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dattaswami · Feb 04, 2011

God coming in human form, is it possible and if so, His identity....???

My opinion:

The recognition of human incarnation should be done by the qualities of the spiritual knowledge preached by Him. The Veda gives three adjectives to such divine spiritual knowledge. The first is ‘Truth’ (Satyam Jnanam), the second is ‘Infinite’ (Anantam Brahma) and the third is ‘Excellent’ (Prajnanam Brahma). The true, infinite and excellent knowledge indicates the Lord.

The knowledge is true because the Lord need not tell lies to please the people. The human preachers tell lies to please the people and get some favor from them. The Lord has no such necessity. In fact, all the human beings are at the mercy of the Lord to get some favor from Him. Hence, the Lord will always speak the truth whether you like it or not. Generally, truth always causes disliking. The knowledge is infinite because the Lord will effectively clear the doubts of infinite number of devotees and hence, the knowledge becomes infinite.

The true concept is always simple and brief. But, the doubts on it are many. Hence, the simple true knowledge becomes infinite, when it takes the form of clarifications given to several corners. The knowledge is excellent because the presentation of knowledge by the Lord is simply tremendous. The way of explanation of the concept is impossible to any other human being. Therefore, you have to recognize the Lord by such spiritual knowledge alone. Miracles should not be taken as signs of the Lord because even the demons blessed by the Lord exhibit such miracles. Of course, the miracles are only due to the power of the Lord only. But, the Lord grants such powers to the devotees.
The only power that cannot be transferred to anybody is the true infinite and excellent spiritual knowledge. The devotees are always after the powers and not after such knowledge. Hence, you need not blame the Lord for not transferring such knowledge to a devotee.
www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

shafique · Feb 04, 2011

Datta - this post is very similar to at least two previous threads with 'human form' in the title. Perhaps it is better to post this one in one of these threads - especially the ones where we've discussed this aspect before.

(Also, please do not over-look the question I asked you about Hindu scriptures which talk about eating Beef - in the past)

Your definition of 'god in human form' is actually very close to the Judaeo-Christian concept of a Prophet - a human who acts according to God's instructions and therefore reflects the divine - without actually being Divine.

In Islam, the analogy of the sun and moon is sometimes used to explain this. The moon is bright and gives light, but it does so only by virtue of reflecting the light coming from the sun. It is a pale substitute for the sun, but does provide light and totally relies on the sun.

Cheers,
Shafique

dattaswami · Feb 04, 2011

shafique wrote:(Also, please do not over-look the question I asked you about Hindu scriptures which talk about eating Beef - in the past)

First of all the scriptures you refer is written in sanskrit. Are you a sanskrit scholar? The interpreatation you give in the post as others said, how can it be correct ?

People want to justify their killing for eating, by certain means and ways, some how to get others fooled by their tricks! They want to justfy killing! By misinterpretation.

-- Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:46 am --

shafique wrote:Your definition of 'god in human form' is actually very close to the Judaeo-Christian concept of a Prophet - a human who acts according to God's instructions and therefore reflects the divine - without actually being Divine.

If the spiritual knowledge is perfect and complete, the devotion and practice are the spontaneous subsequent steps for which there is no need of any effort. If the practice is perfect and complete, the fruit is spontaneous. Therefore, all the efforts should be put only to gain the perfect and complete spiritual knowledge. Hence, Shankara told that knowledge alone can achieve fruit (Jnanadevatu…). The perfect and complete spiritual knowledge is possible only from God. But God is unimaginable and therefore to give this perfect and complete knowledge, the unimaginable God comes down in human form.

For this purpose, which is most important, God will never enter inert medium. The human form means the soul or awareness associated with the human body. Whenever God enters this world the soul is always an associated medium with Him. You should not say that the soul or awareness alone is the associated medium. If you say like that, the soul exists in birds and animals also and these birds and animals cannot give the spiritual knowledge to humanity. Therefore, the soul should mean the soul existing in human body only.

shafique · Feb 04, 2011

dattaswami wrote:
shafique wrote:(Also, please do not over-look the question I asked you about Hindu scriptures which talk about eating Beef - in the past)

First of all the scriptures you refer is written in sanskrit. Are you a sanskrit scholar? The interpreatation you give in the post as others said, how can it be correct ?

No, I don't read sanskrit.

I didn't say I believe the quotes are accurate, I asked YOU whether these were authentic - and note that references also include the opinions of scholars. I have no reason to believe that these references AREN'T authentic - but I'd like your opinion. Can you quote the sanskrit and your translation of these references? :

shafique wrote:Datta - could you comment on these references I found. Are they authentic?

They quote Hindu scriptures on the subject of eating meat:
Manusmriti (Chapter 5 / Verse 30) says, “It is not sinful to eat meat of eatable animals, for Brahma has created both the eaters and the eatables.”

Manusmriti (5 / 35) states: When a man who is properly engaged in a ritual does not eat meat, after his death he will become a sacrificial animal during twenty-one rebirths.

