Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai General Chat

Victory in Europe.

Tuesday 8 May 1945 was 'Victory in Europe' (VE) Day, and it marked the formal end of Hitler's war. With it came the end of six years of misery, suffering, courage and endurance across the world.

Celebrated on May 07th in Commonwealth countries and tomorrow, May 09th in the Russian Federation. While the war in the Pacific raged on for a further 3 Months.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/ ... y_01.shtml

I always make it a point to be Holland during this week. Veterans still continue to visit the places they liberated every year outside their own country, although they become less every year. When I speak to veterans many say that the beginning of May and the still more than warm welcomes of the locals,
is something they look forward to the whole year.

This weekend I had a conversation with a friend saying younger generations experience the war remembrance different. My generation still had family members that witnessed or underwent the horrors of the war themselves. Now, the new generation(s) has second hand stories, books, and films, which is a complete different experience.
My mother many times told the story how a Brit soldier gave her chocolate when her town was liberated and how happy she was. 1944-1945 was a hunger winter and children never had the sweet taste of chocolate. That British soldier still makes laughs on my mothers face so now and then when she thinks of it. The happiness of a piece of chocolate!
Although I strongly believe that we should not look back to the past, but forward, I also strongly believe that the horrors of the nazi's must never be forgotten, as it was an unique enterprise to industrialized extermination of whole peoples, Gypsies, Jews, gays etc. All have a right to exercise their religion and sexuality without the fear of presecution!

Great topic! My grandpa was is the war and never talked about it, and now he's gone. I've only ever experienced remembrance through documentaries etc.

Flying Dutchman wrote:I always make it a point to be Holland during this week. Veterans still continue to visit the places they liberated every year outside their own country, although they become less every year. When I speak to veterans many say that the beginning of May and the still more than warm welcomes of the locals,
is something they look forward to the whole year.

This weekend I had a conversation with a friend saying younger generations experience the war remembrance different. My generation still had family members that witnessed or underwent the horrors of the war themselves. Now, the new generation(s) has second hand stories, books, and films, which is a complete different experience.
My mother many times told the story how a Brit soldier gave her chocolate when her town was liberated and how happy she was. 1944-1945 was a hunger winter and children never had the sweet taste of chocolate. That British soldier still makes laughs on my mothers face so now and then when she thinks of it. The happiness of a piece of chocolate!
Although I strongly believe that we should not look back to the past, but forward, I also strongly believe that the horrors of the nazi's must never be forgotten, as it was an unique enterprise to industrialized extermination of whole peoples, Gypsies, Jews, gays etc. All have a right to exercise their religion and sexuality without the fear of presecution!

FD, you never fail to amaze me how sensitive you are. What a nice story about your mother. My grandad always talked fondly of the Dutch.

-- Sun May 08, 2011 3:17 pm --

Dillon wrote:Victory in Europe.

Tuesday 8 May 1945 was 'Victory in Europe' (VE) Day, and it marked the formal end of Hitler's war. With it came the end of six years of misery, suffering, courage and endurance across the world.

Celebrated on May 07th in Commonwealth countries and tomorrow, May 09th in the Russian Federation. While the war in the Pacific raged on for a further 3 Months.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/ ... y_01.shtml

Isn't it a shame we are losing some of the old Regiments through amalgimation? I note your link mentions the 8th Hussars, a very famous regiment, part of the Desert Rats and you can trace their history back to the Charge of the Light Brigade and Afghanistan in 1880.
My husband was in the 15/19th Hussars, they were amalgimated with the 13/18th Hussars to form the Light Dragoons.
My grandad was in the Durham Light Infantry and they were disbanded in the late 60's I think.
I suppose it's called progress.

Warmest congratulations to Americans and Brits. Dunkirk, the Battle for Britain, Nothern Convoys. Lend Lease and D-Day come to mind in this day.
600 000 Brits and Americans, who had been killed on the battlefield, made that war shorter. Immortal memory!

