Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

Interesting article. Seems that those conducting the poll made an effort to balance it.

Some 10,000 people were questioned, but pollsters then gauged opinions from a further 5,000 ethnic minority members and 1,200 Muslims before reaching their conclusions.

The survey found that 78 per cent of the population want to see immigration cut back. A quarter (24 per cent) would like to see immigration reduced a little, while 54 per cent said they wanted it cut ‘a lot’. Fewer than one in five – 19 per cent – said levels should stay the same. Only three people in 100 thought there should be an increase.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1BCEcsWUq

I don't know Bora, Britain must be filled with racists!

Interesting article in the Daily Mail. The study does look to be representative.

The comment in it is from a right-wing, anti-Immigration body - migrationwatch - that is notorious for hyping the issue of immigration.

The top two comments on the page as of posting are:

While Britain does need to take a look at our current immigration laws, I'm willing to hedge my bets and say that there's a good chance four in five Britons don't have a clue what the stats and figures are are merely react to what they read in the trash press ! For 50 odd years now the "they come over here and take all our jobs" line has been the first thing any self respecting workshy layabout learns to roll out when faced with, heaven forbid, getting a job. This shouldn't be about immigration, this should be about ANYONE who takes but gives little or nothing back.
- Iain, Glasgow, 14/1/2011 08:33

And

It would have been 5 in 5, but the other 1 in 5 are all immigrants now anyway.
- Leroy Gibbs, Reading, Berks, 14/1/2011 08:32

Both make excellent points, I think.

Cheers,
Shafique

For any poll to be published, certain criteria have to be met. Unless one can get a copy of the actual results this poll is definitely a reflection of the general population, hence being most probably true.

4GetMeNot wrote:I don't know Bora, Britain must be filled with racists!

Not so hon. Apparently it has its fill of immigrants. Did you see the picture of the next batch due to arrive from across the border? I'm sure that Britain will be far more generous that the French. Possibly the French have a plan and its working???

I wonder if there is a generational gap in the UK on immigration and race issues? Or perhaps a gap between urban and rural folk? I don't know - just thinking out loud here.

On the one hand there are estates in the UK where there are a great number of mixed race couples (and the proverbial 'brown' child) - where Brit men who are black are going out with Brit women who are caucausian (white). (Seen with my own two eyes, and also seen documentaries about this.)

There's also the urban phenomenon where children in schools are growing up in a multi-cultural environment and get to know about other cultures - from Divali to Eid, from goulash to paella to goat curries to vindaloos.

When the proverbial Polish plumbers and builders started coming over in great numbers, the news stories always seemed to have either a black or asian Brit (speaking in a regional accent - Brum or Mancunian or Cockney, typically) moaning about 'them lot' coming over here taking our jobs. They were doing it with a straight face too!

I'm sure the media searched out these guys and purposely put them on screen.

Heck, even the BNP is trying to get Sikhs and Hindus to join them.. that's so funny and tragic (given the history of Southall riots etc).

But as polls go - remember that over in the states the polls show that an INCREASING number of people believe Obama is a Muslim (used to be 11% now up to 18%). This is according to Pew polls - but I guess the saving grace is 4 out of 5 Americans (as in USA citizens) do believe in the fact Obama is not a Muslim. So when 1 in 5 are willing to believe something that is so patently false - it sort of makes sense that the majority polled on an issue such as immigration may be basing their views on media spin rather than reality (as the first commentator I quoted above thougt).

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/T ... s-a-Muslim

Cheers,
Shafique

Intresting

The pollsters found no sign that people felt their local areas were becoming more uneasy and divided. They said 85 per cent thought their neighbourhood was ‘cohesive’ and a place where people from different backgrounds got on well together.

Very encouraging indeed and sort of backs up my idea, that the majority really have no problems with people of different backgrounds. Its just those few unsavoury louts like the BNP, EDL, Islam4uk etc etc and their elk that have the issues and more often then not are exaggerated.

However, 22 per cent thought they would get worse treatment from public services because of their race. This proportion is double the size of the ethnic minority population, which is around 10 per cent of the population.

Not so encoraging on the other hand.

Generally speaking in regards to the UK is an influx of 200,000 people per year too much ? And keeping in mind not all of them are going to stay of become permanent residents or citizens. Like It says even students are counted in these stats, most probably other workers who come in on short year or two long projects etc etc.

Shaf, the claim that Obama is a Muslim has yet to be proven. It's like taking a poll - do you believe that there is life after death?

