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Bethsmum wrote: Evil spew from an evil person. Call your self a good Muslim? I'd call you vile. It's no wonder Muslims have a bad name.

LOL Still addressing with religion hahaha!!
I made myself clear already that I'm not using religious references in our discussion.
I dont even know whats your religion! What is it btw, I'd surely believe you're a Jew or a wannabe

Since you keep on bringing up this subject about hostility in religion, I suggest we discuss more of the Talamud teachings to help you judge properly.

symmetric wrote:

Bethsmum wrote: Evil spew from an evil person. Call your self a good Muslim? I'd call you vile. It's no wonder Muslims have a bad name.

LOL Still addressing with religion hahaha!!
I made myself clear already that I'm not using religious references in our discussion.
I dont even know whats your religion! What is it btw, I'd surely believe you're a Jew or a wannabe

Since you keep on bringing up this subject about hostility in religion, I suggest we discuss more of the Talamud teachings to help you judge properly.

Evil anti semitic rantings of a deranged person IMO LOL. Isreal will prevail.

Bethsmum wrote:Evil anti semitic rantings of a deranged person IMO LOL. Isreal will prevail.

Offcourse it shall prevail, only to perish

Since you're enforcing religion, let's read more about "your world" ..

Speaking about evil...
Didn't "God" ask the Israelis to conduct a Jewish Jihad on the Amalikes & Canaanites?

God commanded the Jews to kill infants, sucklings and even animals

"1 Samuel 15:2-4

1Sa 15:2 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts, I have marked that which Amalek did to Israel, how he set himself against him in the way, when he came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 4 And Saul summoned the people, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah."

It's interesting there is another new version of the verse where they removed the word "suckling", and replaced it with "children".

http://www.zondervanbiblesearch.com/Res ... %22Lord%22

Talking about racism (or anti-semitsm) as you call it?
Lets spotlight more on this issue, from the Talamud.

- "The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts." Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b

- "The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture says to honor the dog more than the non-Jew." TALMUD:Ereget Raschi Erod, 22 30.

- "The souls of non-Jews come from impure spirits and are called PIGS." TALMUD: Jalkut Rubeni gadol 12b.

- "It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah." TALMUD: Coschen Hamischpat, Hagah 425.

Let alone the insults on both Yeshu (Jesus) where they describes his punishment in the afterlife as boiling in excrement and they accuse Maryam (Marry) for being a "whore" !! No wonder Christian-Europe had huge hatred towards the Jews.

IMO, you (BM) are very evil and racist .. Your world is like hell to me

Well if I'm a racist I'm in good company, cause you are, as sure as hell, a racist and an anti-semitic. A Muslim of the worst order. I'm just so pleased that I know all Emiratis are not as wicked as you. Shame on you and your warped view of your religion. Filled with hate and loathing for anything not Muslim.

symmetric wrote:

Bethsmum wrote:Evil anti semitic rantings of a deranged person IMO LOL. Isreal will prevail.

Offcourse it shall prevail, only to perish

Since you're enforcing religion, let's read more about "your world" ..

Speaking about evil...
Didn't "God" ask the Israelis to conduct a Jewish Jihad on the Amalikes & Canaanites?

God commanded the Jews to kill infants, sucklings and even animals

"1 Samuel 15:2-4

1Sa 15:2 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts, I have marked that which Amalek did to Israel, how he set himself against him in the way, when he came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and peach. 4 And Saul summoned the people, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah."

It's interesting there is another new version of the verse where they removed the word "suckling", and replaced it with "children".

http://www.zondervanbiblesearch.com/Res ... %22Lord%22

Talking about racism (or anti-semitsm) as you call it?
Lets spotlight more on this issue, from the Talamud.

- "The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts." Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b

- "The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture says to honor the dog more than the non-Jew." TALMUD:Ereget Raschi Erod, 22 30.

