What Really Drives Suicide Terrorists

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What really drives suicide terrorists Dec 14, 2010
Facts not hype - an acadamic examines the reasons behind terrorist suicide attacks. The conclusions aren't surprising to those who have actually been looking beyond sensationalist headlines and Islamophobic rantings on blogs which blame Islam.

Popular accounts of these suicide terrorists give the impression that most of them are globe-trotting extremists radicalized by militant networks to strike outside their homeland for religious or other transnational causes. These accounts are false.
..
While religion contributes in many cases to increased feelings of loyalty toward a kindred community that may be oceans away from an individual’s country of citizenship, the primary cause of these horrible phenomena is foreign occupation.

duh!


What really drives suicide terrorists?
By Robert Pape / December 9, 2010
Chicago

From the 9/11 hijackers to the double agent whose suicide attack in Afghanistan killed seven CIA employees last December, many people want to know what drives some Muslims – many of whom are middle class and well educated – to kill themselves in attacks on Americans and others in the West.

After examining 2,200 suicide attacks around the world since 1980 – the most comprehensive analysis ever conducted – I’ve concluded that the answer is both simple and disturbing. What drives them is deep anger at the presence of Western combat forces in the Persian Gulf region and other predominately Muslim lands.
Popular accounts of these suicide terrorists give the impression that most of them are globe-trotting extremists radicalized by militant networks to strike outside their homeland for religious or other transnational causes. These accounts are false.


What the evidence shows

In the 2,200 suicide attacks since 1980, over 90 percent of the attackers carried out strikes in their home countries, often just miles from their homes, to resist foreign occupation of land they prize.
Hence, Lebanese carried out the suicide attacks against Israel’s occupation of Lebanon; Turkish Kurds carried out the suicide attacks by the Kurdistan Workers’ Party against the Turkish military presence in their home areas; and Iraqis, Saudis, Syrians, Kuwaitis, and Jordanians carried out the suicide attacks against America’s military occupation of Iraq and the US threat to countries adjacent to Iraq.

Afghanistan is a prime example. We can identify 93 suicide attackers who have killed themselves to strike targets, mostly US and Western troops, in Afghanistan in recent years.

More than 90 percent are Afghan nationals and another 5 percent are from border regions of the country, while only 5 percent are from areas of the world beyond the immediate zone of conflict.
In other words, suicide terrorism in Afghanistan is not part of some global jihad looking for a place to land, but regional opposition to foreign military presence.

We’re missing the real threat

Transnational suicide terrorists do exist. But, they are exceptions to the rule. Understanding that transnational suicide attackers are “black swans” has important implications for explaining their existence. For years, many have sought to explain how an individual becomes a transnational terrorist by seeking to track points along a spectrum of radicalization.

The basic idea is that there is a large pool of potential extremists who become progressively radicalized
either through elite manipulation (religious leaders in mosques) or through social and economic alienation. Hence, policymakers embrace the idea of eavesdropping on many thousands of Muslims in the United States and Europe. This has done little to find terrorists, but a lot to scare many loyal citizens.
The fundamental problem with the “spectrum of radicalization” approach is that it is looking for many “white swans” that do not exist, while missing the rare black swans that might.

Consider the London suicide attacks in July 2005. Even if we restrict the pool of potential extremists to the 1.6 million Muslims living in Britain then, the spectrum of radicalization approach would expect more “homegrown” suicide attackers by orders of magnitude. After all, tens of thousands of British Muslims had met fundamentalist leaders in mosques, lost their jobs, or faced social difficulties that they might view as related to their ethnic or religious backgrounds. But just four men launched the attack.

Further, after a year-long investigation, MI5 found little evidence that any of the four London bombers were economically or socially alienated in significant ways. Mohammad Khan, the leader, was a mentor at a primary school with an exemplary employment record. Shezhad Tanweer drove his own red Mercedes to work in one of his father’s several businesses and was a trophy-winning cricket player. Another was known for going to night clubs and talking about girls and cars. None had a history of outbursts or violence, or other signs of significant opposition to British life.