As for the immigration - there is living proof of that. I would assume that the poll refers to those who legally immigrated, and does not include illegals who go on visas and overstay or get into the country without documents.

Black men dating white women is nothing new, is common, and for the most part accepted in the US - generally in the big cities, not rural towns. This also includes inter-racial dating and marriages.

Not to side track the discussion, I was just wondering. I've heard this Obama is muslim thing for so long now, got me wondering, what if he was, so what ? Not that I am saying he is but just saying if he was, so what exactly ? Many still believe he is, even so. What difference does that make ?

desertdudeshj wrote:Not to side track the discussion, I was just wondering. I've heard this Obama is muslim thing for so long now, got me wondering, what if he was, so what ? Not that I am saying he is but just saying if he was, so what exactly ? Many still believe he is, even so. What difference does that make ?

Well you did sidetrack the discussion!!! Since you acknowledge it, please split your post into a new thread. It is totally irrelevant to the topic.

desertdudeshj wrote:Not to side track the discussion, I was just wondering. I've heard this Obama is muslim thing for so long now, got me wondering, what if he was, so what ? Not that I am saying he is but just saying if he was, so what exactly ? Many still believe he is, even so. What difference does that make ?

You need to ask the surviving relatives of victims of 9/11.

-- Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:51 pm --

desertdudeshj wrote:Intresting

The pollsters found no sign that people felt their local areas were becoming more uneasy and divided. They said 85 per cent thought their neighbourhood was ‘cohesive’ and a place where people from different backgrounds got on well together.

Very encouraging indeed and sort of backs up my idea, that the majority really have no problems with people of different backgrounds. Its just those few unsavoury louts like the BNP, EDL, Islam4uk etc etc and their elk that have the issues and more often then not are exaggerated.

However, 22 per cent thought they would get worse treatment from public services because of their race. This proportion is double the size of the ethnic minority population, which is around 10 per cent of the population.

Not so encoraging on the other hand.

Generally speaking in regards to the UK is an influx of 200,000 people per year too much ? And keeping in mind not all of them are going to stay of become permanent residents or citizens. Like It says even students are counted in these stats, most probably other workers who come in on short year or two long projects etc etc.

Dare I ask DDS, have you ever been to the UK? I'm surprised that you claim to know so much about my country, I haven't the faintest idea what goes on in yours. I'm just not interested. Why does it bother you what the majority of British people think anyway?

The thread should perhaps be split into a Obama is Muslim or not thread.

Bora Bora wrote:Shaf, the claim that Obama is a Muslim has yet to be proven. It's like taking a poll - do you believe that there is life after death?

You've really lost me there.

Either Obama is a Muslim or he is not. He says he is a Christian. The Christian Monitor says he is a Christian:

Where are Americans getting their information about Obama’s religion? We ask that because, on this subject, a substantial and growing number of them are wrong. (Obama is Christian. We’ll say that up front, in case some of you are hazy on this point yourselves.)

(same link as above).

One in 5 of the people Obama leads thinks he is not a Christian according to the polls.


///

Bora Bora wrote:As for the immigration - there is living proof of that. I would assume that the poll refers to those who legally immigrated, and does not include illegals who go on visas and overstay or get into the country without documents.

Err, no - the polls are asking what people's views on immigration are - not whether their views reflect reality concerning immigration into the UK (the point the first commentator was making).

I think this is directly analagous to those who 'believe' Obama is Muslim - i.e. believing in something that is not based on actual evidence.

Bora Bora wrote:Black men dating white women is nothing new, is common, and for the most part accepted in the US - generally in the big cities, not rural towns. This also includes inter-racial dating and marriages.

Yes - I perhaps didn't get my point across (apologies for that).

Race and immigration aren't necessarily the same issue for most Brits. The anger against white European immigrants shows that the backlash against immigration it is not necessarily a race issue - and the bits DDS quoted above are in line with this. Indeed, if you read migrationwatch, they are at pains to point out that they aren't racist (but then again, so do the English Defence League and the BNP!).

My point is that most Brits would be apalled to be labelled racist these days - and would view the immigration issue as not an issue of colour, but rather of jobs and services.

Cheers,
Shafique

zubber wrote:For any poll to be published, certain criteria have to be met. Unless one can get a copy of the actual results this poll is definitely a reflection of the general population, hence being most probably true.

