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One of my best friends is a stripper, so I have given it a lot of thought. She has way more integrity and loyalty than many many others. She had a bad youth. Hasnot been given any chances that so many others did have. Never had a lucky break. On the positive side, I respect that she is making her own money, without holding up her hand to the state. I donot look down at her for stripping at all, she has more morality than most of society.
I did watch some of her shows (which is kinda weird I have to admit) and I think they are amazing. Not sleazy, but really sensual and artsy (like belly dancing can also be sensual and full of skill). If I ask myself the question would I have a problem if my daughter would be stripping, the answer is an absolutely yes! Would I mind that my son has a stag party in a strip club, no really not, as long as he is respectfull. Am I a hypocrite that way, perhaps, but thats the way I think.

general_A wrote:
you want to know what moral decay is? well at least from my point of view, men allowing their women to strip naked in front of strange men and rubbing their flesh against a complete stranger for a few dollars, men allowing there women to do p<3n for people to watch, so in general it is the exploiting of young women is a big moral decay, and unfortunately it is increasing in our world.

Gertrude wrote:
However sleeping with your cousin is di$gusting and sick, the good thing is that it carries a penalty, genetic disorders are passed along and in the end the family degenerates, hence decay is there, and not in the strip bar.

Sleeping with causins cannot be that di$gusting cause even the royals of the western cultures were practising this up until early 20th century or something like that.

But I find these even more di$gusting...all happening in secularised western cultures to puke us..
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life ... 332635.ece
http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 31,00.html

See Gertrude,Herve...Where is your western enlightment inside such scientific enlightment...
The best scientific enlightment we're yet gonna face is as incest kid birth rates increase as part of buying from sperm/egg banks...Gertrude and Herve only than you're gonna see what genetical modification is gonna be like:)

Flying Dutchman wrote:One of my best friends is a stripper, so I have given it a lot of thought. She has way more integrity and loyalty than many many others. She had a bad youth. Hasnot been given any chances that so many others did have. Never had a lucky break. On the positive side, I respect that she is making her own money, without holding up her hand to the state. I donot look down at her for stripping at all, she has more morality than most of society.
I did watch some of her shows (which is kinda weird I have to admit) and I think they are amazing. Not sleazy, but really sensual and artsy (like belly dancing can also be sensual and full of skill). If I ask myself the question would I have a problem if my daughter would be stripping, the answer is an absolutely yes! Would I mind that my son has a stag party in a strip club, no really not, as long as he is respectfull. Am I a hypocrite that way, perhaps, but thats the way I think.

FD, she is a performer. Strippers, burlesque dancers and fan dancers are considered performers and honorable professions. Professions that have been around for a very long time and will continue for the entertainment value provided. Back in the day it was for the entertainment of men, but slowly it progressed to where there are just as many women as men in the audience.

I was looking for a list of the woman who made burlesque famous and and art and I came across this. (Will get back with the list!) Made in 1943. If you like black and white movies, Gypsy Rose Lee. The movie is based on a book "Blame in on the G-String". Listen to the words of the songs.

http://www.archive.org/details/LadyofBurlesque

Enjoy.

Far cry from lap dancing and pole dancing.

Berrin wrote:

general_A wrote:
you want to know what moral decay is? well at least from my point of view, men allowing their women to strip naked in front of strange men and rubbing their flesh against a complete stranger for a few dollars, men allowing there women to do p<3n for people to watch, so in general it is the exploiting of young women is a big moral decay, and unfortunately it is increasing in our world.

Gertrude wrote:
However sleeping with your cousin is di$gusting and sick, the good thing is that it carries a penalty, genetic disorders are passed along and in the end the family degenerates, hence decay is there, and not in the strip bar.

Sleeping with causins cannot be that di$gusting cause even the royals of the western cultures were practising this up until early 20th century or something like that.

But I find these even more di$gusting...all happening in secularised western cultures to puke us..
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life ... 332635.ece
http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 31,00.html

See Gertrude,Herve...Where is your western enlightment inside such scientific enlightment...
The best scientific enlightment we're yet gonna face is as incest kid birth rates increase as part of buying from sperm/egg banks...Gertrude and Herve only than you're gonna see what genetical modification is gonna be like:)

Claiming that other peoples did it historically and linking newspaper articles of individuals being criticised for it doesn’t really make it right does it?