What they did share was deep anger at Western occupation of kindred Muslim populations. Mr. Kahn and Mr. Tanweer left martyr videos to explain their motives.

“Your … governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world,” Khan said. “Until we feel security, you will be our targets.”

Recent so-called homegrown terrorists in the United States also reveal little social alienation, but deep anger at foreign occupation. Faisal Shahzad, who was sentenced to life in prison for planning the failed May 1 Times Square car bomb, cited US military activity in his family’s native Pakistan and the presence of US troops in various Muslim countries as reasons for his desire to kill American civilians.

While religion contributes in many cases to increased feelings of loyalty toward a kindred community that may be oceans away from an individual’s country of citizenship, the primary cause of these horrible phenomena is foreign occupation.

US approach is counterproductive

The US approach in countering this threat has done more harm than good. By simultaneously occupying two Muslim countries and cracking down on Muslim Americans, the US has angered elements of an entire population and made it more likely that they would feel more loyalty to their kindred communities abroad.
Further, aggressive surveillance missed the one behavior trait that the American and British transnational terrorists had in common: self-initiated efforts to communicate with representatives of Al Qaeda and other known terrorist groups to receive approval for their actions.

Counterterrorism operations should focus on what makes these rare events dangerous – that is, the point at which politically active groups seek detailed information and actual materials for lethal action, commonly from international terrorist organizations or their local representatives.


Law enforcement attempts to track large numbers of young Muslim men would incorrectly profile and target an entire community. Such manpower takes resources away from the most productive counterterrorism measure: the search for specific preparations for violent acts.

Robert A. Pape is professor of political science at the University of Chicago and co-author of “Cutting the Fuse: The Explosion of Global Suicide Terrorism and How to Stop It.”

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opi ... terrorists

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Shafique

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Re: What Really Drives Suicide Terrorists Dec 14, 2010
Interesting! Turns some of my previously held ideas of the backgrounds of some the terrorists on its head...

In the case of the bomber in Sweden, he was confronted in the Luton Mosque for having a distorted view of Islam and he never returned.

I have more questions about the profiles of these terrorists. For example, where is the evidence that these terrorists have tried to effect change in a non-violent way in the societies they are living in. Did they protest, march, write or sign petitions, write letters to newspapers and politicians, work with any organizations that lobby their governments for political change? Surely they would have been know to people, not living under the radar. Why does their anger fester under a seemingly normal facade only to result in behind the scenes contact with violent groups or independently seeking information on how to commit a terrorist act, then committing the actual act itself. These men have left behind their families, jobs, and the lives they seemed to enjoy. It isn't admirable at all, just wasteful and ineffective.
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Re: What really drives suicide terrorists Dec 14, 2010
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Re: What Really Drives Suicide Terrorists Dec 14, 2010
kanelli wrote:I have more questions about the profiles of these terrorists. For example, where is the evidence that these terrorists have tried to effect change in a non-violent way in the societies they are living in. Did they protest, march, write or sign petitions, write letters to newspapers and politicians, work with any organizations that lobby their governments for political change? ..


Good questions kanelli.

I don't know.

Perhaps these guys are just the normal small percentage of 'nutters' that all societies have had from time immemorial. We look at history and find that young men being violent for violence sake is a feature, but so are many young men being violent for some twisted reason or other. It could be religion, nationalism, class divisions or even football teams supported - i.e. all 'tribal' reasons.

There are examples of aristocrats and paupers signing up to fight in wars, trecking across oceans to fight in wars (be it against fascists or imperialists or as fascists and imperialists! :shock:)

So - perhaps the question is not what drives these men - but rather what available fights are available for those who are looking for fights?

I also think that what drives perceptions is the spin that society and media puts on the minority of attacks that these types of people carry out. There was no mass hysteria in the Britain when the pIRA were carrying out bombings in Britain (in Northern Ireland and the mainland) - there wasn't widespread hatred of Irish Catholics or a sensationalisation of the risks posed.