Not probably Zubber, most definately. You see the majority of white British don't have a problem with people coming to the UK and contributing to society, but most just want our passport and generous benefit system. A lot of immigrants don't even want to intergrate and that's why we end up with towns like Southall. You may not know Southall, it is an area on the outskirts of London. Years ago when I lived in Ruislip (a nice area) I had cause to go through Southall (not a nice area) on a number of occasions. The immigrants had their own shops, their own banks, travel agents,money transfer outlets, clothes shops etc. There was nothing English about it at all. It had been turned into a slum. It's the same with a lot of areas, take Whitechapel in the east end, what a dump. It's the same with a lot of areas of our cities, like Manchester.
It's the foreigners who will deny any report of what British people really think. They just can't stomach the fact that we are sick and tired of people turning up and expecting us to dish it all out to them on a plate. Most of the pakistanis hate our guts anyway. They haven't even got the good grace to be grateful for what they get given. They are usually trying to hatch some sort of plan behind closed doors somewhere.

^Southall is now quite famous around the world, and also Green Street in East London. I grew up in Northolt - not too far from Southall - and know Ruislip quite well, spent many an enjoyable afternoon at the lido. Nowadays it has it's fair share of millionaires and Bentleys - as well as those less materially well off.

I also lived in North London - not too far from Golders Green and Stamford Hill - both with high concentrations of Jewish Londoners, and not too far from Green Lanes where Turkish Londoners also lived (and among them were Cypriots - Greek and Turkish). Edgeware road is full of Arab shops and restaurants, and of course China town. Where my house is now, Surrey - New Malden is down the road and is full of South Korean shops, restaurants and businesses - and a large concentration of South Koreans. West Indian areas are well known, as are the Bangladeshi areas. The Irish are concentrated in certain areas (Kentish Town, for example) and I'm sure that Poles have their favoured parts of London - I saw a smattering of Polish shops when I was last in London.

All, except the very recent arrivals, are British, heck even English - and England is the richer for it. At least that is what the majority of fellow English people believe - in my experience.

Cheers,
Shafique

zubber wrote:For any poll to be published, certain criteria have to be met. Unless one can get a copy of the actual results this poll is definitely a reflection of the general population, hence being most probably true.

Zubber, if you ever get to England, avoid London. It's full of foreigners.

LOL and you were doing so well with your current reincarnation ! Like I said, maybe the third times the charm, eh ?

Well as to your other question, I have intrests in a lot of countries and a of lot things, not just yours. I hope I didn't break any hearts with you thinking I only had intrest in just your country, but hey thats life. You'll survive

Anywhoo, back on topic what you're stating is entirely in contrast of what the polls say. That 85% of the majority really have no issues i.e bussiness as usual and normal life goes on. Guess you fall in that 25% minority.

P.S : I've never claimed to know a lot about your country, thats something you've managed to come up with all on your own or maybe your just surprised regular people know more than just wine and looking out of the window at sheep and snow

desertdudeshj wrote:LOL and you were doing so well with your current reincarnation ! Like I said, maybe the third times the charm, eh ?

Well as to your other question, I have intrests in a lot of countries and a of lot things, not just yours. I hope I didn't break any hearts with you thinking I only had intrest in just your country, but hey thats life. You'll survive

Anywhoo, back on topic what you're stating is entirely in contrast of what the polls say. That 85% of the majority really have no issues i.e bussiness as usual and normal life goes on. Guess you fall in that 25% minority.

P.S : I've never claimed to know a lot about your country, thats something you've managed to come up with all on your own or maybe your just surprised regular people know more than just wine and looking out of the window at sheep and snow

I'm happy in my ignorance munchkin

shafique wrote:The thread should perhaps be split into a Obama is Muslim or not thread.

Bora Bora wrote:Shaf, the claim that Obama is a Muslim has yet to be proven. It's like taking a poll - do you believe that there is life after death?

You've really lost me there.

Either Obama is a Muslim or he is not. He says he is a Christian. The Christian Monitor says he is a Christian:

Where are Americans getting their information about Obama’s religion? We ask that because, on this subject, a substantial and growing number of them are wrong. (Obama is Christian. We’ll say that up front, in case some of you are hazy on this point yourselves.)

(same link as above).

One in 5 of the people Obama leads thinks he is not a Christian according to the polls.


///

Bora Bora wrote:As for the immigration - there is living proof of that. I would assume that the poll refers to those who legally immigrated, and does not include illegals who go on visas and overstay or get into the country without documents.

Err, no - the polls are asking what people's views on immigration are - not whether their views reflect reality concerning immigration into the UK (the point the first commentator was making).

I think this is directly analagous to those who 'believe' Obama is Muslim - i.e. believing in something that is not based on actual evidence.