‘The Elephant in the room’
British Pakistanis are 13 times more likely to have children with genetic disorders than the general population - they account for just over 3% of all births but have just under a third of all British children with such illnesses.
Indeed, Birmingham Primary Care Trust estimates that one in ten of all children born to first cousins in the city either dies in infancy or goes on to develop serious disability as a result of a recessive genetic disorder.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/n ... 442010.stm

Flying Dutchman wrote:One of my best friends is a stripper, so I have given it a lot of thought. She has way more integrity and loyalty than many many others. She had a bad youth. Hasnot been given any chances that so many others did have. Never had a lucky break. On the positive side, I respect that she is making her own money, without holding up her hand to the state. I donot look down at her for stripping at all, she has more morality than most of society.
I did watch some of her shows (which is kinda weird I have to admit) and I think they are amazing. Not sleazy, but really sensual and artsy (like belly dancing can also be sensual and full of skill). If I ask myself the question would I have a problem if my daughter would be stripping, the answer is an absolutely yes! Would I mind that my son has a stag party in a strip club, no really not, as long as he is respectfull. Am I a hypocrite that way, perhaps, but thats the way I think.

That is the way you feel, but why? Why do you think so highly of your friend, yet would somehow think less of your daughter if she chose such a profession? Why would your son having a stag party at a strip club be okay, while daughter stripping not ok?

I think you hit on something about the background of many women who end up in se.x-related work. They have come from difficult backgrounds and often have lower education levels. Given more options, I think many women would choose to do something else than se.x work.

Bora Bora wrote:Back in the day it was for the entertainment of men, but slowly it progressed to where there are just as many women as men in the audience.

Yeah, this is what surprised me. The audience usually is almost 50/50 men, women. And women not onlt lesbians, but certainly also a lot of couples.

Bora Bora wrote:I was looking for a list of the woman who made burlesque famous and and art and I came across this. (Will get back with the list!) Made in 1943. If you like black and white movies, Gypsy Rose Lee. The movie is based on a book "Blame in on the G-String". Listen to the words of the songs.

http://www.archive.org/details/LadyofBurlesque

Thanks, will check it out

Bora Bora wrote:Far cry from lap dancing and pole dancing.

Well, I do support pole dancing as an Olympic sport, but donot think its gonna happen.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35524563/ns/world_news-weird_news/t/are-olympics-ready-pole-dancing/

-- Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:37 pm --

kanelli wrote:Why do you think so highly of your friend

I think very highly of my friend as a human being. Erotic dancers are human beings. When we are out I donot see her as an erotic dancer, but a very good friend. I think highly of her, because she has always been there for me, even when it was very hard for her. She straigthened me out a few times, as at times I can be a difficult person to deal with.

kanelli wrote: yet would somehow think less of your daughter if she chose such a profession?

I wouldnot think less of my daughter. I wouldnot like it at all, but wouldnot think less.

kanelli wrote: Why would your son having a stag party at a strip club be okay, while daughter stripping not ok?

Because I have seen the life that usually goes with it, which ain't pretty in many cases. I donot want her to be 'harassed' by men. Although most are very respectfull, there are obnoxious creeps in there.

kanelli wrote: They have come from difficult backgrounds

Totally agreed.

kanelli wrote:I think you hit on something about the background of many women who end up in se.x-related work. They have come from difficult backgrounds and often have lower education levels. Given more options, I think many women would choose to do something else than se.x work.

It appears that FD's friend is a professional stripper. She has costumes, an act, packs her bags and goes home - more than likely alone. How is being a stripper, as a profession, being se.x related/work? Dita von teese put burlesque back on the circuit and has an act that shows internationally.

If you talk about se.x related work, there are high-class (expensive) call girls that are highly educated and came from good homes/background.

I know people who hold very respectable positions, but it doesn't mean that I respect them.

For me, the fact that a naked or scantily-clad body is considered ok to be viewed by a non-intimate partner is a 'moral decay indicator'. It highlights the value (or lack of) society places on sensual pleasures - which include visual stimulation.