- "The souls of non-Jews come from impure spirits and are called PIGS." TALMUD: Jalkut Rubeni gadol 12b.

- "It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah." TALMUD: Coschen Hamischpat, Hagah 425.

You donot know what the Talmud is apparently. Most quotes are made up anyway or are not the Talmud.

Flying Dutchman wrote: You donot know what the Talmud is apparently. Most quotes are made up anyway or are not the Talmud.

You never gave a damn justifying the verses of Quran, but you couldn't help not justifying the brutal side of the Bible and the Talmud.

The verses below are from the BIBLE. It orders the Israelis to slay men, women, INFANT & SUCKLING, ox & sheep, camel & sheep !! Seriously??? SUCKLINGS & INFANTS ?? Is this how Israelis today justify their massacres?? Yes! Thats what the Rabbais do when giving their lectures during the preparation of any attack on the Palestineans and Lebanese (aka CANAANITES/PHEONICIANS).

"1 Samuel 15:2-4

1Sa 15:2 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts, I have marked that which Amalek did to Israel, how he set himself against him in the way, when he came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and peach. 4 And Saul summoned the people, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah."

- - - - - - - - -

Since you're debating the Talmud, may you kindly explain more how it addresses the other nations that are non-jewish ??
As per my post with references from the Talmud, why don't you clarrify which is true and which is false

What's interesting is that if you google the Talmudic passages Sym pasted half the sites that come up are Nazi/White Supremacist and the other half are Muslim blogs and missionary sites.

Pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

event horizon wrote:What's interesting is that if you google the Talmudic passages Sym pasted half the sites that come up are Nazi/White Supremacist and the other half are Muslim blogs and missionary sites.

Pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

When you failed to justify the brutality of these holy books, you started manipulating around and putting lame accusation that are meaningless. So typical of you.

Lets go 1 by 1 ..

1) What are your comments on the Bible's orders to slay infants, and sucklings??

2) If you claim the Talmudic passages aren't correct, then ENLIGHTEN us more about it with ref. please.

Shalom

symmetric wrote:The verses below are from the BIBLE.

I dont think Jews use the term bible.

symmetric wrote:It orders the Israelis to slay men, women, INFANT & SUCKLING, ox & sheep, camel & sheep !! Seriously??? SUCKLINGS & INFANTS ?? Is this how Israelis today justify their massacres?? Yes!

Sweet thing is if a person will stand shouting in some Tel Aviv square that jews should be bagged and used for combustion, by standers will just shrugg their shoulders.

symmetric wrote:(aka CANAANITES/PHEONICIANS).

Aka? Nobody today is refering to Canaanites or Pheonicians to people who live today. Btw, mainstream theory is that Jews were a Canaanite tribe.

symmetric wrote:why don't you clarrify which is true and which is false

Quote from an online Talmud or something and not from some neo-nazi site.
I realize Muslims donot really know what the Talmud is. Muhammed didn't. Folk tales from the Talmud are in the Quran. For those who know what the Talmud is, this is absolute proof the Quran is a forgery. Some Muslims realize that this one of the weak links in their missionary effort and leave the Talmud out in discussions.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

symmetric wrote:The verses below are from the BIBLE.

I dont think Jews use the term bible.

Are you a Jew to object?? I was talking to you a pagan who went to a Christian school.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

symmetric wrote:It orders the Israelis to slay men, women, INFANT & SUCKLING, ox & sheep, camel & sheep !! Seriously??? SUCKLINGS & INFANTS ?? Is this how Israelis today justify their massacres?? Yes!

Sweet thing is if a person will stand shouting in some Tel Aviv square that jews should be bagged and used for combustion, by standers will just shrugg their shoulders.

Be objective and aim to the point instead of your cheesy comments.
Killing infants and sucklings?? Justify that ..

Flying Dutchman wrote:

symmetric wrote:(aka CANAANITES/PHEONICIANS).

