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Ok, time for a recap.

We have an article with some selected quotes from Zahar in the OP. I've asked herve (in the other thread) to produce the full speech and quotes in context, and agreed that if indeed Zahar denies the Holocaust, I will join in the condemnation of his views.

I'm still waiting.

I pointed out above that the official Hamas view on the Holocaust is categorical - they don't deny it, they condemn it. Fully referenced, in English, in full:

shafique wrote: Bassam Naeem is a Hamas politician and Minister of Information (and Health) and was speaking on behalf of Hamas - the paper gave this as his profile:

Bassem Naeem is the minister of health and information in the Hamas-led Palestinian administration in Gaza.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... eholocaust

The full article was posted in the thread linked to above, and the link given. But here it is again:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... eholocaust

The headline is pretty clear 'Hamas condemns the Holocaust' but the article is more detailed and categoric.

As I said, if presented with snippets which appear to contradict this clear stance, the onus is on those producing the snippets to show that they aren't being fooled by wilful spin.

I presume that since the Zahar quote hasn't been forthcoming, the usual suspects will probably resort to the previously published snippets that float around on the web. I'm sure they'll refer to Memri material and ignore the fact that these are snippets too - and edited snippets too.

But this thread is about Zahar and his alleged views.

The offer still stands, if Zahar has said he disagrees with Hamas' official stance and denies the Holocaust, it should be straightforward for the full speech to be produced and when that is done and should this confirm the thread title, I'll add him to my list of Holocaust deniers - who, like Hamas, we disagree with.

I'm hoping I won't have to reel out the over-used phrase 'all mouth, no trousers' again. Produce the speech, in full.

Cheers,
Shafique

What's the point?

No one believes your argument but yourself.

Once again, here's video of what was aired on Hamas owned and operated al-Aqsa TV

Just to point out that Christian Zionists who support Israel - also expect Israel to perish, only they expect Jesus to do the slaughter (of those who don't convert) when he returns.

Nutters for and against Israel - but with common views!


But coming back to this thread's topic - if anyone does find Zahar's full speech and can show that he does contradict Hamas' official line - let me know. I'll be more than happy to condemn him for diverting from Hamas' stated policy.

Cheers,
Shafique

BM, it's probably best to try to ignore the troll - that advice goes to all members.

Here's Hamas' actual position as shown by this video that was aired on Hamas' official TV station:

troll wrote:Just to point out that Christian Zionists who support Israel - also expect Israel to perish, only they expect Jesus to do the slaughter (of those who don't convert) when he returns.

Nutters for and against Israel - but with common views!

Sorry, I know I advised others not to feed the troll, but I just had to correct our resident loon's misunderstanding/distortion of actual Christian Zionist beliefs.

Christian Zionism is rooted in the epistles, including Rom 13 which says that all of Israel will be saved. Contrary to our Loon's claim that Jesus will destroy Israel (never heard that one before), they believe Christ will actually save Israel from destruction from the anti-Christ.

John Hagee, currently the most prominent Christian Zionist - as have other Christian Zionists - actually believe that Jews need not convert to Christianity to achieve Salvation (Romans 13).

What Christian Zionists do believe is that the Bible supports the State of Israel and that Israel's existence is in accord with Biblical prophecy. Some hold that the state of Israel will usher in the second coming of The Messiah who will then battle the anti-Christ.

Bethsmum wrote:Yes I did miss it and I have no idea what you are talking about. I prefer plain speaking, not this smoke screen crap you deal in.

No problem BM - I hope the below is plain enough for you.


But anyway, back to the thread:

if anyone does find Zahar's full speech and can show that he does contradict Hamas' official line - let me know. I'll be more than happy to condemn him for diverting from Hamas' stated policy.

Cheers,
Shafique

Hamas state policy IS holocaust denial, it is not the other way around, again, you are trying to deceit.
I just wonder if you actually beleive that anyone beleive in your constant broken records with the same and only calculated quote.

herve, thanks for sharing your belief.

However, this thread is about a snippet in a speech by Zahar.

I think I've been fair when I say:
if anyone does find Zahar's full speech and can show that he does contradict Hamas' official line - let me know. I'll be more than happy to condemn him for diverting from Hamas' stated policy.

Just believing fervently that Hamas' official statement that it condemns and doesn't deny the Holocaust doesn't exist, or is somehow negated by incomplete quotes or edited vids translated by Memri - is really quite desperate.

Am I being unreasonable in asking to read the whole speech in context - as I said, if he has indeed gone against Hamas' official policy and denies the Holocaust, I'll join you in condemning him.