Bora Bora wrote:Black men dating white women is nothing new, is common, and for the most part accepted in the US - generally in the big cities, not rural towns. This also includes inter-racial dating and marriages.

Yes - I perhaps didn't get my point across (apologies for that).

Race and immigration aren't necessarily the same issue for most Brits. The anger against white European immigrants shows that the backlash against immigration it is not necessarily a race issue - and the bits DDS quoted above are in line with this. Indeed, if you read migrationwatch, they are at pains to point out that they aren't racist (but then again, so do the English Defence League and the BNP!).

My point is that most Brits would be apalled to be labelled racist these days - and would view the immigration issue as not an issue of colour, but rather of jobs and services.

Cheers,
Shafique

Since you have the "tools" to split it please do so. Move the appropriate posts.

As for losing you, maybe I didn't make myself clear.

Polls regarding Obama being Muslim: these polls are based on what people "believe" or "think", based on rumor. No one has been able to actually provide tangible proof that Obama is Muslim, so safe to assume he is not. Innocent until proven guilty.

Polls regarding immigration: there are government facts/records - tangible proof - showing the number of immigrants that migrate to a country. Opinions by those involved in the poll(s) are derived from facts, not rumor.

Polling opinions without facts are polls based on people's "beliefs". That's why I said the Obama poll is no different than a poll asking people: do you believe there is life after death? I can tell you "yes", but what am I basing that "yes" on? No one has proven to me that there is or is not life after death, it would just be something I believe.

Polling opinions with facts are polls based on what people derive from the facts - be the facts correct or incorrect / right or wrong -provided to them.

It's pretty much a form of trial. People come to a decision based on the proof of innocence or guilt, no supposition.

Bora, I blame this on you! I said I wasn't going to post or even look at the bloody politics topics again and look what happens!
I just viewed current posts or whatever it says and did a 'DDS' and just launched in without looking what I was doing.
Now I've pissed myself right off

Bora Bora wrote:As for losing you, maybe I didn't make myself clear.

Polls regarding Obama being Muslim: these polls are based on what people "believe" or "think", based on rumor. No one has been able to actually provide tangible proof that Obama is Muslim, so safe to assume he is not. Innocent until proven guilty.

Polls regarding immigration: there are government facts/records - tangible proof - showing the number of immigrants that migrate to a country. Opinions by those involved in the poll(s) are derived from facts, not rumor.

Bora - in an ideal world, the opinions about immigration, numbers, economic impact etc should indeed be based on facts and not rumour. However in reality, the media spin distorts the message.

One example - asylum seekers were vilified during a period where the numbers were actually going down, and where the actual numbers were a fraction of legal migration.

What people think about immigration is not necessarily related to the reality of the economic benefits brought in by immigrants, the numbers actually coming in and indeed what the net migration figure actually is.

I totally agree with you that polls reflect people's beliefs - on that we have no disagreement. This poll was about people's views on immigration, not their interpretation of government statistics. The first commentators views reflect this view (that the 4 in 5 aren't aware of the stats, he says).

As I stated in the previous post - the poll does indeed reflect what British people think (of all colours) i.e. it is representative, but that does not mean the views are based on statistics. Indeed amongst the 'Pakistani' community - you have those that came from East Africa in the 70s predominantly - and I've heard views from among people in those communities about more recent Pakistani immigrants who have arrived via Germany (after getting residency there) - their views would make BM proud!

I also believe that there is evidence to show which group of those polled have beliefs that are based on facts/logic and which aren't (this applies to both the question whether Obama is Muslim and the one in the original post - regarding levels of immigration).

Cheers,
Shafique

Didn't I tell you Zubber?

Well Jess, Since I dont know anything about queenieland, I would have to take all that is being said here at face value,

Shaf, let me ask you a question that leans toward being personal, if I may.

I'm going to assume that your family (and extended family) were the first generation to migrate to the UK, which was sometime back. Clearly your family migrated with the intent to work and provide for themselves and their children. They apparently worked very hard, gave their children the best education possible, lived by the law, paid their taxes and lived a "comfortable life". Now, having said that, do you think they, as well as you, find that a large number of immigrants - from many different countries - should be able to enter into the country, go on the dole, and live off the government - the government that your family and you paid/pay taxes into?

I think that the government should immigrants a limited time to be on the dole at the end of which time they either fend for themselves or return to their country - but not to continue to live on the dole as a lifestyle and be rewarded with the UK passport. Doesn't it bother you that you pay taxes - which are high in the UK - and immigrants seem to have more benefits that you as a citizen? that there is no penalty for not making the effort to contribute to the country?

