Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk Philosophy and Religion Forums

WEll,
Kanelli, Lets agree to disagree on some points.

Hope time prove we both wrong and the viloance is just a minor thing that will go by time and leaves Iraq as united nation, and not be divided into minor ones.

I agree with you about Iraqi people should be the ones toppling their leader.... Yeah some Iraqi's might disagree, but.. hay, do they like how their country is doing now....


Cheer Kanelli

Let's hope yshimy. I too wish the same for Iraq. It is very frustrating to see so little progress on reconstruction and solid government because of all the insurgent attacks. The coalition can't leave until the country is secure, and that is another reason why insurgents are causing problems. If they keep the coalition hanging around they figure the world will get upset and put pressure on them to leave too early - allowing perfect conditions for certain sectarian groups to take power.

Kanelli,

It is a visiouce circle, the country will not get better as long as the collation forces is there, and in the same time if they left, there will be struggle for power.

Anyway the struggle for power is comming, so i prefer the forces Leave ASAP leaving a UN peace keeping forces (usless, but better than nothing) and give it a time for the country to recover.

As long as the Collition forces are there, i'm sure no progress will happen. As we (as arabs) see any forign existance in our lands by force as occupatoin despite any political naming the media or the west give it.

So the regular iraqi in the street or the insurgence forces or any sect, just see it as occupational forces. so there will always be a resistance.

Just like when the English and the French were in Egypt. Just like when the french where in Algeria, and we saw how long it took Algeria to recover.

yshimy wrote:ROM,
It wouldn't help trying to assume things between Sunni and Shiaa.

~snip~
If you don't know, don't assume, if you have sources of what you are talking about, please provide them, but don't let them be sources of unknown people or people of ignorance.

Kanelli,
Peace be upon you all.

God Bless Iraq

Are not the masses merely "unknown people or people of ignorance" ?
A Leader may make a statement but, it is the common man on the street which can foment rebellion and civil war.

Now, granted I do believe the majority of posters @ http://www.ummah.net/forum/ are "unknown people or people of ignorance" and it is what these folks SCREAM each and every day from which I have formed this opinion on.
It is a Muslim Forum and yet, Shia are often banned simply for being Shia or else they are confronted with death threats etc...

So, who shall I believe? One man or the masses and their shouting for revenge against the Shia ?

What is your fascination with Ummah.Net?

Liban wrote:What is your fascination with Ummah.Net?

It is not a fascination, I am only trying to point to where I formed my opinions regarding Islam and Muslim sentiments towards me and my fellow countrymen.

I am actually relieved to have found an alternative view to that which I've been accustomed recently.

what you are saying is extremely ....... unresonable.

So you form you opinion about a specific issue that existed since more than 1000 years on a situation you faced in specific forum????

It is like saying that white people are racist based on an experience in a KKK meeting..... totally nonsense.

Cheers

yshimy wrote:what you are saying is extremely ....... unresonable.

So you form you opinion about a specific issue that existed since more than 1000 years on a situation you faced in specific forum????

It is like saying that white people are racist based on an experience in a KKK meeting..... totally nonsense.

Cheers

Well that Forum has posters from all around this Planet and not just a classroom.
People from very diverse backgrounds and education are present and when confronted each and every one of them stated plainly that it was perfectly OK, Islamically to have killed all those people on 9/11

Not knowing enough of Islam, I take a muslim for their words.
What else am I to think?
I certainly wouldn't want to have those same conversations IN PERSON with someone defending the deaths of 3000+ of my fellow citizens.

So, should I separate ISLAM from MUSLIMS ?

Americans and their Israeli agents have killed hundreds of thousands of Arabs through the years.

You not serperating the acts of a few from the religion of Islam is like me saying there is no difference between American people and their murderious regime and satellite regime.

With all respect......

Your post reflects even great ignorance, or .... huge bad luck.

Just make a new post and check, i'm sure the percentage of the people who are against 9/11 will be double those who are with. i'm talking muslims only..

Being frustrate from the US as superpower and wanted to have revenge from all what happened doesn't justify killing civilians.

I wonder where you met group of muslim people who are 100% of them supports 9/11.........i think it was the Qaeda camp..

