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As I thought - you are an expert on Hamas based on one snippet, and 'have no opinion' on Likud. LOL

I have no problem in acknowledging and denouncing all terrorist acts committed by Hamas. I denounced the terrorist acts committed by Irgun (such as blowing up the King David hotel and booby trapping British soldiers and the heinous Deir Yassin massacre).

But that is beside the point.

The point of this thread is that Hamas' clear, categoric and complete statement on their view of the Holocaust is that they

1. Don't deny it
2. Condemn it.

Your snippet is incomplete and I suspect is out of context and misleading (but I don't know, as you haven't shown me it in full yet - and are apparently confused about what he actually said - highlighting a phrase that doesn't appear as a quote in the article).

Perhaps when you have the facts, you can let us know whether Zahar did (after all) contradict the Hamas official line on the Holocaust.

cheers,
Shafique

I am no expert on hamas, only i know that it is a terrorist organization.
The holocaust denial by hamas is well documented

Abdul Rahman el-Jamal, told the BBC that the Holocaust was a "big lie"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8230483.stm

Hamas spiritual leader Yunis al-Astal said teaching children about the murder of 6 million Jews during World War II would be "marketing a lie."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... =sec-world

The palestinian camp committees said they "categorically refuse to let our children be taught this lie created by the Jews and intensified by their media." They offered two rationales: the Holocaust is not a fact, and the U.N. is trying to "mess with our children's emotions."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... holocaust/

Hamas Leader Rantisi: The Holocaust-The Greatest of Lies Funded by the Zionists
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=18086

should i continue?

I see, so they had to set up Hamas so that some people could still deny?...
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html

According to this jewish guy called Jack Berstein who is murdered by Mossad, Jews conspired on themselves by helping holocoust, if they were helping than I doubt that they were the ones pushing for it in the first place!.....

From what I have told you so far, you must have the idea that Israel is a Marxist (socialist/communist) country. This would be correct. But, Israel has three faces: Communism, Fascism and democracy. The Ashkenazi Jews who migrated to Israel from Russia brought with them the ideology of socialism/communism and have put into practice much of that ideology. The Ashkenazi Jews who migrated to Israel from Germany, while sympathetic to communism and support it, tend to favor the practices of Nazi-style fascism. During World War II, in Germany these elite Zionist Ashkenazi Jews worked closely with Hitler’s Gestapo in persecuting the lower class German Jews and delivering them to concentration camps.

Now living in Israel, these elite Zionist Jews, who were well trained in Nazi-style fascism and favor it, have imposed many facets of fascism on Israel. To give the impression that Israel is a democracy, members of the Knesset (Israel Congress) are elected — an odd type of election. This is where Israel’s so-called democracy stops. It doesn’t make any difference which party wins an election, the LIKUD or LABOR, the elite Zionist Jews rule in a dictatorial manner — giving favors to the elite clique and brutally suppressing any dissent.

http://jewsvszionists.wordpress.com/a-t ... st-israel/

.

shafique wrote:I have no problem in acknowledging and denouncing all terrorist acts committed by Hamas. I denounced the terrorist acts committed by Irgun (such as blowing up the King David hotel and booby trapping British soldiers and the heinous Deir Yassin massacre).

As usual, definitions of terrorism are bend in order to support a own view of the world.

Hamas attacking Zionist soldiers: resistance
Zionists attacking British soldiers: terrorists.

Its also called hypocricy.

Herve - Hamas' own words and clear declaration on the Holocaust couldn't be more explicit.

Repeating snippets from various sources doesn't change this fact.

Let me re-quote the clear statement:

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.

I fully understand the desire to believe the spin that some desperately want to believe is true - but I'm just comparing this complete statement from Hamas with the reports that are spun to show the complete opposite stance.

Cheers,
Shafique

So, when hamas leaders say something they should not say these are snippets, and when they say something they should say it is the truth.
You are the one trying to spin around facts and truth, do you actually beleive you convince anyone?
It is all too obvious that you are siding with hamas, a terrorist organization.

herve wrote:So, when a hamas leader says something he should not have said it is a snippet, and when they say something they should say it is the truth.
You are the one trying to spin around facts and truth, do you actually beleive you convince anyone?
It is all too obvious that you are siding with hamas, a terrorist organization.

Hate to get into this discussion and bugger it, but herve its seems your siding with the terrorist organisation the Irgun then, and we follow the same logic then at one point in time majority of Israel's population too was siding with the terrorists when it elected one of Irgun leaders as the prime minister of Israel and I think even the Irish are done for in this case with their support for the IRA afterall the A stands for Army in IRA you know.

Just sayin ?

Hey herve, I'll be the first one to join you in condemning anyone who denies the Holocaust.