Aka? Nobody today is refering to Canaanites or Pheonicians to people who live today. Btw, mainstream theory is that Jews were a Canaanite tribe.

Do you have a problem with metaphors?? Or is it your way to avoid confrontations??
However, both Palestineans and Lebanese are the offspring of the Canaanites/Pheonicians. It's MORE than commin among us here in the region. Add this piece of info to your account.

The 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 tribes of Ismael, all are offspring of Abraham the Childanean.
Nothing to do with Canaanites. Infact more to do with the Semite nations of Ur in Iraq.

Focus more on the vikings and the germanic stock or what ever fits

Flying Dutchman wrote:

symmetric wrote:why don't you clarrify which is true and which is false

Quote from an online Talmud or something and not from some neo-nazi site.
I realize Muslims donot really know what the Talmud is. Muhammed didn't. Folk tales from the Talmud are in the Quran. For those who know what the Talmud is, this is absolute proof the Quran is a forgery. Some Muslims realize that this one of the weak links in their missionary effort and leave the Talmud out in discussions.

Another ignorant conclusion on the region's religions.
The religions here in our region are all connected one way or another. Those "folk stories" you're barking about also EXISTED before Jeudaisum in Babel. If you compare the epic of Gilgamesh with the Torah you'll also accuse it for being a forgery.
I'm not leaving the Talmud out of discussion, lets assume there is something we missed, can you enlighten us??

I dare you to prove that Jeudaisum has no extreme racist and brutal verses teachings. All religions here do, but you keep on targeting Islam itself and ignoring the rest. You fear it to death, because you know it will conquer you sooner or later.

Moreover, why are you defending something with FULL passion, although you dont belong to??
We both agreed you're not a Christian, and a non-Semite too. You whorship Zeus, the European God

Someone has a hidden agenda

Infallibility of the Talmud -

...Book infalliability without authoratative interpreation is no better than a mighty sword without a mighty hand to wield it...

In plain english, interpretation of any religious text cannot be done by those who do not have the necessary skills to make the interpretation, whatever information you gather from your own cursory glance of the text is in valid

...The conception of the Talmud as infalliable arose in a time when the babylonian Geonim possesed a practical monopoly of spiritual prestige...

Here attention is being drawn to the fact that infallibility of the text was a "conception" ie., constructed, fabricated, and did not exist before that period, moreover the conception was done by some sort of a spiritual authority, meaning those ideas that were deemed not acceptable were not incorporated in justifying the veracity of the text.

..With the extinction of the Gaonate about the middle of the eleventh century. THe last authoratative body disappeared from among the jews....was how to maintain the authority of the Talmud in the absence of any authoratative interpretation...

If the authoritative body did not exist then the credibility of the text would come into question, nothing is preventing errors from being recorded and propagated as divine revelation.

...and the result was the endless multiplicity of authorities...

Due to the lack of a central authoritative body, it would be virtually impossible to maintain the veracity of the text.

Source - http://books.google.com.my/books?id=x1F ... ud&f=false

Book Title - "Understanding Rabbinic Judaism" , P 124 , Paragraph 2 , Lines 1 through 18.

You whorship Zeus

I truely believe certain episodes of Greek "religion" are how religion is supposed to be: FUN! With BBQ and all!
Besides that there is a lot of wisdom in Greek philosophy and mythology. Much more inspirational than the Quran IMO.

I realize Muslims donot really know what the Talmud is. Muhammed didn't. Folk tales from the Talmud are in the Quran. For those who know what the Talmud is, this is absolute proof the Quran is a forgery. Some Muslims realize that this one of the weak links in their missionary effort and leave the Talmud out in discussions.

No no mate- check out the following yourself..none of these are in the quran!

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/read ... ately.html

Flying Dutchman wrote:Besides that there is a lot of wisdom in Greek philosophy and mythology

Virtually all of the sciences trace their origins to the period of the greeks, this is an undeniable truth

Besides that there is a lot of wisdom in Greek philosophy and mythology. Much more inspirational than the Quran IMO.