Man, you have been looking for birds deep in the ocean i think.

castellano wrote:its obvious that we are not understanding each other here ,,, maybe ROM and chocoholic think that am being agressive with them and making them take the blame of that danish newspaper ,, well,, its not like this . we muslims here are talking about an apology would have settled everything ok , you guys are talking about the violance from some muslims , i agree that what happened is wrong , you agree that the publishing of those cartoons was a stupid idea, now , what do we argue about here ??? is the freedom of speach ,, in plain words ,, in this world where everybody is trying to look for a little gap where the peace would appear for the whole world , including Denmark , - which originally wasnt involved in any isult against muslims before-

1- Do you think that Denmark or any country needed this kind of crisis to happen ???

2-dont you think that even after what happened its really a mandate from the danish government to take possitive steps towords REALLY SOLVING the problem ???

3- if you put yourself in our place as muslims , dont you think you will always feel insulted by that if nothing is taking place by Danish government ??? i know you may say NO , but you have to REALLY put yourself in our place , ESPECIALLY , in the circle of all the frustration that muslims are suffering from the western policies ????


if the problem would have been solved by ignoring the subject ,, believe me , muslims would have ignored , but its just getting worse and worse everyday , and the examples are so many .


another thing ,, when you talk about the violence that happened- WHICH I COMPLETELY BELIEVE THAT ITS WRONG - you only focus on it as if we we were not insulted ,, its only highly focused when violance come from muslims , i dont see the western government rush to condemn the violence against muslims as when governments in muslims country rush to condemn the violance agains any non-muslims or their properties ,,, and here lies the motive for the frustration that all muslims suffer ,, all the west is talking about mutual understanding between the nations , while we see totally the opposite of that !!!!!!!!!!!

I dont know if this was to me...

If you offendent Jesus, we would not see it in Denmark, and if we did, we would think that was maybe stupid, and then we would think the world would go on.
We are used to attacks on everything in Denmark, so stop learning me about freedom of spreech. No one is safe from cartoons in DK. The primeminister is the most drawn man in Denmark. If you did it in most countries in Arabian, you would be in prison.
We dont say apology when we haven't done anything illegal. If our Primeminister had been given an apology, he would have been fired by the parlament next day.

I think the only reason why this massive attack on Denmark, is because we dont have the same economic power as USA. Denmark is at little country, so it would be easy for 1.300.000.000 people to hate 5.000.000 people with a little economic strength. If we would have a chance to boycut arab countries, I dont think this madness would have come so far.

There is also islamic powers in Denmark who wish a "war" between Denmark and the muslim world. These powers is some Imam's who have traveled around and been telling lies about the whole situation.

Danishguy wrote:

castellano wrote:its obvious that we are not understanding each other here ,,, maybe ROM and chocoholic think that am being agressive with them and making them take the blame of that danish newspaper ,, well,, its not like this . we muslims here are talking about an apology would have settled everything ok , you guys are talking about the violance from some muslims , i agree that what happened is wrong , you agree that the publishing of those cartoons was a stupid idea, now , what do we argue about here ??? is the freedom of speach ,, in plain words ,, in this world where everybody is trying to look for a little gap where the peace would appear for the whole world , including Denmark , - which originally wasnt involved in any isult against muslims before-

1- Do you think that Denmark or any country needed this kind of crisis to happen ???

2-dont you think that even after what happened its really a mandate from the danish government to take possitive steps towords REALLY SOLVING the problem ???

3- if you put yourself in our place as muslims , dont you think you will always feel insulted by that if nothing is taking place by Danish government ??? i know you may say NO , but you have to REALLY put yourself in our place , ESPECIALLY , in the circle of all the frustration that muslims are suffering from the western policies ????


if the problem would have been solved by ignoring the subject ,, believe me , muslims would have ignored , but its just getting worse and worse everyday , and the examples are so many .


another thing ,, when you talk about the violence that happened- WHICH I COMPLETELY BELIEVE THAT ITS WRONG - you only focus on it as if we we were not insulted ,, its only highly focused when violance come from muslims , i dont see the western government rush to condemn the violence against muslims as when governments in muslims country rush to condemn the violance agains any non-muslims or their properties ,,, and here lies the motive for the frustration that all muslims suffer ,, all the west is talking about mutual understanding between the nations , while we see totally the opposite of that !!!!!!!!!!!