It's just the small problem that pro-Israeli propaganda about Hamas on this subject doesn't stand up to even a quick scrutiny.

Take the latest example of Zahar - I haven't actually seen a full quote yet of him actually denying the holocaust, but a translation of something that he is calling a lie.

If you think quoting an organisation in full and questioning snippets which imply the contrary is supporting terrorism or a terrorist organisation, that seems like just an excuse to not actually find out the truth to me. Whatever you think I am or not, it doesn't change the fact that the only complete, comprehensive and clear statement by Hamas in this thread is the one in the OP.

Cheers,
Shafique

desertdudeshj wrote: Hate to get into this discussion and bugger it, but herve its seems your siding with the terrorist organisation the Irgun then, and we follow the same logic then at one point in time majority of Israel's population too was siding with the terrorists when it elected one of Irgun leaders as the prime minister of Israel and I think even the Irish are done for in this case with their support for the IRA afterall the A stands for Army in IRA you know.

Just sayin ?

This thread is about hamas. And anyways:
Irgun does not exist.
likud is not a terrorist organization
How can anyone side with an organization that does not exist

But herve - you seem to be an expert about Muslims in Egypt (calling them hypocrites) and an expert on Hamas' political views (but unable to present anything more than can be found on blogs) - AND you asked me (a Brit) whether I supported Hamas.

I quite rightly asked whether you support Likud/Irgun. (But then again, given that you bizarely think that a white American suicide bomber who flew a plane into a civilian target is NOT a terrorist, why am I not surprised you don't have the courage of your convictions!?)

Anyway - you're right - whatever your views or non-views about Israeli former terrorists are, this thread is actually about Hamas' view of the Holocaust.

They don't deny it, they condemn it.

Spin to the contrary therefore needs to be examined carefully. You've failed so far to do this.

Cheers,
Shafique

I do not beleive you are Britt shafique, but instead that you hold a britt passport as of convenience. I doubt you would ever shed blood for the UK , your country, in a war against an islamic country. Would you?
I have no opinion on irgun, or on the likud, do i need to give an opinion on any party in the world when the discussion is about hamas. What does an opinion on the likud have to do anything about hamas denying the holocaust

I think we are getting to the root of your prejudices herve - you appear to hate everyone with a foreign sounding name.

Again, what you think I am, is as relevant in this thread as your views about former Israeli terrorists. (I said this in the last post - you should read more carefully what's written, my son)

Hamas' views on the Holocaust are given in the OP - and any spin to the contrary needs to be carefully examined. You've failed so far to do this.

(At least with you it is easy to spot when you've run out of arguments - you launch personal insults, wild generalisations and then go quiet for a few days )

Cheers,
Shafique

Maybe you should change your name to Harris or maybe even Lester. Then you might get more credibilty

I dont hate anyone shafique. I am a pacifist, I only say those who hide behind a passport, pretending to be someone else cannot be trusted, and can be dangerous sometime.
Having a britt passport does not make you a Britt at heart, you have to embrace the culture and laws.
When discussing issues related to Islam, muslims, islamic countries, you should put forward first that you are a muslim, and not that you are a britt because it is misleading, to make yourself more beleivable, and you know that.
And sorry if i go for a couple of days, i happen to be busy, i dont have the time like you to spend all day reading haretz tribune

When discussing issues related to Islam, muslims, islamic countries, you should put forward first that you are a muslim, and not that you are a britt because it is misleading, to make yourself more beleivable, and you know that.

You can do better herve..i.e a native britt could perfectly be a revert to islam and still be adva
ocate of palestinians...There are many of them living in the UK, and contribute actively either as a journalist, peace activist, doctors etc etc..It's just that we don't have one of those native English activist/advocate, here on DF..

BTW anyone who reads shafique' posts on DF, would no doubt see that he is a genuine muslim...

desertdudeshj wrote:Maybe you should change your name to Harris or maybe even Lester. Then you might get more credibilty

Nah - If I were to take on a Anglo-Saxon name - I'd choose something like Mr Cholmondley Warner, and then start making jokes about the French and wars to get into character. (Being a Brit with relatives who were in the war, I know quite a few - such as:
Q: What’s the new French flag look like?
A: A white cross emblazoned on a white background!

Buy a French rifle on e-bay : never used, dropped once.
)

Just kidding herve - I don't stereotype peoples as whole.

But nice to see our herve isn't ashamed to air his views that a Brit and a Muslim are mutually exclusive terms. Charming!

However, I can't help feel that these 'observations' are merely distractions from the fact that he only 'believes' Hamas denies the Holocaust and has not real evidence to contradict what they say in the OP.