Virtually all of the sciences trace their origins to the period of the greeks, this is an undeniable truth

I am not sure if you have to stay at or stick to the Greek philosophy and sciences to think of the logic behind all of this marvel that existed before and after Adam and Eve..
dubai-culture-forum/deep-thinking-full-text-book-t39210.html

Berrin wrote:

Besides that there is a lot of wisdom in Greek philosophy and mythology. Much more inspirational than the Quran IMO.

Virtually all of the sciences trace their origins to the period of the greeks, this is an undeniable truth

I am not sure if you have to stay at or stick to the Greek philosophy and sciences to think of the logic behind all of this marvel that existed before and after Adam and Eve..
dubai-culture-forum/deep-thinking-full-text-book-t39210.html

No thanks, he is a holocaust denier.

Berrin wrote:

Besides that there is a lot of wisdom in Greek philosophy and mythology. Much more inspirational than the Quran IMO.

Virtually all of the sciences trace their origins to the period of the greeks, this is an undeniable truth

I am not sure if you have to stay at or stick to the Greek philosophy and sciences to think of the logic behind all of this marvel that existed before and after Adam and Eve..
dubai-culture-forum/deep-thinking-full-text-book-t39210.html

Mr Adnan Oktar is indeed a great scholar, I have much respect for him and his works, His knowledge is truly remarkable, How perfectly he describes religious doctrines using sound logical representation and proper scientific method and practically the only person who has presented a solid case against Darwinism and has set an open challenge to anyone who can prove otherwise.

Berrin, if you see the historical time line a lot of the work of the greeks was translated by the arabs during the golden age, mid-7th century to the mid-13th century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age), and during this period science was advancing by leaps and bounds, Most notably in Anatomy, Medicine, Astronomy, Mathematics (Algebra and the invention of the Zero), Then when the golden age was over, the information was then assimilated by the europeans who had further advanced to what it is now. No doubt knowledge has traversed through many different generations, the source being difficult to identify since no documentation exists regarding those origins

zubber wrote:

Flying Dutchman wrote:Besides that there is a lot of wisdom in Greek philosophy and mythology

Virtually all of the sciences trace their origins to the period of the greeks, this is an undeniable truth

Objection my friend ...

The Greeks took science from their masters the Sumerians and the Egyptions.

For sure, Sumer was the mother of all civilizations. Then each nation followed after contributed accordingly, such as Assyria, Greece, Persia, Rome, etc.

-- Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:47 pm --

Flying Dutchman wrote:

You whorship Zeus

I truely believe certain episodes of Greek "religion" are how religion is supposed to be: FUN! With BBQ and all!
Besides that there is a lot of wisdom in Greek philosophy and mythology. Much more inspirational than the Quran IMO.

Good for you! Its good to have FUN with BBQ and all, way to go

The problem is you always try to run away from confrontations, now justify the brutality in the Bible of commanding the Israelis to slay every infant and suckling

I already agree with you -in advance- that the Greek philosophy is way much peacful and harmonic than those violent and brutal verses in the Bible which I'm already aware that you don't believe in

RC (Red Chief) is quite well versed on the Greek civilisations and philosophy - I'm sure he can spread some light on this.

I read that the Ancient Greek alphabet came from the East of the Mediterranean - probably from current day Lebanon. The Sumerians (and perhaps others in the 'East') developed writing quite early on and then it spread westwards.

Socrates is very spiritual, and indeed the mythologies are parables in all but name (I have Illiad and Odyssey on my shelf waiting to be read, but in English translation - not ancient Greek!)

The transmission of Greek works by the Islamic empire(s) is a well established historical fact, although some really fringe out-there groups seek to either minimise or deny it (even though it is in pretty much every historical text book which deals with the period).