I dont know if this was to me...

If you offendent Jesus, we would not see it in Denmark, and if we did, we would think that was maybe stupid, and then we would think the world would go on.
We are used to attacks on everything in Denmark, so stop learning me about freedom of spreech. No one is safe from cartoons in DK. The primeminister is the most drawn man in Denmark. If you did it in most countries in Arabian, you would be in prison.
We dont say apology when we haven't done anything illegal. If our Primeminister had been given an apology, he would have been fired by the parlament next day.

I think the only reason why this massive attack on Denmark, is because we dont have the same economic power as USA. Denmark is at little country, so it would be easy for 1.300.000.000 people to hate 5.000.000 people with a little economic strength. If we would have a chance to boycut arab countries, I dont think this madness would have come so far.

There is also islamic powers in Denmark who wish a "war" between Denmark and the muslim world. These powers is some Imam's who have traveled around and been telling lies about the whole situation.

onetime u tsay the cartoons are ok and then u say imams are lying. Well it started on Sep 2005, and imams got together to convince it's wrong but ur president dumbo knew ot was sesitive tpic and tried to mess with it and got what he deserved. Slandering the Prophet is same as slandering Holocaust victims. Now if u did draw a cartoon ridiculing Holocaust victim wont u be spanked hard ? Where will be ur feedom of speech? There is nothing like complete freedom, if u use that freedom u have to face the consequences.

Chocoholic wrote:. Religions will come and go, !

Sorry my religion came and never gone!

sniper420 wrote:

Danishguy wrote:

castellano wrote:
onetime u tsay the cartoons are ok and then u say imams are lying. Well it started on Sep 2005, and imams got together to convince it's wrong but ur president dumbo knew ot was sesitive tpic and tried to mess with it and got what he deserved. Slandering the Prophet is same as slandering Holocaust victims. Now if u did draw a cartoon ridiculing Holocaust victim wont u be spanked hard ? Where will be ur feedom of speech? There is nothing like complete freedom, if u use that freedom u have to face the consequences.

hmm... yes there are consequences with every thing you do. But is was drawings to the danish people, who understand it in another way than people outside Denmark. Forget it and move on!

The imam's who lied: it have been proved that 12 imam's from Denmark travel to egyth, and show some of the drawings from Jyllands Posten, but they showed also false pictures, pictures from a french pig-festival (I don't know what they are doing in France???) but they showed it in a way so the people in Egyth belived that Danes had called Muhammed a pig, which NEVER have happen. These 12 dangerous people, who thinks they speech for every muslim in Denmark, have made a huge thing out of something small in a newspaper.

Danishguy wrote:

sniper420 wrote:

Danishguy wrote:

castellano wrote:
onetime u tsay the cartoons are ok and then u say imams are lying. Well it started on Sep 2005, and imams got together to convince it's wrong but ur president dumbo knew ot was sesitive tpic and tried to mess with it and got what he deserved. Slandering the Prophet is same as slandering Holocaust victims. Now if u did draw a cartoon ridiculing Holocaust victim wont u be spanked hard ? Where will be ur feedom of speech? There is nothing like complete freedom, if u use that freedom u have to face the consequences.

hmm... yes there are consequences with every thing you do. But is was drawings to the danish people, who understand it in another way than people outside Denmark. Forget it and move on!

The imam's who lied: it have been proved that 12 imam's from Denmark travel to egyth, and show some of the drawings from Jyllands Posten, but they showed also false pictures, pictures from a french pig-festival (I don't know what they are doing in France???) but they showed it in a way so the people in Egyth belived that Danes had called Muhammed a pig, which NEVER have happen. These 12 dangerous people, who thinks they speech for every muslim in Denmark, have made a huge thing out of something small in a newspaper.

Hmmmmm something is fishy.... enlighten me more about the "pig" festival and back ur claims with reliable sources not some Danish whining newspaper something like BBC, AP etc.

Danishguy wrote:
I dont know if this was to me...

If you offendent Jesus, we would not see it in Denmark, and if we did, we would think that was maybe stupid, and then we would think the world would go on.
We are used to attacks on everything in Denmark, so stop learning me about freedom of spreech. No one is safe from cartoons in DK. The primeminister is the most drawn man in Denmark. If you did it in most countries in Arabian, you would be in prison.
We dont say apology when we haven't done anything illegal. If our Primeminister had been given an apology, he would have been fired by the parlament next day.