However, as Pape's research shows - the reasons these guys give for their actions is clear- as I highlighted in the quote I gave in the OP.

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Shafique
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Re: What really drives suicide terrorists Dec 14, 2010
Here is my take on this "radicalization phenomenon"

Concerning the radicalization elements (mosque, islamic institutions ) - No doubt the way things are preached are expressed in strong language, that usually is done to stir the audience into action ( not referring to blowing themselves up) , for example , Using stronger forms of expression of any point is a standard persuasion skill.

However , the case of those in the high radicalization susceptibility groups , perhaps find themselves surrounded by the massive smear campaign that is circulating all over the globe, surely when confronted with this , sentiments of resentment will be aroused , until progressively it will be converted into frustration ( any person when placed in a situation where they feel helpless will take a drastic measure that is not fully thought out) , And so they start to consider the only avenue which has become common knowledge - that being going kamakazi

The second factor would be the fact, these high susceptibility groups dont necessarily actually investigate their religions thoroughly, Because if they did then they would realize that suicide in itself is an action that is illegal in islam.

Third factor could be summed up by this quote - "To die for a religion is easier than to live it absolutely -Jorge_Luis_Borges" ,

Since obviously those members of the high risk group are frustrated and confused and want to take the easiest way out.
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Re: What really drives suicide terrorists Dec 16, 2010
What really drives suicide terrorists?

Toyota?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: What Really Drives Suicide Terrorists Dec 16, 2010
^ I guessed you'd say something like that.. but you're right...

This is perhaps why:
Image

More believable than any indestructible passport - the topgear indestructible Toyota!
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: What really drives suicide terrorists Dec 25, 2010
This has absolutely nothing to do with occupation:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinian-family-sends-mentally-ill-son-to-settlement-in-hope-idf-shoots-him-1.332433

Palestinian family sends mentally ill son to settlement in hope IDF shoots him

A Palestinian caught trying to infiltrate a settlement Wednesday night claims he was sent by his family members, who had hoped he would be killed by soldiers during the infiltration.

Israel Defense Forces soldiers patrolling the central West Bank near the settlement of Beit El on Wednesday spotted a Palestinian walking toward the settlement and subsequently arrested him.


Is there a study of some sorts which researches how many suicide bombers all mentally deranged?
Besides that, there are also those that get a wet dream when a Arab lady wants her son to blow himself up in Jerusalem. That also is insanity!
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Re: What Really Drives Suicide Terrorists Dec 25, 2010
^FD, have you heard of the saying: 'the exception that proves the rule'? I'm sure there must be an equivalent in Dutch.

IF this story pans out to be true (and not IDF spin), then its horrible that a family would send a mentally ill member to be killed by the military occupiers of their country. However, it is a big if.

The military occupation by Israel is indeed behind the resistance to the military occupation, I'm still surprised that people are still beating the dead horse by arguing (and I guess some believe) that the resistance is actually the fault of the Palestinians living under military occupation! :shock:

That said, thanks for bumping this thread about an academic survey that compares reality with Israeli spin.

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Re: What really drives suicide terrorists Dec 25, 2010
Popular accounts of these suicide terrorists give the impression that most of them are globe-trotting extremists radicalized by militant networks to strike outside their homeland for religious or other transnational causes. These accounts are false.


New to me, I thought 90% of the nearly 2,000 suicide bombings in Iraq were carried out by foreigners (North Africans, Syrians, Jordanians - you know, 'globe trotters')?

Here's an adequate response (debunking) to Pape's arguments:

http://www.martinkramer.org/sandbox/200 ... -response/
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Re: What Really Drives Suicide Terrorists Dec 26, 2010
^Thanks eh - whilst I don't agree with Kramer's thesis and conclusion, I do commend him for being honest enough to present his theory as a theory and to not join you guys in denial of blatant, undeniable facts.