Which reminds me of a quote from the religion forum from John Hannam - whom eh quoted from once:

The truth I think is something like this. There was undeniably a decline in scientific knowledge in the Western Roman Empire as it declined and collapsed but the roots of this can be traced to the pagan Romans. After 200 BC there was a fruitful cultural contact between Greeks and the bilingual Roman upper classes. This introduced a version of the classical tradition into the Roman Empire but it was a thin popularised version which was translated into Latin. Bilingualism and the conditions which favoured scholarship then declined rapidly after AD180 as the empire entered the 3rd century crisis. Roman citizens who were gradually becoming Christian were therefore limited to pieces of the classical tradition which had been explained and summarised by Latin authors.

Meanwhile the richer, more complete version of the classical tradition fell into the hands of the Muslims as they rapidly expanded across Asia and the Mediterranean.

It was then translated into Arabic, further developed and moved across north Africa to Spain.

As soon as Western Europe had recovered sufficiently it’s intellectuals travelled to Spain to translate the materials and bring them into medieval culture.

http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2010-04-03T13%3A54%3A00%2B01%3A00&max-results=10
Feb 2010 blog entry

philosophy-dubai/fact-check-please-t42144.html

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin, if you see the historical time line a lot of the work of the greeks was translated by the arabs during the golden age, mid-7th century to the mid-13th century

Thanks Zubber that's exactly what I was saying when I questioned whether we shoud stay at or stick to the Greek belief systems,that's looking at continuing events and further scientific dicoveries from this day and moment..

What I also wanted to convey FD was that, in order to notice such wonderful science in every creation one did not need to worship greek mythology alone to take heed in this life..Science being the part of creation existed before we were nothing, still exist and will continue to exist...It just that like the travelling passangers, every new generation discoveres something new on their own journey before it all ends at this worldly station ..

symmetric wrote:Objection my friend ...
The Greeks took science from their masters the Sumerians and the Egyptions.

For sure, Sumer was the mother of all civilizations. Then each nation followed after contributed accordingly, such as Assyria, Greece, Persia, Rome, etc.

The relationships you have described are not reported as conclusive, these are only assumptions based on fossil findings, However a possibility exists precursors to the formal sciences might have originated there. Exactly how those civilizations constructed their megalithic structures is not fully understood.

Sym - please try and at least be polite. Your last post crossed the line, and was deleted.

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin wrote:Thanks Zubber that's exactly what I was saying when I questioned whether we shoud stay at or stick to the Greek belief systems,that's looking at continuing events and further scientific dicoveries from this day and moment..

What I also wanted to convey FD was that, in order to notice such wonderful science in every creation one did not need to worship greek mythology alone to take heed in this life..Science being the part of creation existed before we were nothing, still exist and will continue to exist...It just that like the travelling passangers, every new generation discoveres something new on their own journey before it all ends at this worldly station ..

IMHO - Polytheism is actually the worship of natural forces and human characteristics as deities, in all the pagan religions this is a common characteristic, and since the greek mythological beliefs were the cornerstone in the development of their sciences, they were pretty accurate, Because their worship involves a formal investigation of the characteristics of their "god", unbeknown-est to them they were actually rationally investigating physical phenomenon.

OK guyz , I found this in support of my opinion -

The earlier inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula were an agricultural people who, using Animism, assigned a spirit to every aspect of nature. Eventually, these vague spirits assumed human forms and entered the local mythology as gods. When tribes from the north of the Balkan Peninsula invaded, they brought with them a new pantheon of gods, based on conquest, force, prowess in battle, and violent heroism. Other older gods of the agricultural world fused with those of the more powerful invaders or else faded into insignificance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology

This is quoted as the source of the pantheon of gods in greek mythology.

shafique wrote:Sym - please try and at least be polite. Your last post crossed the line, and was deleted.

