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http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/World/2011022 ... te-110227/

Displaying any gestures or symbols of the old Nazi regime is considered a serious crime in modern-day Germany.

Over reaction and a violation of rights or darn good job ?

Just goes to show, learn the laws about the country you visit. What you can do, what you can't do, what is acceptable, what isn't, blah, blah, blah. Kinda like Dubai ya think?

The Germans are very very sensative to their Nazi past. There is absolutely no way you could get away with giving a salute like that and get away with it. It would equate to showing your bare bottom in Selfidges window in Emirates Mall.

Well, in Austria it is a crime to deny the Holocaust and also a crime (as featured recently in another thread) to insult religious figures.

Both can be argued to be limiting freedom of speech - but I'd argue that in both cases the law is drawing the line between acceptable 'freedom of speech' and speech that insults and offends.

The Austrians and Germans have drawn up laws which reflect their cultural sensitivities and I for one respect that. It would be hypocritical to say they are ok to ban Holocaust denial but not ban insults on religious figures, for example.

Cheers,
Shafique

What, you mean like cartoon versions of the Prophet Mohammed, May Peace be Upon Him?

shafique wrote:Well, in Austria it is a crime to deny the Holocaust and also a crime (as featured recently in another thread) to insult religious figures.

Both can be argued to be limiting freedom of speech - but I'd argue that in both cases the law is drawing the line between acceptable 'freedom of speech' and speech that insults and offends.

The Austrians and Germans have drawn up laws which reflect their cultural sensitivities and I for one respect that. It would be hypocritical to say they are ok to ban Holocaust denial but not ban insults on religious figures, for example.

Cheers,
Shafique

When confronted with masses of Hezbollah buddies giving the nazi salute, completely different feelings were expressed.

When confronted with masses of Hezbollah buddies giving the nazi salute, completely different feelings were expressed.

Sometimes you can mimick the same expressions that were once used for the same sort of persecution to remind them their good 'ol history as a lesson to reconsider..But people would never take lessons..

Just like you said to Betshmum "don't feel for me" but fell for them. Karma.

I'm pleased you are paying attention berrin.

Flying Dutchman wrote:When confronted with masses of Hezbollah buddies giving the nazi salute, completely different feelings were expressed.

I'm sorry FD but how is any of this relevant to the thread and what does this even mean ?

I'm pleased you are paying attention berrin.

What attention Miss'es? I hope you don't get the wrong end of the stick..

The Nazi salute is actually based on the Roman salute, and indeed Hezbollah in Lebanon use this salute - they say primarily to distinguish them from the 'Western' saluting nations - but I also suspect to wind up the Israelis (remember that Hezbollah were formed as a resistance movement after Israel invaded Lebanon).

The point I made in my post above was that in German and Austria, the Roman/Nazi salute is banned, and in Austria the laws forbid both Holocaust denial and insulting religious figures. This is part of their cultural heritage.

When the Nazis were ruling Germany, some American schoolkids were using the Roman salute - also known as the Bellamy salute:


It wasn't illegal in the US then (nor was it strictly associated with Hitler), but now these kids would be in trouble if they saluted this way in Austria.

Cheers,
Shafique

It should certainly be interesting to see if the Koran is ever banned in the Netherlands as proposed by Geert Wilders.

In the documentary that was posted recently, Geert asked if we ban Mein Kampf, then why not also extend this to the Koran, claiming the Koran contains hate speech and passages of incitement similar to Hitler's book.

What's telling, is that no one who supports restrictions on free speech from the Left or Muslim fanatic side is willing to engage Geert's points. Perhaps they feel embarrassment that their views are identical to Geert's?

But, logically speaking, I think he's right. I will also say that regardless of whether or not the Koran is actually banned - as if that were likely - Geert is intentionally or unintentionally highlighting the slippery slope of a society that bans free speech.

Arresting someone over an arm gesture seems equally ridiculous to me. In a civilized world, prisons and jails are for actual criminals - thieves, rapists, home invaders, murderers. I certainly do not support anyone who believes free speech should be restricted and relies on emotion and even fallacy to make his or her point.

shafique wrote:When the Nazis were ruling Germany, some American schoolkids were using the Roman salute - also known as the Bellamy salute:


It wasn't illegal in the US then (nor was it strictly associated with Hitler), but now these kids would be in trouble if they saluted this way in Austria.

Cheers,
Shafique

Omitting facts Professor? Shame on you. A BIG shame on you. Your post, as most of them are, is extremely flawed, not to mention a few lies thrown in and this one was very obvious. Why do you have to go to such extremes??? This is why people can't have a healthy debate with you because your posts tend to be tinged with disease.

Francis Bellemy (1855-1931) is the author of the "Pledge of Allegiance" and the creator of the salute - in 1982, long before Hitler's time. The salute was introduced to schools BEFORE Hitler's time. It was never, ever associated with Hilter. It was a symbol of one's loyalty by "pledging their allegiance" to the flag of the United States. Because it was a symbol of loyalty and one's "pledge of allegiance" to the flag and country Hilter adopted the salute.

On December 22, 1942 Congress officially amended the Flag Code, the main purpose was to change the salute. The change in salute was made by President Franklin D. Roosevelt - which continues to this day - hand-over-hear. The change in the salute was due to the similarities of the salute by Hitler.

Shame on you. I find your post extremely offensive, as an American, with your twisted portrayal of the Bellemy salute. Your statement

(nor was it strictly associated with Hitler)

implies that it was associated to Hilter to a degree.

Please don't come back at me "justifying" your facts as there is no way you are going to convince me otherwise. You have some serious issues.