He doesn't deny that in Lebanon and Palestine, for example, that Professor Pape's conclusions do fit the facts on the ground - and that the reasons there are indeed the Israeli Military Occupation (words he correctly uses):

The Lebanese and Palestinian cases adhere closest to Professor Pape’s theory. Here we have instances of Israeli military occupations, in one case accompanied by settlements, and a host of movements, some Islamist and some not, that have employed suicide bombing in systematic campaigns. But even these cases deviate somewhat from the paradigm, because of the prominence of Islamic themes in their genesis.


Translation: Professor Pape's academic paper and conclusion do fit the facts, but I want to continue to blame Islam.

But I do think that people should indeed read both sides of the argument and then compare against Pape's paper.

For me, Kramer is valiantly trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but the best he can do (and he admits this) is to try and poke holes in Pape's conclusions by looking for exceptions and trying to extrapolate these. He concedes that these exceptions are acknowledged by Pape (Pape doesn't deny that +some+ suicide terrorists are religiously motivated).

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Shafique
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Re: What really drives suicide terrorists Dec 26, 2010
He doesn't deny that in Lebanon and Palestine, for example


For example?

Uh, no. That's actually the only aspect of Pape's thesis that Kramer doesn't totally reject. And even then, both Lebanese and Pal-Arab Islamic suicide bombings, especially the Pal-Arab ones, do not fit any type of mold that Pape creates for them.

So, we have you distorting Kramer's response to Pape from the Get-go.

(words he correctly uses):


Notice how Kramer says 'closest' and also notice that Kramer goes on in a rather lengthy explanation where he convincingly shows where Pape's analysis falls short.

Translation: Professor Pape's academic paper and conclusion do fit the facts, but I want to continue to blame Islam.


That's a pretty incredible translation when Kramer shows that Pape's conclusions do NOT fit any facts - in fact, Kramer demonstrates how Pape is loose on a number of so called facts, such as misidentifying Islamic suicide bombings in N. Africa as unknown, failing to explain why the vast majority of suicide bombers in Iraq are non-Iraqi and why those bombers predeominately target Iraqi civilians or Pape's generous classification of bombings taking place in Pakistan as being the result of an occupation in a neighboring country by pretending that Pakistan is occupied as well.

But back to Pape's belief that the vast majority of suicide bombers are not 'globe trotters', which you highlighted in the OP.

Do you actually want to side with Pape that the majority of the over 2000 suicide bombers in Iraq are not foreigners - which, if they were, would make them globe trotters?
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Re: What Really Drives Suicide Terrorists Dec 26, 2010
Hey, I'm glad that you think Kramer's blog entry negates Pape's academic paper - I'm not surprised at that.

What I've merely pointed out is that Kramer concedes that the Israeli Military Occupation neatly fits in with the conclusions of Pape's academic study.

I'm not going to get into another debate with you over your interpretation of what Pape wrote - what's the point?

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Shafique
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Re: What really drives suicide terrorists May 14, 2011
Yesterday, two suicide bombers blew up 80 Pakistani military personnel and civilians to avenge Osama bin Laden's death.

Did they not get the memo from Prof. Pape that they are to blow themselves up for political reasons?

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/ ... 65706.html

:?
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Re: What really drives suicide terrorists May 14, 2011
Mouslims passengers should be profiled, pulled out of the line and body searched to make sure they are not going to drive the planes civilized people are boarding.
Now they can blow each other, i could not care less what drives them or what effort al shafique is going through to convince the world that mouslims are peaceful and harmless :lol: . So far they are taking the right direction, burn a qran in florida, and they will riot against each other in afghanistan, kill their leaders, and they will blow each other in pakistan. I keep laughing on how dum they are, i was reading a report of a failed terrorist attack, a small boat was to hit the hull of a tanker and blow themselves up. They did not make it, why? because the small boat sunk after 50 yards because overloaded.
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Re: What Really Drives Suicide Terrorists May 14, 2011
shafique wrote: The military occupation by Israel is indeed behind the resistance to the military occupation, I'm still surprised that people are still beating the dead horse by arguing (and I guess some believe) that the resistance is actually the fault of the Palestinians living under military occupation! :shock:

