re: Turkey As A Conquerer Jun 14, 2011
^Caps - next time try reading what you quote! ;)

I'm not saying that Israel should give up the 78% of Palestine - just that it should honour international law and give up the military occupation of the 22% (i.e. the land conquered in 1967).

I'm amazed at how many people are willing to justify, or even celebrate, the criminal actions of Israel!

Why should Israel be above the law?

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Shafique
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Re: Turkey as a conquerer Jun 14, 2011
Al Shafique...I forgot ...what happened in 1967...can you remind me why Israel "conquered" these territories
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Re: Turkey As A Conquerer Jun 14, 2011
Sure thing.

Israel's military knew it was far superior than the surrounding countries - and told the Israeli government this. Then Israel launched an attack on Egypt on the pretext that Nasser had restricted shipping.

Then it spent a few decades spinning a story about how it was a 'defensive war' and implying that Israel was attacked first.

What has that got to do with UN Resolution 242 which says it is illegal to acquire land by force?

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Shafique
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Re: Turkey As A Conquerer Jun 14, 2011
shafique wrote:Sure thing.

Then Israel launched an attack on Egypt on the pretext that Nasser had restricted shipping.

Cheers,
Shafique

What a crooked view you have, ..."restricting shipping" as you call it is blockading a port and it IS NOT a pretext: it IS an act of WAR, and it is criminal, it is a little late to cry baby after you got your a$$ kicked.
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Re: Turkey As A Conquerer Jun 14, 2011
Thanks for sharing your impartial view herve.

Now, coming back to international law and UN resolutions, do you have anything to add on these points, or do you just think that Israel shouldn't have to follow the rule of law because you hate Muslims and Arabs?

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Shafique
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Re: Turkey As A Conquerer Jun 14, 2011
shafique wrote:Israel's military knew it was far superior than the surrounding countries - and told the Israeli government this.


This is not consistent with the Israeli cabinet notes that were released a few years ago. Also Chief of Staff Rabin had a nervous breakdown, hardly self-secure. And lets not forget Israel toke great risks during the 6 day war, for example leaving its air space completely undefended when during the first day it destroyed Egypts air force in the Sinai. Israel gambled and won.

shafique wrote:Then Israel launched an attack on Egypt on the pretext that Nasser had restricted shipping.


Lets not forget that Nasser kicked out the UN in the Sinai, Egyptian jets provoked Israel with sorties over its nuclear reactor, the incursions from Gaza and of course the war calls from Nasser to destroy the jewish state.
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Re: Turkey As A Conquerer Jun 14, 2011
shafique wrote:Sure thing.

Israel's military knew it was far superior than the surrounding countries - and told the Israeli government this. Then Israel launched an attack on Egypt on the pretext that Nasser had restricted shipping.

Then it spent a few decades spinning a story about how it was a 'defensive war' and implying that Israel was attacked first.

What has that got to do with UN Resolution 242 which says it is illegal to acquire land by force?

Cheers,
Shafique


Not only that Shafique ever since ME become a colonial region with the start of 1st world war, ME armies and generals were nothing but simply became war mongers to serve and carry out orders from Britain and USrael to make israeli cause legitimate and stay firm footed for expantion...That means that the further they organise Arabs to attack israel, the more they secured zionists right to exist in ME and receive tremendous international support. Otherwise ME armies were nothing without the support and supply of westerners! Unfortunatly this was the name of the game in cold era between Soviets and the western block to advance their cause and objectives on Arabs as in camps..

Luckly Turks as well Arabs now have named the game, know all about it, western style that is!!!...Now watch the Turks sending more flotillas,and see what happens after...,according to the international law that is! LOL.. now I wonder if israeli attacks would give Turks another legitimate excuse and means to reconquer palestine again, since israel was able to do that while international law was in place!!! LOL. International politics is real real laughter when their is no sense amongst grown ups and intentions for real peace either by one side or all as defenders....
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Re: Turkey as a conquerer Jun 14, 2011
Of course Israel should try to obey international law. The annexations of East- Jerusalem and the Golan are not according international law. So should Turkey with regards to Cyprus. Its very ironic that the occupier of Northern-Cyprus criticizes Israel for its presence in territories that didnot have a legal sovereign before.

242 asks for reciprocacy, as is often forgotten. No reciprocacy (peace), no retreat from diputed terrotories.
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Re: Turkey as a conquerer Jun 14, 2011
Don't worry FD, all the annextations have occured either during the cold war as defense or after the aftermath of soviets fall, still as part of defense or security i.e armenian annexhation of azerbaijans Nagorno Karabakh..

They will all be resolved once real democracy widens globally..With the fall of Soviets It's started in Europe now spreading to ME and then move on to other problem areas of the world for peace..it will take some time to wipe out immature threats tho..
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Re: Turkey as a conquerer Jun 14, 2011
Berrin wrote:Don't worry FD, all the annextations have occured either during the cold war as defense or after the aftermath of soviets fall, still as part of defense or security i.e armenian annexhation of azerbaijans Nagorno Karabakh..


Turkey invaded a sovereign country, Cyprus, in a war of aggression. Israel conquered land without an international recognized soveriegn in a defensive war. I am all for justified critizism. But hammering on Israeli "crimes", while practically ignoring Cyprus is hypocracy. And Turks at the moment are at the top of hypocracy at the moment, also considering their treatment of the Kurds.
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Re: Turkey as a conquerer Jun 14, 2011
ssshhhhh, steady boy steady, Turks couldn't have ever attack cyprus without the support of America. Cyprus was getting more influenced by the soviets...I am telling you all the smaller and weak countries were the puppets of the big rulers who shut the doors to eachother to advance themselves in arms and space technology...

Some days ago I was reading in a newspaper that said, when russian president was visiting north blacksee costline, his citizens were critising how expensive and poor tourism sector was in Russian costline compared to Turks, his reply then was; when we were busy making missiles and rockets they were busy building hotels and tourism.ppffff..that's peace!!!

By the way FD scottish DUNDEE MARMALADE HEADS TO PALESTINE to free gaza, make sure you'll take your guard with the latest killer machines.. :lol: 8)

http://www.scotlandtogaza.com/2011/05/2 ... palestine/
Berrin
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Re: Turkey as a conquerer Jun 14, 2011
He'd better go to Syria.
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Re: Turkey As A Conquerer Jun 14, 2011
Well, we seem to be making some progress now.

No one disputes that Israel is breaking international law when it annexed Syrian Golan and East Jersusalem (after renaming parts of the West Bank 'East Jersusalem' first).

No one disputes that UN resolution 242 says that it is not allowed to gain territory by war, or that the 22% of Palestine occupied by Israel in 1967 does not fall under the category 'military occupation'.

We are all clear on the historical fact that Israel launched a military attack on Egypt and that this was the start of the 1967 war - some argue that Israel was provoked, and make excuses for this attack by Israel on Egypt - but that's to be expected when this was/is the official Israeli line.

The point is moot in any case - international law and UN Resolution 242 does not say it is ok to acquire land by force if you claim your war was 'defensive' and not 'offensive' - it states that acquiring land by conquest is not allowed. No ifs, buts etc on this point.

Whether Israel is just one of a number of countries who are in violation of international law is an interesting fact - but surely all of them should abide by the law, and we shouldn't use the excuse 'I may be a criminal, but look so is he'!?

It is good to talk, you see.

Cheers,
Shafique
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