I'm a bit 'old fashioned' - but I think the erotic pleasures, including the visual component, should be ones enjoyed between long-term partners in the privacy of their homes. My view is that this is a good recipe for fidelity and for mutual respect.

There was a time in the west when the sight of a bare lady's ankle was considered scandalous, for example. I can't help but think that society has come too far the other way - we view a lady covering up as scandalous, but are just mildly amused/disgusted to see camel toes.

Just saying.

Cheers,
Shafique

Camel toes???

Yes Shaf, I agree, society and morals have gone too far the other way, but there will never be any going back. Best to keep your children locked up in your paradise, because it's a cruel world out there and it doesn't appear that it's going to get any better.

The only way to keep children in "check" and in line with a certain way of thinking and believing, is to shelter them within a community where everyone thinks alike. (Such as polygomist, Mormon, Quaker communities)Many children go out into the world and find that the rest of the world doesn't think the same way they were raised and through culture shock, children can rebel.

I think the 'sheltering' route is counter productive. (My personal opinion - it may work for some people)

The Amish community do live pretty separate lives, but their children go out into the community and then decide whether to come back - during their time 'outside' they dress normally, drink etc - but a good number return and choose to live by the Amish rules.

In some Pakistani etc immigrant families, in my experience, there is this desire and practice to closet children - but I've seen so many end in disaster with the children rebelling once they can and being 'lost' from the family .. however, less of this is going on these days.

What we are choosing to do is to not deny or hide our children from the casual se.xuality out there - that would be like King Canute trying to hold back the tide. Our 5 year old knows to look away when people kiss on screen, but knows what kissing is - and knows that it is what those in love do and what should be done by married couples 'because we are Muslim'. She covers the eyes of her 3 year old brother when the scenes come on tv and she's in the room.

Our eldest daughter is a teenager (14) has free access to the internet etc. Some of her friends are sleeping around - most aren't (thankfully - but that will change over the years). So far she's mature and secure about what her choices are and what our values are. She's a normal teenager otherwise and watches all the usual soaps and films which all have 'relationship' themes and that's ok with us - same with her choice of music, posters etc.

Each family and each community has different ways of dealing with the s.exuality around us, I find. Some don't think it is a sign of moral decay, others do.

Cheers,
Shafique

seperate the men from the women

Let's inject some humour:

What a strange creepy thing to say, that scarcely dressed women remind you of whores. Currently its a nice sunny weekend in Amsterdam. Even when going out near the RLD many women walk around in mini skirts and tight tank tops. It has never ever even crossed my mind they are whores nor reminded me of them, although its a few blocks away from the RLD.
Creeps who thinks this way are most probably the same that date rape and afterwards say she was asking for it.
And I am sure those moral knights all jerked off thinking about someone else than their partner or some other fantasy. That also emotional cheating, if you donot tell your partner.

I do believe a stable family is the corner stone of society, but going back to the Victorian era is too extreme for my taste. I do appreciate se.xual freedom up until a certain level.

Shaf, do you see the contradiction of your high moral thinking and then posting that video, as humor? You talk about moral decay indicators - well this certainly would leave a huge crack in your high morals. I can only wonder if Mrs Shaf saw the humor in that video. You sound like the preacher who speaks to the congregation of moral values from the pulpit and then goes back to his room and pulls out his p<3n, which would depend on his preference of course.

Shafique has more faces than the clock of Big Ben. I wonder if his daughter knows he posts stuff like that on an internet forum?
He's the type of man I'd like to protect my daughter against. Weirdo.

Bethsmum wrote:He's the type of man I'd like to protect my daughter against. Weirdo.

Must certainly.

Spin time!!! Let's take the video and put a different spin on it.

Just because I wear a high-end designer abaya:

1. Doesn't mean I am Arab
2. Doesn't mean I am Muslim
3. Doesn't mean I'm a virgin
4. Doesn't mean I don't do the nasty
5. None of the above
6. All of the above.

I've seen hookers in downtown Toronto and women going out to a club with friends who dress almost the same way. There is nothing wrong with saying that someone dresses like a hooker, beyond the fact that not all hookers look the same - e.g. the high class ones that blend in for discretion. Saying that someone looks like a hooker doesn't mean you think that they deserve to be raped. It certainly isn't a compliment that someone dresses like a hooker when their intention is not to advertise what is for sale. I think they should reconsider and wear something flattering that doesn't go into hooker-looking territory.