I think you've offended Bora, Shafique. Now if you were the English gent you claim, you would apologise to her. Let's see if you are man enough.

-- Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:06 am --

Berrin wrote:

I'm pleased you are paying attention berrin.

What attention Miss'es? I hope you don't get the wrong end of the stick..

Miss'es? What end of the stick are you refering to?

Just like you said to Betshmum "don't feel for me" but fell for them. Karma

I was refering to the above. I was pleased you didn't miss it.

Thanks to everyone for understanding exactly the point I was making - a photo of people using the Nazi/Roman/Bellamy salute does not automatically make someone a Nazi sympathizer (in itself).

However, where it is illegal to give such a salute (such as Austria), because of that country's cultural sensitivities and background - then there is nothing wrong for the Austrians/Germans etc to lock up people callous/stupid/silly enough to give the salute there.

I similarly don't think it is wrong for them to prosecute others who choose to break Austrian laws about insulting religious leaders.

As for my post with the photo American schoolkids - everything written there was factual and wasn't misleading. Manufacturing issues to be offended about is not something I can reasonably be asked to control.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:As for my post with the photo American schoolkids - everything written there was factual and wasn't misleading. Manufacturing issues to be offended about is not something I can reasonably be asked to control.

Cheers,
Shafique

From Wikipedia:

Swearing of the Pledge is accompanied by a salute. An early version of the salute, adopted in 1892, was known as the Bellamy salute. It started with the hand outstretched toward the flag, palm down, and ended with the palm up. Because of the similarity between the Bellamy salute and the Nazi salute, developed later, President Franklin D. Roosevelt instituted the hand-over-the-heart gesture as the salute to be rendered by civilians during the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem in the United States, instead of the Bellamy salute. Removal of the Bellamy salute occurred on December 22, 1942, when Congress amended the Flag Code language first passed into law on June 22, 1942.[12]

On June 22, 1942, the Code became Public Law 77-623; chapter 435.[13] Little had changed in the code since the Flag Day 1924 Conference. The most notable change was the removal of the Bellamy salute due to its similarities to the Hitler salute.[14]

I will correct myself on one point: the salute was the creation of John Upham. The salute was used by civilians when pledging allegiance. All military branches used another form of salute when pledging allegiance.

FFS, anyone can google bellemy salute and find the truth (see above quotes I inserted). Why don't you come up with your own search engine and call it "Shafsh*t? You load it with all your theories, facts, etc. Make for interesting reading - NOT!!!!

I'm going to end this here Shaf as I feel that there is a bit of a trap to wind me up so that I can find myself under the hammer. Next move: to add you as a "foe".

Have a good day.

^^ That one was worth two smileys

Not man enough to apologise for causing offense, I thought so Shafique

shafique wrote:When the Nazis were ruling Germany, some American schoolkids were using the Roman salute - also known as the Bellamy salute:

Nazis were indeed ruling Germany and WWII was well underway before the salute used by these American schoolkids was banned in the US.

shafique wrote:It wasn't illegal in the US then (nor was it strictly associated with Hitler), but now these kids would be in trouble if they saluted this way in Austria.

As Bora's wiki quotes confirm - the salute wasn't illegal when the American schoolkids were pictured giving the salute. Certainly in Germany and Europe, the salute was associated with fascists in the mid to late 30s onwards (Mussolini also used the salute, you'll recall) - but in the States these schoolkids were giving the salute every morning.

I didn't call the salute 'a nazi salute' but quite correctly labelled it "the Roman salute - also known as the Bellamy salute".


As I said, if people choose to manufacture issues to be insulted by - I can't reasonably be expected to do much about that. I can only control what I write, not what others imagine.

What I wrote was not misleading or ambiguous - but quite factual. Read it again.

Cheers,
Shafique

I can only control what I write.

Why don't you then?

Shaf, where in the quotee does it say anything about it being legal or illegal? Those were YOUR words, not anything in the quote. You can rant all you want to justify your MAJOR FAIL. You really can't bear being outed for what you are when someone can put forth facts, and you can't.

Apparently your fingers and what you write are controlled by your thought process, which appears to be driven by some kind of disorder.

Bora Bora wrote:Shaf, where in the quotee does it say anything about it being legal or illegal?

In two places in the article, actually - and the second quote was posted in the OP above.

Place number one, paragraph 4:

The Canadian tourist risks being formally charged with making a forbidden gesture, which could result in him being jailed for up to six months.

Nazi salute, illegal. Max jail sentence 6 months.

And repetition for emphasis (presumably for those still in denial/doubt) in paragraph 6:

Displaying any gestures or symbols of the old Nazi regime is considered a serious crime in modern-day Germany.

Not only a crime, but a SERIOUS crime.

QED. Happy?

Now, given my post was completely factual - what are you upset about? The facts, or the fact that I posted the facts?

Cheers,
Shafique

What part don't you understand?>

Your words:

It wasn't illegal in the US then (nor was it strictly associated with Hitler), but now these kids would be in trouble if they saluted this way in Austria.

A pathological liar is someone whose behavior is that of habitual and complusive lying, and will lie even it it isn't necessary, and will continue to lie to cover a lie, as well as generally believing their own lies. When caught in their lies they tend to disregard the fact that they lied.

Now, I'm not saying your are a pathological liar, but I find the similarities between the definition and your posts very interesting.

I'm not sure why you are confused with my statement of fact.

I was contrasting the fact that whilst it is illegal to give the salute in Germany (but I typed Austria) today, when the photo of the kids was taken it was not an illegal act nor was the Bellamy salute associated with Nazism/fascism.

Facts, maam - nothing but the facts.

Cheers,
Shafique