Red Chief wrote:Warmest congratulations to Americans and Brits. Dunkirk, the Battle for Britain, Nothern Convoys. Lend Lease and D-Day come to mind in this day.
600 000 Brits and Americans, who had been killed on the battlefield, made that war shorter. Immortal memory!

thanks RC, your congratulations are warmly received

And to be honest, I didn't give much thought to the number of Russian casualties of WW2 until a comment by RC recently made me look again, and out of a total of around 75 Million WW2 casualties, the USSR accounts for around 23,400,000 and if you include the USSR post war boundaries, the figure is around 10,000,000 servicemen and women and 16,600,000 civilians.

Dillon wrote:And to be honest, I didn't give much thought to the number of Russian casualties of WW2.

Why am I not surprised? Don't worry you are not the first Brit in DF who has made such a discovery. Anyway thanks for the interest.

Now you probably can understand why this holyday is one in the long row for you and more important than NY or Christmas for us.

Red Chief wrote:

Dillon wrote:And to be honest, I didn't give much thought to the number of Russian casualties of WW2.

Why am I not surprised? Don't worry you are not the first Brit in DF who has made such a discovery. Anyway thanks for the interest.

Now you probably can understand why this holyday is one in the long row for you and more important than NY or Christmas for us.

No one has ever disputed Hitler’s 2nd Eastern front, breaking the non-aggression agreement between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union that contained a secret protocol that aimed to return Eastern Europe to the pre–World War I Status Quo by dividing it between Germany and Russia! was one of many, “If only” scenarios that contributed to the outcome of WW2, I said earlier that I hadn’t given much thought to the NUMBER of Russian casualties of WW2, not that the success of the Russian forces didn’t contribute to the successful outcome of the war for the Allied forces.

The same can be said of many factors, of which I believe none is any more significant or important as any other, it was an allied force of many nations that performed as a whole that eventually overcame the evil of the Axis forces. This thread is about celebrating that outcome and the freedom we all enjoy in the World today and not about who thinks, who had the biggest stick.

Dillon wrote: No one has ever disputed Hitler’s 2nd Eastern front, breaking the non-aggression agreement between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union that contained a secret protocol that aimed to return Eastern Europe to the pre–World War I Status Quo by dividing it between Germany and Russia! was one of many, “If only” scenarios that contributed to the outcome of WW2, I said earlier that I hadn’t given much thought to the NUMBER of Russian casualties of WW2, not that the success of the Russian forces didn’t contribute to the successful outcome of the war for the Allied forces.

I don't think it's a good idea to remind this $hit in this holy day - the sence of tact has never been your strong trait. By the way, why did you forget the Munich collusion in 1938 and further division of Czechoslovakia (without even notification of the latter), where poor poor Poland, which so likes to play victim now, received the own stake? Remind me who signed this agreement, which make an unambiguous signal to Hitler for starting WWII.

As for Soviet contribution, they didn't contribute but won and would've won if there had been no allies at all. It was Brits, who contributed, and to be frank very little. 360 000 lives were less than during WWI but it's better anything than nothing.

Red Chief wrote:I don't think it's a good idea to remind this $hit in this holy day - the sence of tact has never been your strong trait. By the way, why did you forget the Munich collusion in 1938 and further division of Czechoslovakia (without even notification of the latter), where poor poor Poland, which so likes to play victim now, received the own stake? Remind me who signed this agreement, which make an unambiguous signal to Hitler for starting WWII.

As for Soviet contribution, they didn't contribute but won and would've won if there had been no allies at all. It was Brits, who contributed, and to be frank very little. 360 000 lives were less than during WWI but it's better anything than nothing.

Yes, it would appear that we British value human life a little more than soviets do, I don’t think it’s a good idea for you to contribute the absolute dross you do either but I have no control of that, as they say, ‘You can’t educate pork’

oink oink

Agree, sitting on the island all the war or swimming accross the English Channel without guns, I don't speak about hardware. Probably, Hitler got frightened by ugly English arses and made "the miracle".

Red Chief wrote:Agree, sitting on the island all the war or swimming accross the English Channel without guns, I don't speak about hardware. Probably, Hitler got frightened by ugly English arses and made "the miracle".