Maharishi Yagyavalkya says in Shatpath Brahmin (3/1/2/21) that, “I eat beef because it is very soft and delicious.”
Apastamb Grihsutram (1/3/10) says, “The cow should be slaughtered on the arrival of a guest, on the occasion of ‘Shraddha’ of ancestors and on the occasion of a marriage.”
Rigveda (10/85/13) declares, “On the occasion of a girl’s marriage oxen and cows are slaughtered.”
Rigveda (6/17/1) states that “Indra used to eat the meat of cow, calf, horse and buffalo.”
Vashistha Dharmasutra (11/34) writes, “If a Brahmin refuses to eat the meat offered to him on the occasion of ‘Shraddha’ or worship, he goes to hell.”

Also, comments of some great scholars of Hinduism are also worth noting:
· Hinduism’s greatest propagator Swami Vivekanand said thus: “You will be surprised to know that according to ancient Hindu rites and rituals, a man cannot be a good Hindu who does not eat beef”. (The Complete Works of Swami Vivekanand, vol.3, p. 536).
· Mukandilal writes in his book ‘Cow Slaughter – Horns of a Dilemma’, page 18: “In ancient India, cow-slaughter was considered auspicious on the occasions of some ceremonies. Bride and groom used to sit on the hide of a red ox in front of the ‘Vedi’ (alter).”
· A renowned scholar of scriptures Dr. Pandurang Vaman Kane says, “Bajsancyi Samhita sanctifies beef-eating because of its purity”. (Dharmashastra Vichar Marathi, page 180)
· Adi Shankaracharya’ commentary on Brihdaranyakopanishad 6/4/18 says : ‘Odan’ (rice) mixed with meat is called ‘Mansodan’. On being asked whose meat it should be, he answers ‘Uksha’. ‘Uksha’ is used for an ox, which is capable to produce semen.
· The book ‘The History and Culture of the Indian People’, published by Bhartiya Vidya Bhawan, Bombay and edited by renowned historian R.C.Majumdar (Vol.2, page 578) says: “this is said in the Mahabharat that King Rantidev used to kill two thousand other animals in addition to two thousand cows daily in order to give their meat in charity”.

http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15 ... 200236.htm

zubber · Feb 04, 2011

dattaswami wrote:God coming in human form, is it possible and if so, His identity....???

Now if your god comes down as a woman with huge knockers, I'd like to meet her

dattaswami · Feb 04, 2011

shafique wrote:In Islam, the analogy of the sun and moon is sometimes used to explain this. The moon is bright and gives light, but it does so only by virtue of reflecting the light coming from the sun. It is a pale substitute for the sun, but does provide light and totally relies on the sun.

Cheers,
Shafique

God always selects a liberated soul with the gross body for becoming the human incarnation. God will not enter the human gross body directly without the liberated soul. In such case, the chance for the liberated soul to enjoy the closest association of God in a single body is lost. The credit of the liberated soul being treated as God (Advaita) is also not accomplished. Especially, when God preaches the exceptional spiritual knowledge like Gita, the liberated soul is treated as the generator of such exceptional knowledge. Apart from this, God has an advantage also through the association of the liberated soul. God cannot act as a real ignorant person, since the ignorance cannot cover Him completely. Even the thickest cloud cannot retain its original intensity of darkness by covering the bright Sun. Similarly, when the ignorance covers God, it cannot retain its original state of ignorance and becomes weak.

Hence, God likes the association of a liberated soul, which can attain the inherent ignorance of a soul in doing the activities of ignorance. It is like a dupe acting on behalf of the hero in disguise of hero in cinema shooting. Instead of God acting like an ignorant soul, it will be better if a really ignorant soul acts on behalf of God in disguise. Even though the liberated soul is enlightened and is devoid of ignorance, it can attain its inherent state of ignorance in a natural way whenever it is required. It is easy for an illuminated cloud to regain its darkness than the really bright Sun covered by cloud.

Due to close association with the ignorant soul, God appears to be really ignorant through the soul and thus God can test the real faith of devotees. God takes the credit of the ignorant actions of the associated liberated soul and in turn the liberated soul takes the credit of God’s wonderful activities. Thus, the purpose of God as well as the ambition of the soul is accomplished by this mutual exchange. This is the main reason of the association of God with the selected liberated soul in the human incarnation as per Veda (Dvaa suparnaa…..). The ambition of God to taste the real ignorance and the ambition of the soul to taste the real divinity are simultaneously accomplished.

shafique · Feb 04, 2011

^and the references to beef?

Cheers,
Shafique

dattaswami · Feb 04, 2011

shafique wrote:^and the references to beef?

Cheers,
Shafique

Suppose I say that the purpose of creating the man is also to supply the food to tigers, lions, man-eating hunters in the forests, etc., how do you feel? Why don’t you allow tigers and lions to freely come to villages and towns and have their food? A soul is being punished through these births of fish etc., A bird, fish,etc., does not store any thing for future. Thus the soul is in the training of decreasing its selfish behaviour. A sinner who amasses the wealth of others and goes on storing for selfish purpose is born as fish etc., By leading a life of a fish, which does not store even food for tomorrow, the soul is learning the self-less attitude. Punishment is only meant for change. Thus the births of fish etc., is for a particular purpose of its soul in the spiritual path. God is the teaher who punishes all these souls, which are His students. If you view God in this angle, you will understand God as the kindest teacher.