Cheers,
Shafique

Your agenda is to support and to paint Hamas as friendly as possible, ignoring the fact that only one link contradicts pages and pages of links and videos from Hamas leaders who deny the holocaust, and worse: ignoring the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization, their members would be arrested if they set foot in the UK or the US.
And you do that posing as a Britt to make yourself more beleivable. You are a Pakistani in heart and a Muslim, at least be proud of it and put it forward so people can understand better why you take this stance.

Err - my 'one link' as you put it is the official statement by the Hamas minister of information.

shafique wrote:
Let's recall the words of Hamas, which continue to be the only definitive, complete and clear statement on the subject:

Hamas' Minister of Information categorically states:

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.

Full article here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... eholocaust

As I keep repeating, this thread is about a supposed contradiction to this Hamas view by Zahar. Should you (or anyone else) ever produce a full transcript which shows he has indeed denied the holocaust and gone against Hamas' clear policy above, I will gladly join you in condemning him.

I don't need to call anyone any names or imagine their nationalities etc to make this simple point.

Cheers,
Shafique

you will never condemn hamas, you keep posting the same non sense when everybody post links and vid's of the opposite. So go ahead post your link again dude

OK.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... eholocaust

Happy?

Now, back to this thread's topic - will we EVER find a complete transcript that shows that Zahar has indeed gone against Hamas' official line.

C'mon then. Make my day.

Cheers,
Shafique

A news paper opinion editorial has morphed into Hamas' official stance.

Pointless to argue with The Troll....

Never mind that the Op-Ed contained a few lies that have not been addressed.

herve wrote:Your agenda is to support and to paint Hamas as friendly as possible, ignoring the fact that only one link contradicts pages and pages of links and videos from Hamas leaders who deny the holocaust, and worse: ignoring the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization, their members would be arrested if they set foot in the UK or the US.
And you do that posing as a Britt to make yourself more beleivable. You are a Pakistani in heart and a Muslim, at least be proud of it and put it forward so people can understand better why you take this stance.

Your agenda is to support and to paint Israel as innocent as possible.
Poor Jews we killed them like goats in Europe, and then threw their corpses along with the alive ones to Palestine for them to burry their dirt rather than polluting our European land. But now we feel too guilty, and we want to express our sincere apologies by forcing the whole world (even the Red Indians whom we almost slaughtered all of them), we need to force them to recognize this genocide and we have to condemn those who deny this fact.

- - - - - -

Whats wrong with being a Muslim and a Pakistani btw?? And how do you know he is one anyways??
You guys are SO typical, you drag the whole world into wars based on meaningless false claims, so its not strange that you'd claim false IDs as for others anyways.

Let me quote an Israeli women when she yelled at a Palestinean Christian and said ..
"May the G-d of Israel curse you and send you all to hell along with your false bastard God (Jesus)."

Does this sound decent? Well offcourse not, but we always need to justify our Israeli lords

Wow - here's me trying to keep things on topic, sigh.

Let's try again.

Will anyone produce a full transcript so that we can verify the claim made in the thread title, and confirm whether indeed Zahar has contradicted the clear, categoric statement of Hamas' views of the Holocaust?

Cheers,
Shafique

@Shaf

Sym, could you please address the video which was aired on Hamas run al-Aqsa TV?

symmetric wrote:@Shaf

No probs sym.

Let me know if anyone does produce the evidence relating to the thread title so we can confirm whether Zahar has indeed contradicted Hamas' clear stance on the subject.

Be wary of people changing the subject or trying to justify this by reeling out previous selective quotes/translations/Memri specials. Keep focus, young one.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:Sym, could you please address the video which was aired on Hamas run al-Aqsa TV?

1) I couldn't careless about the holocaust. Toxical wastes & garbage should be either burried or combusted.

2) The video was meaningless and I didn't like it.

3) Hamas doesn't know how to deal with politics.

4) You need to focus, EH

symmetric wrote:

event horizon wrote:Sym, could you please address the video which was aired on Hamas run al-Aqsa TV?

1) I couldn't careless about the holocaust. Toxical wastes & garbage should be either burried or combusted.

2) The video was meaningless and I didn't like it.

3) Hamas doesn't know how to deal with politics.

4) You need to focus, EH

Well, I didn't ask if you like the video but kudos for at least watching it.

At least we can both agree that Hamas denies the Holocaust seeing how they aired a Holocaust denial 'documentary' on Hamas' own TV station.

shafique wrote:Let me know if anyone does produce the evidence relating to the thread title so we can confirm whether Zahar has indeed contradicted Hamas' clear stance on the subject.

Be wary of people changing the subject or trying to justify this by reeling out previous selective quotes/translations/Memri specials. Keep focus, young one.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist - but on the off chance that perhaps this time round the 'boys' do find some evidence to back up the thread title, I'd like to be kept informed.)