As I keep saying, we have their clear views - and any snippets/spin which contradict this should be examined closely. Something he still is failing to do!

Tally ho, old chap! what ho?

Its Won Ho...not What ho....Won ho chung, brilliant comedian I say . Can't find many Koreans who speak fluent Arabic now can you.

Steady on old chap - we'll have none of that foreign talk here! (Off topic alarm just went off).

LOL

Cheers,
Shafique

Aye Aye Cap'in

shafique wrote:I think we are getting to the root of your prejudices herve - you appear to hate everyone with a foreign sounding name.

Again, what you think I am, is as relevant in this thread as your views about former Israeli terrorists. (I said this in the last post - you should read more carefully what's written, my son)

Hamas' views on the Holocaust are given in the OP - and any spin to the contrary needs to be carefully examined. You've failed so far to do this.

(At least with you it is easy to spot when you've run out of arguments - you launch personal insults, wild generalisations and then go quiet for a few days )

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, I'm sure that Herve is more than capable of answering your posts but i cannot ignore your comment without replying. Herve does not go quiet for a few days because he has run out of insults. Believe it or not he has bigger fish to fry than you at this current time.
He is totally right when he says you hide behind your British passport, you are a Muslim first and always will be. You would never take up arms against your own. What would you do if conscription was returned for British citizens? I somehow could not see you patrolling the streets of Afghanistan or Iraq in our so called war against terror. Herve has been in the services of his country, he is a hero, as all our service men are. You would do well to remember who you are talking to when sitting on the beach with your computer. He has first hand experience of the things he talks about.
You can make out that you are a well balanced individual but making snide remarks about a persons country's flags and then saying you are only joking is like me calling DDS a fat f--ker with a smiley face, only I got a ban for it.
Changing your name to something English sounding doesn't change who you are, and that is a foreigner who has been able to secure himself a British passport. You will never be a true Brit.

As I said to herve BM, what he thinks I am - and your views on Brits who have different colour skins to you, is really not relevant in this thread about Hamas' clear views on the Holocaust.

The fact that on a number of threads herve made some generic statements based on some 'belief' he holds, and when challenged with evidence he comes back with ad hominem attacks and then goes quiet for a while before returning to quote on other threads is clearly a pattern. But, that's just an observation - empty drums to make a lot of noise as well!

Incidentally, you've already asked me whether I'd fight for Britain. Your memory is obviously failing you - as I have already said I would and indeed members of my family have.

There are Muslims in the British Army right now in Afghanistan and Iraq, some have made the ultimate sacrifice.

Shame on you and herve for considering these brave soldiers as 'not a true Brit'.

But, your prejudices aside - this thread is about what Hamas thinks about the Holocaust. They don't deny it, they condemn it.

Cheers,
Shafique

Changing your name to something English sounding doesn't change who you are, and that is a foreigner who has been able to secure himself a British passport. You will never be a true Brit.

Sorry I just can't resist to ask this question on this thread!

Do you think BM you can be a true Britt since you are a jew? If so why can't shafique be?

Couldn't someone who is a native Britt revert to islam and still genuinely defend himself/his country?

IMO, There is only one true guidance, and that is the guidance of my creator..It would never work through your or my assumption, according to your likes or my likes but according to the one who is created both you and me, only through his guidance that we can eachive worldwide peace and protect humanity.Otherwise one way or another we will continue to fight subjective reasons. Defense of humanity does not recognise any race, natiaonallity, creed or what have you..
Before we were Brits, pakistanies, emiraties, we were just Adam and Eve...
If you look at it, this way, you can resolve hell of a lot problems and live in peace in any environment..

Berrin - I actually don't mind ad hominem attacks too much. Sometimes they get under my skin (I am human) - but when it is over the internet, it is usually a sign that the other party has run out of valid arguments.

Whether I'm considered a true brit or not (or whether those Muslim soldiers in the military fighting for Queen and country are true brits) really has nothing to with this thread's topic - i.e. Hamas' clear statement about how it views the Holocaust.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, seeing as you were having a go at Herve on this topic, I replied to it. By the way, there is nothing wrong with my memory.

Shaf, seeing as you were having a go at Herve on this topic, I replied to it.

But Herve too has a go at Shafique , not only him but muslims in general as well..I have yet to see him agree to anything a muslim says..

That's probably because he doesn't.

Ok, folks - now that the mudslinging has died down..

Let's recall the words of Hamas, which continue to be the only definitive, complete and clear statement on the subject:

Hamas' Minister of Information categorically states:

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.

Full article in OP and originally published here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... eholocaust

Cheers,
Shafique

Why do you feel the need to repost that? Apart from trying to get more reaction of course.

For easy reference and to bring us all back to the topic.

Cheers,
Shafique