I think the only reason why this massive attack on Denmark, is because we dont have the same economic power as USA. Denmark is at little country, so it would be easy for 1.300.000.000 people to hate 5.000.000 people with a little economic strength. If we would have a chance to boycut arab countries, I dont think this madness would have come so far.

There is also islamic powers in Denmark who wish a "war" between Denmark and the muslim world. These powers is some Imam's who have traveled around and been telling lies about the whole situation.

If you offendent Jesus


in fact it was for you and others ,,, anyway ,,,first of all ,, we wouldnt ,, not even one single muslim ,, would under any case insult Jesus pbuh,,, on the contrary ,,, WE RESPECT JESUS EVEN MORE THAN CHRISTIANS ,,, am not trying to offend christians by this ,, but its a fact that you may search .


We are used to attacks on everything in Denmark

SEE ??? YOU ARE USED TO ATTACKS IN EVERYTHING . where ??? IN DENMARK !!!!!! well,, now we are not only not used to it ,,,, but we dont and will not accept it that the Prophet Mohammad pbuh is being a topic of such bullshit . Freedom of speach is not an execuse for any body ,, Danish or non-danish ,,, to express his freedom of speech in this way . a lot still consider that terrorism comes from Muslims ,, but they dont insult our Prophet ,, they just express their opinion that they think that terrorism comes from muslims ,, and this is a subject of free discussion .



so stop learning me about freedom of spreech


you should have said " stop teaching me about freedom of speech" but any way ,, i think you are teaching the whole world the about the freedom of insulting ..... i think the Danish Dictionaries shows the meaning of insulting as : speech ..... i am sure there is a misunderstanding ..... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




The primeminister is the most drawn man in Denmark

there is no comparision between your prime minister and The Prophet Mohammad pbuh,,,,, and its not coz your prime minister is danish ,, we dont compare anybody to the Prophet Mohammad pbuh ,,, you can draw our prime ministers in cartoons ,, no one would care !!!!!!!!



If you did it in most countries in Arabian, you would be in prison.


well,, yes i agree on this ,,, but we are not speaking about the Government systems here ,,, and how their people would be treated if they attack their governments with their opinions . WE ARE SPEAKING ABOUT SOMETHING HAS NOTHING TO DO , WITH THE ARAB GOVERNMENTS ,, IT IS SOMETHING sacered FOR EVERY MUSLIM . so, allow me to say ,, it was silly even to mention this thing here .



I think the only reason why this massive attack on Denmark, is because we dont have the same economic power as USA. Denmark is at little country, so it would be easy for 1.300.000.000 people to hate 5.000.000 people with a little economic strength. If we would have a chance to boycut arab countries, I dont think this madness would have come so far.


well well well,, do i hear a kind of a disperate tone here ?????!!!!!!!!!!!! its obvious to every body - i think - that you are off the wagon now ,,,, USA has been for a long time the topic of attacks from arabs opinions ,,, i am not speaking about the governments here ,, ok ??? but even when something insulting to islam comes from usa nationals ,, you will hear usa spokesman ,, AT LEAST apologizing ,,, athough in my opinion it doesnt show the good intentions ,, but that apology is still considered , but your PRIME MINISTER didnt !!!!!!!!!!. and not to mention the 9/11 event !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so what does that has to do with those silly numbers you were giving me about populations .. NONSENSE




There is also islamic powers in Denmark who wish a "war" between Denmark and the muslim world. These powers is some Imam's who have traveled around and been telling lies about the whole situation


islamic powers in Denmark who wish war between Denmark and muslims ???? in my opinion you are talking about the painter who draw the carrecatures !!!!!! disregarding the word "islamic" ,,, you are still talking about those imams who travelled to Egypt - if true - ,,, in my opinion !!! its good ,, at least it shows how you think about us ,,, i dont know about the "pig" thing ,,, i mean there is no need to do that ,, coz as i said before ,,, one cartoon depicting the prophet pbuh ,, is enough to insult us . and make us angry .