I’m surprised your lot can remember much of the war anyway with the amount of Vodka you needed to consume to dull the realities of life under Stalin, the drunken stupor of the surviving officers left alive after Stalin’s murderous Great Purge was probably the reason the Soviets lost so many to the Germans in the first place.

If the Russians didn't invade Finland then their casualty levels would have been lower as well. Totally sucks that Finland had to cede 11% of its territory and 30% of is economic assets in the peace deal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

Dillon,
Do you really care about the life under Stalin regime or Russian casualties? I don't think so. It's better to compare how many Germany troops were or how many Germans had been killed on the Estern Front with Western Front to estimate the contribution. Oh sorry there were no Western Front at all untill summer 1944...

It looks there are a lot of gaps left in your education. To be frank I don't have eniough time or wish to educate one more Brit.

The Western Front started in 1939 my friend while you lot were signing pacts with Hitler and Invading Ploand, Finland and the Baltics, holes in MY education?... Naaaah

Well, not that the average Russian was really supportive or happy to be invading other countries, more like they did what they were told or else!

Dillon wrote:The Western Front started in 1939 my friend while you lot were signing pacts with Hitler and Invading Ploand, Finland and the Baltics, holes in MY education?... Naaaah

and ended very promptly and inglorious... How about Germans?

kanelli wrote:Well, not that the average Russian was really supportive or happy to be invading other countries, more like they did what they were told or else!

Pretty much like every other country that "invades" other countries. I'm sure the "or else" in Russia has a much more broader consequence that being sent to the brig as a deserter. When you are in the military they own you. You are expected to do as you are told, whether you agree or disagree.

Red Chief wrote:and ended very promptly and inglorious... How about Germans?

Aah, now you want me to educate you? I don't think so tovarisch.

Dillon wrote:

Red Chief wrote:and ended very promptly and inglorious... How about Germans?

Aah, now you want me to educate you? I don't think so tovarisch.

Somebody lost. Well, let me educate you last time. Some Russian consonants don't exist in English laguage. Next time be carefull with Russian words to avoid getting confused, comrade.

Good luck with your education in History and Russian language.

That’s why it was spelt phonetically, look up phonetically!

Dillon wrote:That’s why it was spelt phonetically, look up phonetically!

As I told you it cannot be spelt phonetically. Learn Cyrilic alphabet. I am sure you can.


Just some hints for other interest of yours.
German military casualties By Front (Per R. Overmans)
Total dead:
Eastern Front until 12/31/44 2,742,909
Western Europe until 12/31/44 339,957

Red Chief wrote:

Dillon wrote:That’s why it was spelt phonetically, look up phonetically!

As I told you it cannot be spelt phonetically. Learn Cyrilic alphabet. I am sure you can.


Just some hints for other interest of yours.
German military casualties By Front (Per R. Overmans)
Total dead:
Eastern Front until 12/31/44 2,742,909
Western Europe until 12/31/44 339,957

It was -40 on the eastern Front and the German troops were wearing summer uniforms as they were unable to supply the right clothing due to the actions of the Allied bombing of their factories and supply chain infrastructure. The majority of casualties from the retreat from Leningrad were as a result of freezing to death rather than through Soviet Troop actions.

Napoleon suffered the same ignominy as Kesselring pointed out to Hitler in 1942 before he opened the Eastern Front. Hitler believed in Blitzkrieg and listened to his chiefs of staff, rather than sense.

Ref. Official minutes of meetings/Hitler 1936-1945 by Ian Kershaw ISBN 0-14-027239-9



Knight

It was -40 on the eastern Front and the German troops were wearing summer uniforms

Napoleon suffered the same ignominy as Kesselring pointed out to Hitler in 1942 before he opened the Eastern Front. Hitler believed in Blitzkrieg and listened to his chiefs of staff, rather than sense.

Lame excuses again. You contradicted yourself. From one hand, you wrote that everybody had known from the time of Napoleon that winter is very cold in Russia but each time didn't prepare right uniform.

It looks like Hitler decided that Vermacht could have distroyed the Soviet Union during a few weeks like he had done with Poland, France and BEF.