With the same situation in the US, the government has tapped into the taxpayers retirement fund, known as Social Security, to finance immigrants who went on the dole - and stay on the dole!!! Retirees don't see an increase in their benefits and struggle to live on what they get, due to the fact that immigrants - legal and illegal - are living off those benefits. The retirement fund was tapped into to help financially "support" babies born in the US - citizens - born to illegal immigrants - which, from the time of their birth covers "housing", medical, education, etc., etc. Illegal immigrants are entitled to medical care/treatment, at the expense of the taxpayer. It also a well known fact that they speak English when it's convenient and when dealing with government agencies to collect from, they conveniently don't speak or understand English.

Bora Bora wrote:With the same situation in the US, the government has tapped into the taxpayers retirement fund, known as Social Security, to finance immigrants who went on the dole - and stay on the dole!!! Retirees don't see an increase in their benefits and struggle to live on what they get, due to the fact that immigrants - legal and illegal - are living off those benefits. The retirement fund was tapped into to help financially "support" babies born in the US - citizens - born to illegal immigrants - which, from the time of their birth covers "housing", medical, education, etc., etc. Illegal immigrants are entitled to medical care/treatment, at the expense of the taxpayer. It also a well known fact that they speak English when it's convenient and when dealing with government agencies to collect from, they conveniently don't speak or understand English.

I'm not Shaf but let me know what is the big difference between this absolute evil and "generational" Americans (mostly blacks), who has lived on welfare for years , very frequently like their ancestors. This "minority" accounts for "majority" in American jails and 33% of them have criminal record. So I don't quite understand your gaze on immigrants only. Some of them founded corporation "Google" rather recently, invented helicopter and TV set in the past. Pardon, the last one hardly spoke English.

Good questions Bora - happy to answer them.

I'll be giving my opinions and won't pretend to speak for others - including my immediate family. (My wife, who is an immigrant herself (from Mauritius) is very, very anti-Immigrants and got upset at the news on telly and newspapers about asylum seekers, benefit spongers etc. My Dad uses 'Paki' as a swear word and distinguishes between asians who came from Pakistan and those who came from East Africa. )

Our background is that my Dad came over to the UK as a teenager and was educated here. My mother is from Mauritius and joined my dad after getting married. I was not educated fully in Britain - only primary school, then I did a couple of years in Mauritius and 4 years in Zimbabwe - including the last year in a boarding school. I then returned to the UK where I worked and studied to become an Actuary. I've pretty much paid taxes my whole adult life and haven't taken a penny in social benefit.

In my professional capacity I study and have to understand demographics, economics and I pretty much live and breathe statistics (professionally).

I also have the tendency to look beyond headlines and look at the substance of issues.

On immigration - there is much more hype than substance. The bulk of immigration is actually from Europe, and there's nothing we Brits can do about this. The minority of immigrants are from outside Europe and of those a much smaller number are asylum seekers.

The statistics about benefit claimants - let's take that for starters - does not show that the majority of the payments go to immigrants. Nor do the scare stories about immigrant families jumping housing queues in fact correspond to reality. There IS a shortage of social housing, and there is a strain on some local communities when they are swamped by Poles etc - but that is a planning issue and historically is a short term issue until central government can reallocate funds.

On social security, the facts are that immigrants don't tend to sponge off the state to a greater extend than Brits born in the UK (or let's be frank, white Brits).

The studies show that immigrants make a positive economic contribution to the UK - and that as a group claim less from the State - i.e. where money of the state is spent on them, it is an investment that yields real results.

The Daily Mail examples of immigrants not speaking English, sponging off the state etc all tend to be specific examples which aren't representative. There are communities in the North of England - eg Bradford - where the immigrants there came from particular parts of Asia, all worked in the same industry (eg textile mills), kept themselves to themselves (as did their white neighbours) and when the mills closed down, the kids of both Asians and White workers found themselves in pretty much the same boat. The kids all speak English with Yorkshire accents, but some first generation parents don't - they didn't need to. They came because the industry needed them, made a positive contribution - and now are in communities where all nationalities are facing problems of lack of jobs. However, this is the same as parts of Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Cornwall etc - indeed there are big immigrant communities in Liverpool, Manchester etc - all came and gave positive economic benefit to the country.