Why is insulting prophet Mohammed(pbuh) freedom of speech, but denying the holocoust or questioning the holocoust a crime in most of these European countries that freedom of Speech to populish insulting cartoons against the prophet of God.

Why Irving serving 3 years in jail for speaking his mind???

Lionheart wrote:Why is insulting prophet Mohammed(pbuh) freedom of speech, but denying the holocoust or questioning the holocoust a crime in most of these European countries that freedom of Speech to populish insulting cartoons against the prophet of God.

Why Irving serving 3 years in jail for speaking his mind???

this question has been repeated over 34 times...

Lionheart, this has been discussed in other threads.

Many people think it is hypocritical to jail someone for denying the holocaust. People are well aware that there is some hypocrisy applied in some cases of freedom of speech. Humans are not perfect! Despite this, freedom of speech is very valuable - just ask the journalists in China who are locked up or killed - not to mention citizens in many countries who want to speak out and change things in their countries.

In my opinion, everyone should be able to say what they want - it is up to others to educate on the issue to counter-act the damage of the abused free speech. For example, educate people about the historical facts of the holocaust. Also, educate people about the prophet Mohammed and how making an image of him is very offensive to Islam.

Burning property, threating people with death and killing people is NOT the way, neither is banning free speech.

kanelli wrote:Lionheart, this has been discussed in other threads.

Many people think it is hypocritical to jail someone for denying the holocaust. People are well aware that there is some hypocrisy applied in some cases of freedom of speech. Humans are not perfect! Despite this, freedom of speech is very valuable - just ask the journalists in China who are locked up or killed - not to mention citizens in many countries who want to speak out and change things in their countries.

In my opinion, everyone should be able to say what they want - it is up to others to educate on the issue to counter-act the damage of the abused free speech. For example, educate people about the historical facts of the holocaust. Also, educate people about the prophet Mohammed and how making an image of him is very offensive to Islam.

Burning property, threating people with death and killing people is NOT the way, neither is banning free speech.

well said Kanelli. I agree education is better way. But u have see there are different types of ppl with different kind of mentality and it's sometimes necessary to supress freedom of speech on certain sensitive matters like Holocaust and religion. There are always ppl in both sides with adrenaline intmidating and forcing their ideas over others that's reason freedom of speech must b restricted over certain topics

Speech liberty !!! A lie. Every country puts limits. For example, here in France, a lot of people stood up to defend the speech liberty. But when a french representative (Vanest) says what he thinks about homosexuality he is convicted in a trial and nobody to defend the speech liberty. And when a humorist (Dieudoné) makes fun of jewish fondamentalists, the whole France says he is racist against jewish people ?! I think it is a sort of unique thought.

For the people who don’t know what does the prophet Mohammed means to Muslim people, I’m very sorry. I wish I can give an example. But there is nothing in the universe is even close to the prophet Mohammed. So I don’t blame you if you don’t understand why Muslim people love this Man.

About the freedom of speech, (Your freedom ends where the next person's freedom begins) and as the Prophet Mohammed said “If you have good things to say, say them, but if you don’t, you better keep silent”. The freedom of speech is usually a need for people who suffer from suppression and it’s a practice for the people who enjoy the civilized life. In both cases it’s a way for building and improving. What we saw in the Danish magazines was a cheep try to increase the gab between the civilizations and enhance the clash between them.

For those who believe in God, do you think that we have been created to finish each other? I believe that Gad gave us brains to be able to tolerate each other not to undertake the ability of each other, judge each other and play the role of the God.

Comrade, the same can be said for Muslims who don't understand that a Danish editor and cartoonists could underestimate the subject and foolishly print the cartoons - treating the subject like how Christianity is treated (fair game subject). After, they refuse to do something about it because of the principle of free speech.

I can understand both perspectives - but many people can't. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

In the end, these are only cartoons. The fact that even one person has lost their life because of the cartoons is just ing. Human lives are more important! This is why peaceful protest is the only ethical way to acheive the goal of letting the West know that they need to draw the line at publishing pictures of Mohammed. Lets get some perspective here!

Good reply from Kanelli and totally agree. Plus also very sad to note that the only people to have lost their lives over the whole thing have been muslims - very sad indeed.

yshimy wrote:

kanelli wrote:It was a combination of both poor judgement on the part of the newspaper editor and abuse of the situation by radical Muslims.