A sinner who stores the wealth and does not donate to others, gets the birth of a plant or tree. The plant or tree stores the excess earned food in the form of fruits and is forcibly made to donate these fruits to the living beings. Thus a soul in a tree is forced to learn sacrifice, which is the most essential part of the spiritual effort. Thus God is leading all the souls towards the highest spiritual goal. If you understand this real purpose, you will not dream of eating those living beings. Will you kill your classmate who is learning? This whole world is a single classroom with the single teacher who is ‘Guru Datta’, meaning the Lord given to this world in the form of a teacher. Even in the green plant a soul exists and therefore should not be cut. From this point of view, the Lord came in the human forms like Bhuddha and Mahavir Jain and preached the non-voilence as the highest duty of a human being. The Hindu Dharma Sashtra (Manu Smrithi) clearly condemns such killing (‘Ahimsa Paramodharmah’).

shafique · Feb 04, 2011

^sorry Datta - but what has your reply got to do with the references from Hindu scriptures saying that it is ok to eat beef?

Let me ask it a different way - if those references are accurate, who and when was it decided to stop eating beef?

Cheers,
Shafique

dattaswami · Feb 05, 2011

shafique wrote:^sorry Datta - but what has your reply got to do with the references from Hindu scriptures saying that it is ok to eat beef?

Let me ask it a different way - if those references are accurate, who and when was it decided to stop eating beef?

Cheers,
Shafique

Generally people misinterpret the scriptures to suit their sinful lifstyle. Even it is Hindu, Christain, or Islam or any other religions person, if one kill any living creature for eating, God will punish them for killing. God is universal and He is not limited to any particular religion or caste, nation etc.

Realization is the process of effort to change the soul and reformation is the actual change of the soul. If the soul is reformed, the proof for it is that the sin is not practically repeated. If this result is achieved, there is no need of punishment. The punishment is not for the sake of past sin, since past is past. The punishment is only to change the soul so that in future the sin is not repeated.

The day you have stopped repeating the sin, you are excused by God for the past sin. This is the only way to stop the punishment of sin, which is in the form of problems of life. If you have stopped all the sins, your life will be the happiest and for this you need not pray even God. Prayer to God will not cancel even the trace of the sin.

Ravana prayed Lord Shiva in several ways, but, he could not escape the punishment of his sin. If you are committing sin, you are violating the word of God and going against the will of God. God wants you not to commit any sin. His word is the ethical scripture, which says that you should not commit any sin. The sin will disturb the balance of the society since it hurts the co-living beings.

shafique · Feb 05, 2011

^Thanks, I do understand that people mis-interpret scripture. However, this general statement does not address the references to eating beef provided.

May I ask again - when and who finally decided that eating beef would no longer be allowed in Hinduism? The earlier scriptures are quite clear - beef was not only eaten, but was recommended to be eaten.

Cheers,
Shafique

Chocoholic · Feb 05, 2011

zubber wrote:
dattaswami wrote:God coming in human form, is it possible and if so, His identity....???

Now if your god comes down as a woman with huge knockers, I'd like to meet her

LOL I hate the act that God and all the prophets blah blah blah are always MEN, do they feel that inferior that they have to do that to keep women in their place?

All a big joke if you ask me.What if the higher bing is some 3 headed alien, with bulging eyes and suckers for hands and feet?

dattaswami · Feb 05, 2011

shafique wrote:^Thanks, I do understand that people mis-interpret scripture. However, this general statement does not address the references to eating beef provided.

May I ask again - when and who finally decided that eating beef would no longer be allowed in Hinduism? The earlier scriptures are quite clear - beef was not only eaten, but was recommended to be eaten.

Cheers,
Shafique

God is not responsible for the eating behaviour of the people in this world. Some are become non-veg, and they continously kill and eat the animals. Such habit has become deep rooted in them. Then if God says stop completely right now the eating of meat, people cannot do it and will not do it. FOr example for a addicted drunkard or a chain smoker, it is very difficult to stop the habit all on a sudden. Therefore we will ask him to slowly reduce the smoking of cigerate in number. Like this due to the increased habit of people, God also ask when some body kill an animal atleast offer it to God before eating, so that even while killing such an animal alteast God's name is remembered. Even otherwise that fellow is going to kill for eating, even if millions of adivice is given, he is not going to change and not going to stop killing the animal. He will not change all on a sudden. When such people who are majority in number existing, God preached in such a way that step by step such activity should be controlled and finally elimniated. Hence God preached in step by step elimination and not total negation at the first step.... This the essence of the scriptures that you have quoted....

Aleast God is remembered in those cruel killnig acitivity. When somebody kill a living being, the living being undergoes tremendos agony and pain... remeber it and think about it before killing...You can eat naturally dead animal...but do not kill for eating...it is sin.. slowly step by step you avoid it... over a long period of time....

Chocoholic · Feb 05, 2011

I think you posted in the wrong thread!

dattaswami · Feb 05, 2011

Chocoholic wrote:I think you posted in the wrong thread!

I was replying to Mr. Shafique comments..

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