As for social welfare: Pretty much every politician and political party agrees that the social welfare system needs reforming - but this is a general problem, not one relating to immigrants. I do believe that we may be too kind on spongers, but I would hate for the UK to go to the extent of the US system. And when we compare the UK benefits with those on the continent (especially Scandinavia) - we aren't the most generous. There's a balance to be struck.

I do believe that immigration should be debated openly and without fear of being labelled a racist for just discussing it. I also think the social security system should be reformed.

Had my wife been polled, she would have said there is too much immigration. My answer would have been the measures are about right - and market forces will work their magic (Poles are leaving the UK now, after all).

Cheers,
Shafique

^Good points RC. You forgot to mention the invention of the game Tetris!

You're echoing the first commenator I quoted who stated we should rather look at those who are draining the state, rather than 'immigrant' vs 'native'. In the UK we have the equivalent of the underclass you describe in the USA - some people think it is racist to point out the demographical make up of this group.

Cheers,
Shafique

OT - "Bit" about immigrants , have a look see peepz , Comedy

- CLEAN !

shafique wrote:^Good points RC. You forgot to mention the invention of the game Tetris!

I don't want to upset you but the guy, who invented Tetris, was not immigrant but the one, who invened Russian salad, wasn't even Russian but French.

Shaf, thank you for taking time to respond/elaborate. I appreciate it. It is that type of post that allows for intelligent debate.

-- Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:27 am --

Red Chief wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:With the same situation in the US, the government has tapped into the taxpayers retirement fund, known as Social Security, to finance immigrants who went on the dole - and stay on the dole!!! Retirees don't see an increase in their benefits and struggle to live on what they get, due to the fact that immigrants - legal and illegal - are living off those benefits. The retirement fund was tapped into to help financially "support" babies born in the US - citizens - born to illegal immigrants - which, from the time of their birth covers "housing", medical, education, etc., etc. Illegal immigrants are entitled to medical care/treatment, at the expense of the taxpayer. It also a well known fact that they speak English when it's convenient and when dealing with government agencies to collect from, they conveniently don't speak or understand English.

I'm not Shaf but let me know what is the big difference between this absolute evil and "generational" Americans (mostly blacks), who has lived on welfare for years , very frequently like their ancestors. This "minority" accounts for "majority" in American jails and 33% of them have criminal record. So I don't quite understand your gaze on immigrants only. Some of them founded corporation "Google" rather recently, invented helicopter and TV set in the past. Pardon, the last one hardly spoke English.

RC, I believe the subject of blacks on the welfare system was discussed in the past. If not, let me just say, that discrimination/racism towards blacks has a very long history as you are aware of. Black people were put on the welfare roles as it became a means to keep them down and uneducated. It became a lifestyle that was passed down to each generation. For appearances sake, government programs were established that were to help them to learn a skill or acquire an eduation to help them into the workforce. But the thinking was: why should I go to work and pay taxes and go home with 300 bucks a week, when I can stay home do nothing and collect 250 bucks a week, have my housing and utilities paid and get food stamps. The government made it more attractive to stay on welfare. But there are many who took advantage of the programs and helped themself out of that cycle because they wanted better for their children. Yes, the majority of people in prison are black. Most came from the generational cycle that was created by welfare.

First wave Immigrants are grateful for what they receive in the states and don't want to rock the boat as it is smooth sailing on the system. Obviously life is better in the states; otherwise they wouldn't have left their own country. They aren't going to risk loosing a good thing. For some they pass the welfare lifestyle onto their children, but more often than not, the children strive to get out of it. And then the next wave comes in..........................

To be honest, if I had a family member who needed welfare assistance I wouldn't have a problem with that for the simple fact is I paid my taxes, so in a way I'm seeing a return on my taxes. At least I can think that I'm supporting a family member by virtue of my taxes, rather than a family of 4 that arrived yesterday and will be living off my taxes for who knows how long.

A question for you: do you have a welfare system in Russia? Are immigrants eligible to collect from that system? Do they get as much from the government as immigrants do when they migrate to the UK and the US? Do they get citizenship? I'd be interested to know because you seem to support immigrants' rights to have a government provide for them with regard to medical, housing, food, clothing, spending money, etc. Looking forward to your response.

Thanks BB - always good to discuss. You make very good points as well - and your views about social security/taxes are ones I can relate to.

Red Chief wrote:I don't want to upset you but the guy, who invented Tetris, was not immigrant but the one, who invened Russian salad, wasn't even Russian but French.

I'm not upset (I was being light hearted) - I knew the guy didn't invent tetris before he emigrated but he now an immigrant in the USA - working for one of the tech firms (I can't remember which).

Cheers,
Shafique