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Shafique

It is not a military occupation, where? call it containment if you like, Isreal won the war after all. do you support the losers actions against innocent civilians , don't they fall under terrorism? you are not Palestinian, don't you think it s a lost cause because Isreali borders are to stay the way they are for ever.
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Re: What Really Drives Suicide Terrorists May 14, 2011
gertrude wrote:It is not a military occupation


Hmm.
The United Nations Security Council,[65] the United Nations General Assembly,[66] the United States,[67] the EU,[68] the International Court of Justice,[69] and the International Committee of the Red Cross[70] refer to it as Palestinian territory occupied by Israel. General Assembly resolution 58/292 (17 May 2004) affirmed that the Palestinian people have the right to sovereignty over the area.[71]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank#Legal_status

The occupation is being enforced by the military - and the military are administering the occupied land, not the civilian government of Israel.

You haven't been listening to the fanbois have you? tut tut.

:)

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Shafique
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Re: What really drives suicide terrorists May 14, 2011
In the 2,200 suicide attacks since 1980, over 90 percent of the attackers carried out strikes in their home countries, often just miles from their homes, to resist foreign occupation of land they prize.


How would supporters of Pape counter claims by the US military that 90% of suicide bombings in Iraq are carried out by foreigners?

Approximately 90% of the suicide attacks in Iraq are carried out by foreigners," he said.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq ... tudy_N.htm
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Re: What Really Drives Suicide Terrorists Sep 27, 2011
Worth a re-read for the facts in the OP.

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Re: What really drives suicide terrorists Sep 28, 2011
Thanks for the bump.

Did you ever get around to answering my above post?

event horizon wrote:
In the 2,200 suicide attacks since 1980, over 90 percent of the attackers carried out strikes in their home countries, often just miles from their homes, to resist foreign occupation of land they prize.


How would supporters of Pape counter claims by the US military that 90% of suicide bombings in Iraq are carried out by foreigners?

Approximately 90% of the suicide attacks in Iraq are carried out by foreigners," he said.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq ... tudy_N.htm
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Re: What really drives suicide terrorists Sep 28, 2011
You're welcome eh.

No I didn't bite at your attempt to distract away from the thread's topic - the REASON why suicide bombers carry out their attacks. You're big enough now to read through the articles and see whether you are comparing the same data sets or not.

Now, had you addressed the findings that suicide bombings are about foreign occupation - I would have responded. You haven't as yet.

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Shafique
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Re: What really drives suicide terrorists Sep 28, 2011
Ok, you don't want to address Pape's incorrect claim that 90% of suicide bombers strike within their own country - the data from Iraq shows 90% of the 2,000 plus suicide bombers are foreigners, proving that perhaps a majority of suicide bombers - far from 10% - are actually 'globe trotters'. Fair enough.

What is the reason you or Pape believe Muslims from across the Middle East are traveling to Iraq in the thousands to blow up Shia Mosques and marketplaces?

Oh, and did you notice my thread about the Indonesian suicide bomber who detonated in a church? This was the third instance of suicide bomber(s) striking churches in the past 12 months I'm aware of - the others being in Iraq and Egypt.

It's also interesting that I'm not aware of one single recorded instance of a non-Sunni committing a suicide bombing in Iraq since the coalition removal of Saddam Hussein's regime. No Christians or Shi'ites have blown themselves up. Why do you suppose there haven't been any Shi'ites - who have a recent record of carrying out suicide attacks in the name of religion- who've carried out any suicide bomb attacks against either Sunni insurgent butchers massacring their people or foreign soldiers?

To me, that proves that suicide bombing isn't as simple as foreign occupation = suicide bombing, which is Pape's thesis.

I mean, Nigeria, Yemen, Indonesia, (and Britain's Muslims) have all had more suicide bombers detonate in their respective non-occupied countries than any citizens of Iceland have - where there is a US military base along with the dozens of non-Muslim nations where foreign military bases are stationed.