Cheers,
Shafique

Sym, would you like to address the Holocaust denying video that was shown on al-Aqsa TV (Hamas' official television station) or the quotes from high ranking Hamas officials who deny the Holocaust in very clear terms - 'the Holocaust is a lie' seems pretty clear to me?

Perhaps you'll address why Hamas prevented UN run schools from teaching the Holocaust, especially after Hamas officials stated the reason for the banning was because the schools would be teaching a lie?

'the Holocaust is a lie' seems pretty clear to me?

What holocaust?, this so called holocaust was not meant to put jews to extinction like the red indians of America, on the contrary it was an help for them to flee into ME..

^Berrin, may I ask whether you agree or disagree with Hamas' stance on the Holocaust? Sym, may I ask you the same question. :

shafique wrote:
Let's recall the words of Hamas, which continue to be the only definitive, complete and clear statement on the subject:

Hamas' Minister of Information categorically states:

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.

Full article here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... eholocaust

As for this thread:
As I keep repeating, this thread is about a supposed contradiction to this Hamas view by Zahar. Should anyone ever produce a full transcript which shows he has indeed denied the holocaust and gone against Hamas' clear policy above, I will gladly join others in condemning him.


Cheers,
Shafique

Well let me just try to put this into a little bit of context. What officials says and what the govts official stance are two different things. Example : Recently when Dahi Khalfan recently said that there should be a very limited number of expatriates in UAE and if there had to be, he would prefer if they were Arabs.

He is the member of the Executive council and the chief of police of Dubai i,e a govt official and he made that statement on record. But that does not mean thats is the govts official stance on this issue.

Giving the benefit of the doubt even if Zahar did say that does not means that is Hamas's official stance on the issue.

Sure, if Hamas ever actually did accept the Holocaust as their official policy.

But the facts are a different story. A newspaper editorial to a Western paper - that has already been shown to contain a few porkys - has now morphed into Hamas' official position, somehow. Beyond the inventive mental gymnastics some are willing to go through for Hamas, most simply accept what Hamas officials have time and again said to their own people.

And when the rubber hits the road, as the saying goes, we see where Hamas actually stands when it came to when the UN wanted to teach the Holocaust at UN run schools in the Gaza strip.

No newspaper editorial could ever be large enough to cover these inconvenient facts up.

Al Shafique...your persistence to post the same awkward statement from Bassem Naeem, again and again, shows that you know that nobody beleives it.
Can you post it again?

I think the whole world war II was a mess if we talk about genocide of the people of Europe..Nazi Germany took their share of the killings for obvious reasons...killing of few hundreds of thousands of jews were no less than the killing of millions of Russian,Polish, German, Yugoslavian or chinese only to put the world into two camps as Soviet Communists and Euro-American capitalists..

herve - I'm still waiting for anyone to produce the transcript so we can compare what Zahar actually said (in full) with what the Hamas Minister of Information stated was Hamas' stance on the Holocaust.

I found nothing ambiguous or awkward with the clear statement. If you click on link, you'll see that when it was published in the UK newspaper, the headline was:

Hamas condemns the Holocaust

We are not engaged in a religious conflict with Jews; this is a political struggle to free ourselves from occupation and oppression

And he was even clearer in the text - he uses the word 'clear' and says specifically that HAMAS and Palestinian Government DO NOT deny the Holocaust, but see it as a crime against humanity, and one of the worst crimes in modern history. They condemn it.

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.

What seems to be akward, is your side's inability to back up your beliefs with any quote that is complete and not questionable.

I'll continue to repeat that we're waiting for some evidence to check whether Zahar does contradict Hamas' view on the Holocaust. If he does, I'll condemn him. Until then, it looks like YET ANOTHER example of selective spin.

Cheers,
Shafique

symmetric wrote:
1) I couldn't careless about the holocaust. Toxical wastes & garbage should be either burried or combusted.

Disgusting attitude! When I see attitudes like this, even from Jewish and Israeli folk who are persecuting Palestinians - I shake my head because no one seems to have learned anything from the past. Genocide is wrong!!!

Peace cannot happen with ignorant vengeful people with no perspective other than their own spewing hatred out into this world.

Al Shafique, there is no full statement and you know it, hence you asking for it like a broken record.
It was a remark during an interview. Not a speach, not a statement,it came from his heart, unlike that hamas rep who fabricated his statement to smoothen the world opinion on hamas
How more do you want than an authentic AFP press release
http://www.allvoices.com/news/7812746-h ... -holocaust
https://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/tag/mahmud-zahar/

another hamas leader called the holocaust a lie, Younis al-Astal in aninterview with AP
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middle ... holocaust/