Cheers,
Shafique

Although it was too sarcastic, but I hear you

symmetric wrote:The problem is you always try to run away from confrontations, now justify the brutality in the Bible of commanding the Israelis to slay every infant and suckling

I donot believe those stories really happened. I cannot justify or unjustify something that didn't happen according to me.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

symmetric wrote:The problem is you always try to run away from confrontations, now justify the brutality in the Bible of commanding the Israelis to slay every infant and suckling

I donot believe those stories really happened. I cannot justify or unjustify something that didn't happen according to me.

The same concept applys on all those who deny the holocaust. You can't force them to accept it as they don't believe such story really happened. Moreover, you can't judge someone's credibility just because he/she denys the holocaust.

For that I insist on asking you, why you keep on defending Jeudaism and Christianity with passion, if you consider God's words as lies. Yet you can't spare a moment but to put any random accusation on Islam.
Do you have to believe the stories mentioned in the Quran? Perhaps you should've debated the reality of these stories.

You're stuck with your double-standard principles, aren't you?

Failure justified by immaturity.

symmetric wrote:The same concept applys on all those who deny the holocaust.

Totally not, there is so much evidence for the holocaust that it can be considered a certain fact. There is no evidence at all that what is said in your Biblical quotes is actually said thousands for years ago.

symmetric wrote:You can't force them to accept it as they don't believe such story really happened.

Correct.

symmetric wrote: Moreover, you can't judge someone's credibility just because he/she denys the holocaust..

Yes I can. My judgement of somebody's credibility is a personal issue.

symmetric wrote:why you keep on defending Jeudaism and Christianity with passion

I never ever defend Judaism and Christianity with a passion.

No thanks, he is a holocaust denier.

Where is it that he denies? and in what sense?

Flying Dutchman wrote:Totally not, there is so much evidence for the holocaust that it can be considered a certain fact. There is no evidence at all that what is said in your Biblical quotes is actually said thousands for years ago.

Were you there?? Did you witness any of it?? Did you volunteer to count any figures??

Do you really think the other side of the world with all its different nations would give a damn about it whether you believe its a fact or not.

We weren't there either! Your evidences are not enough to make us believe.

Why didn't anyone come up with a term regarding the Holocaust & genocide against the Red Indians of America?? It didn't happen thousands of years ago, and its not mentioned in the bible

Look at yourself how you're fighting with passion just to prove it ..
Ok you got my sympathy, I appreciate this initiative of yours, well done

Flying Dutchman wrote:

symmetric wrote:You can't force them to accept it as they don't believe such story really happened.

Correct.

Good boy

Flying Dutchman wrote:

symmetric wrote: Moreover, you can't judge someone's credibility just because he/she denys the holocaust..

Yes I can. My judgement of somebody's credibility is a personal issue

Its also a personal issue for every single person living in this world to deny the credibility of whomever believes in the holocaust. You got a problem with that?

Flying Dutchman wrote:

symmetric wrote:why you keep on defending Jeudaism and Christianity with passion

I never ever defend Judaism and Christianity with a passion.

Are Judaism & Christianity religions of peace?? Yes or No.

symmetric wrote:Were you there?? Did you witness any of it?? Did you volunteer to count any figures??

I have seen some camps and had family members experiencing it.

symmetric wrote:Do you really think the other side of the world with all its different nations would give a damn about it whether you believe its a fact or not

No not at all.

symmetric wrote:We weren't there either!

Not sure who 'we' is, but the mufti of jerusalem was pretty much involved.

symmetric wrote:Look at yourself how you're fighting with passion just to prove it ..

I donot feel any need to or put energy in trying to prove that an elephant is an elephant.

symmetric wrote:Its also a personal issue for every single person living in this world to deny the credibility of whomever believes in the holocaust. You got a problem with that?

No.

You sure do have a lot of questions for me.

And yes I believe mainstream Christianity and mainstream Judaism are religions of peace. No Christian and no Jew have intimated me because of religious reasons or approaced me in an aggresive manner, on the contrary.