Victorian era was very extreme. I mean come on, seeing an ankle sent people into a tizzy? That's very oppressive. I think most people would agree that butt cheeks and breasts sticking out our showing through via tight or translucent clothing does leave little to the imagination and does not give a favourable impression, but there is nothing wrong with above the knee skirts and tank tops that cover appropriately and are tasteful for the person's body size.

I'm still thinking about my neighbours - the woman dressed in black and a head scarf who never swims with her children while her husband swims with a bare chest and swim trunks above the knee. He also wears t-shirts and shorts, while his wife shows only her face and hands. How is it that she is immodest to show anything more than face and hands, while men can show considerably more flesh? There should not be a double standard.

The only occasion it crosses my mind that a woman is a hooker or think she acts like one is when she is asking money for it, but that might be just me.

Flying Dutchman wrote:The only occasion it crosses my mind that a woman is a hooker or think she acts like one is when she is asking money for it, but that might be just me.

Nothing gets past you FD!!

There is nothing wrong with saying that someone dresses like a hooker

How, exactly does a hooker dress?

When we used to go the Reeperbahn in the winter, most of the prostitutes on the street were dressed in ski suits.

My name is not Dave Chapelle - but he does make a good point. He gives a graphic description of what he considers to be a 'whore's uniform' - and the audience laughed.

Using his analogy - arguing that some undercover cops don't dress in cop uniform is somehow missing the point, isn't it?

(And no, I don't see any contradiction in laughing at Dave Chapelle and my moral outlook/views.)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:My name is not Dave Chapelle

Noooooo !......really ! Come on now Dave, say it ain't so ?

kanelli wrote:Saying that someone looks like a hooker doesn't mean you think that they deserve to be raped.

The comedian does seem to go down that road and implying that women with in a 'whore uniform' shouldnot complain treated like one.

shafique wrote:My name is not Dave Chapelle - but he does make a good point. He gives a graphic description of what he considers to be a 'whore's uniform' - and the audience laughed.

Using his analogy - arguing that some undercover cops don't dress in cop uniform is somehow missing the point, isn't it?

(And no, I don't see any contradiction in laughing at Dave Chapelle and my moral outlook/views.)

Cheers,
Shafique

Of course you don't see the contradiction. Why would you??????

You forgot to mention if Mrs Shaf thought it was funny.

Bora, I think if Mrs Shafique is allowed to visit the internet it would be a case of ''Look away now!' if confronted with a lady in whore's clothing.

Bethsmum wrote:Bora, I think if Mrs Shafique is allowed to visit the internet it would be a case of ''Look away now!' if confronted with a lady in whore's clothing.

More like Shaf using the parental controls to ensure limited viewing.

shafique wrote:For me, the fact that a naked or scantily-clad body is considered ok to be viewed by a non-intimate partner is a 'moral decay indicator'. It highlights the value (or lack of) society places on sensual pleasures - which include visual stimulation.

I'm a bit 'old fashioned' - but I think the erotic pleasures, including the visual component, should be ones enjoyed between long-term partners in the privacy of their homes. My view is that this is a good recipe for fidelity and for mutual respect.

There was a time in the west when the sight of a bare lady's ankle was considered scandalous, for example. I can't help but think that society has come too far the other way - we view a lady covering up as scandalous, but are just mildly amused/disgusted to see camel toes.

Just saying.

Cheers,
Shafique

So Al shaphique, would you approve your wife or daughter to do belly dancing in public? is the arabic pole dancing version a moral decay too?
And for you to know the word "camel toe" indicates you ve been watching them too many times.
I d love to check your history in your hard drive
Old fascion means boring shaf, any woman would tell you that. Now we know that you would not have gotten any woman if you had to seduce her.

Oh lord. I didn't know what the reference to "camel toe" meant.

This coming from holier than tho, I travel the high moral road Shaf. I think my analogy of you and the preacher is spot on!!!!

I do remember how estatic Shaf was with this Muslima who won the Miss Universe or Miss World contest, while she walked around in her "whore outfit". Also probably a look away moment for the rest of the family.