What the Hell is wrong with you people???? Can't you have a fair judgment????

What about the PM who refused to meet 11 ambassador from Muslim countries who came to him to solve the issue prior to all this fuss????? Now he is not the cause??????????

Now he is running after them to ease the impact after the situation became serious and their economy is on danger. So The "Freedom of speech" supporting Danish government are appologizing not because they belive they hurt the muslims feeling, or because they belive what they did is wrong, but because their economy is in danger. What great morals, really a great country...!!!!!
The muslims in Denmark had a very very good response, they didn't riot, they didn't go angry and their reaction was very civilized, they objected through the leagal channels (Their Embassies) the went to peace march, they sent letters.

What Freaking Radical Muslims you talk about here????? What Freaking cartoons wrongfully sent to Egypt????? i was there in spetember, we didn't see any photos, we only knew about someone drawing our prophet as a terrorist.

Guys, have some sense, Don't be fooled by the Brainwashing Media that you are exposed too, flip the channels and have both sides opinions and decide.

Kanelli, you better change the color of your car, as i can track you with your current color
Peace

Muslim are so so selffish ,what abaut all the cartoon muslim has draw for so many years abaut jews an their faith ,what abaut the churches they had burn down all over the world
Ruin the symbol of Hindu's every where

How blind you are in your selffiness
An the way muslim has reacting the bomb in the turban speech the true

I soth that muslim was not allow to worship Muhammed,but you do an you don't care abaut the QURAN
when american drop the Quran down the toilet there was not all the foss,beacourse USA was to big for the mulim world
now they finaly has a "tiny" country they think they can moch (it's liek when islamist shut a bunch of schoolchildren )

SO DROP ALL YOUR HYPOCRITES "MONAFEK"

Reading hadiit abaut Muhamed (PHU) BUKHARI: how can enybody respect the man', is a mistery for all other than muslim
sorry i think somebody has hijack your religion

Liban wrote:Americans and their Israeli agents have killed hundreds of thousands of Arabs through the years.

You not serperating the acts of a few from the religion of Islam is like me saying there is no difference between American people and their murderious regime and satellite regime.

Wrong again dear, Sadam has kill a lot more muslim, than jews or americans ever had done,an muslim kills muslim, sad enougf

Miller, you are very biased in your comments.

yshimy, maybe the Danish embassador and PM to didn't feel that it was their duty to apologise for cartoons that a private newspaper had printed. The government had nothing to do with it, and they probably didn't see what the fuss was about. It was only after the situation got out of hand that diplomatic actions were taken. Seriously, a small Danish paper prints some cartoons and look at the reaction! How was ANYONE in Denmark to guess that the situation would get so out of hand?

Too many people would rather demonise the Danish or claim that there was some kind of conspiracy - but then again there are always some people who look for elaborate and juicy explanations and theories for why simple things happen.

kanelli wrote:Comrade, the same can be said for Muslims who don't understand that a Danish editor and cartoonists could underestimate the subject and foolishly print the cartoons - treating the subject like how Christianity is treated (fair game subject). After, they refuse to do something about it because of the principle of free speech.

I can understand both perspectives - but many people can't. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

In the end, these are only cartoons. The fact that even one person has lost their life because of the cartoons is just ing. Human lives are more important! This is why peaceful protest is the only ethical way to acheive the goal of letting the West know that they need to draw the line at publishing pictures of Mohammed. Lets get some perspective here!

Muslim always think they should be specely treated
You don't se christians make such a foss beacourse they can be christians in Saudia or own a bibel wet out end up in jail
An i could go on an on abaut muslim selffiness

In Denmark muslim have a crimerate 70% an that how it is in every EU country.(specily in rape an violens)
So we have a hard time to believe they are so so "holy"when it come too a cartoon

Miller, I think your comments are a little overzealous and can't really be justified.

I'd like to know where you get your statistics from as I really can't believe what you've just written.

miller, where did you get your statistic from that Danish Muslims have a 70% crime rate? I really want to see evidence of that.

I feel sorry for you that you have such a dislike for Muslims, because not all are radicals - only a small group causes the problems we see. Comments like these that you give here do nothing to make relations between Muslims and non-Muslims better.