By the way, besides Leningrad there were battles of Moscow, Rzhev, Stalingrad, Kursk and many others.

There is some casualties of German troops in (only one) Battle of Stalingrad and further encirclement of them by Red Army from 23 August 1942 to 2 February 1943.

est. 750,000 killed, missing or wounded
91,000 captured
Aircraft: 900 (including 274 transports and 165 bombers used as transports)
Tank/artillery losses equivocal to Soviet losses[2]:122–123
Total: 841,000 casualties

Brits had not even seen so many Germans during all WWII.

Are you blaming the UK for Hitler turning on Russia?

I seem to recall a dispatch from Hitler in 1939 to the then British prime minister, Clement Atlee, subsequent to the invasion of Poland, stating that 'England was not Germany's natural enemy and that he sincerely hoped we would be allies against the tyranny and threat that was Russian Communism'

We all agree that Russia suffered at the hands of the Germans, but without the assistance of the Allies (not just UK but the US, France, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and even India, Russia would have had an even harder time?



Knight

A bit harder as I said in my first post. One more year probably we needed to have our panzer batallions on les Champs-Élysées. I'm just joking.

My confidence is based on the memoirs of the field marshal von Manstein "The stollen victories" where he estamated ratio between Russians and Germans in troops, artillery, tanks and aicrafts in March 1944 (before D-day) as 5 to 1.

Red Chief wrote:A bit harder as I said in my first post. One more year probably we needed to have our panzer batallions on les Champs-Élysées. I'm just joking.

My confidence is based on the memoirs of the field marshal von Manstein "The stollen victories" where he estamated ratio between Russians and Germans in troops, artillery, tanks and aicrafts in March 1944 (before D-day) as 5 to 1.

The successful outcome of the Battle of Britain providing a platform for the Allied 2nd Front in 1944 was mutually beneficial with, and for the successful outcome of the Eastern Front for the Russians. Stalin knew this as was documented from his meetings with Churchill and Roosevelt in Tehran in 1943. Read Second World War, by Martin Gilbert.

Without either, we would all be speaking German right now and Heinrich Himmler would have continued his extermination of the Untermenschen from the Slavic Countries, virtually unopposed, in his attempt to make the whole of the USSR available for the expansion of the Third Reich.

Mutually beneficial, without one, the other would fail. I don’t expect you to agree with this statement as your blind arrogance has prevailed in the past. Stalin did though in 1943, as did his Generals.

Dillon wrote: The successful outcome of the Battle of Britain providing a platform for the Allied 2nd Front in 1944 was mutually beneficial with, and for the successful outcome of the Eastern Front for the Russians. Stalin knew this as was documented from his meetings with Churchill and Roosevelt in Tehran in 1943. Read Second World War, by Martin Gilbert.

Without either, we would all be speaking German right now

Without 2nd Front in 1944 we would all be speaking Russian right now.


Dillon, I appreciate very much the second time that you remind about the victory day but your knowledge is very shallow I must say. I gave you facts and digits that you cannot refute but you continue insisting.

As for the "second front" Stalin was promiced it in 1942, when the situation on the Easern Front was definitely very critical, not in 1944, but as I said it was better to have anything than nothing. You see there is a huge difference between waiting for and realy having. I don't blame Brits. They were simply incapable to do, what they had promiced and only blew cheeks.

As for the connection between "Battle of Britain" and D-Day there was 4 years between those events and I cannot see any link at all. About D-DAY I blame mostly Americans, who can build enough boats to make this operation successfull. Probably you speak about barbaric bombing of German cities with historical value, like Dresden, Cologn, Hamburg... I guess Americans contribution was more than RAF's one. It was a deterrent with huge casualties of civilians. Oh... stop... I probably understand what you mean - "Battle of Britain" made possible the using England as an unsinkable aircraft carrier fo US aicrafts and as a supply chain for land operation. Yep, I can agree - you contibuted.

Red Chief wrote:Without 2nd Front in 1944 we would all be speaking Russian right now.

Aah, you mean as opposed to everyone today speaking English ?