I think it's time for Pape, et al, to work on another theory for what creates suicide bombers.
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Re: What Really Drives Suicide Terrorists Sep 28, 2011
You're catching on eh.

I do want to discuss the reasons why suicide bombers launch their attacks. You're loon theory that it is because of religion doesn't stand scrutiny.

Joe Stack committed a suicide attack in Texas in February 2010. He was a Christian. In Palestine, Christian suicide bombers have launched attacks against Israeli targets. In Palestine itself, an American trans-national terrorist - Baruch Goldstein - launched a terrorist attack which was effectively a suicide attack. And let's not forget, the modern day suicide terrorist bombing stems from attacks in the Sri Lankan civil war. (There's no need to go back to WWII and kamikazee pilots)

So, your theory that it is a tactic linked to Islam needs to explain where non-Muslims use it. Your theory that it is not linked to political aspirations and the lack of access to more sophisticated weapons also needs to be explored.

The reasons for the vast vast majority suicide bombing, if we look at the evidence, is because of foreign occupation.

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Shafique
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Re: What really drives suicide terrorists Sep 28, 2011
yeah right, and that s why they chant allahu akbar when they light the fuse, never heard them chanting the Lord prayer.

should i remind you that allahu akbar is muslim
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Re: What Really Drives Suicide Terrorists Sep 28, 2011
Did Joe Stack in February 2010 shout Allahu Akbar when he flew his plane into a Federal building in Texas? :roll:

What about the American Kahanist terrorist - Baruch Goldstein? (Now HE did carry out his terrorist attack because of religion).

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Shafique
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Re: What Really Drives Suicide Terrorists Sep 28, 2011
shafique wrote:Did Joe Stack in February 2010 shout Allahu Akbar when he flew his plane into a Federal building in Texas? :roll:

What about the American Kahanist terrorist - Baruch Goldstein? (Now HE did carry out his terrorist attack because of religion).

Cheers,
Shafique

your last post is from a desperate man. non sense.
the point here is
terrorist chanting allahu akbar means they are using the text and teaching of islam moments before they blow themselves up.
so i ll put it in equation for you
terrorist = allahu akbar = moslem

where does joe stark fit in this equation
so stay on topic please
feel free to start another thread if you like on terrorists who chant the lord prayer
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Re: What Really Drives Suicide Terrorists Sep 28, 2011
Again with the loon theories. :roll:

A Muslim committing an act that is forbidden in Islam does not equate to Islam allows the criminal act. Geez - were you ever really in the French intelligence service?

Joe Stark is the last suicide terrorist to strike in the US. And yes, he doesn't fit your loon profile. Ergo, your loon theory is wrong.

I thank you.

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Shafique
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Re: What really drives suicide terrorists Sep 28, 2011
oh! look who says that.
Should i remind you that i caught you al shafique
you committed an act that is forbiden in islam (take a mortgage), and indeed it does equate to Islam allows the criminal act because you can use dhuroora to go around it , you proved it yourself.

Another thing, you are using double language and playing with words
suicide is forbiden in islam , yes, but radical moslems are not committing suicide here, it is called martyrdom, not suicide, and martyrdom is allowed in islam.
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Re: What Really Drives Suicide Terrorists Sep 28, 2011
LOL - you were caught in a lie. I wasn't.

Anyway, by your logic - surely a Muslim taking out a mortgage makes it an Islamic mortgage. Or are you going to argue that I'm not a Muslim now. ;)

But I suggest you try and look past your loon theory and fatwas, and actually read the OP. Stop embarrassing yourself.

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Shafique
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Re: What really drives suicide terrorists Sep 28, 2011
The reasons for the vast vast majority suicide bombing, if we look at the evidence, is because of foreign occupation.


Let's look at the evidence. Why are there more Saudi suicide bombers to have blown themselves up in Iraq than Iraqi (or Iranian)?

The causes for suicide bombing are multi variable and when we look at Islamic suicide bombers, we see religion plays the significant role as much as anything else. (There aren't Copts flocking to Iraq to blow themselves up)
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