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shafique · May 19, 2010

So we agree that Naeem DOES indeed satisfy the criterion you laid out - he is a member of Hamas and was speaking for Hamas.

Thanks.

I repeat - his statement is categoric and full, the other snippets you provided are just that 'snippets' and therefore suspicious (given your track record). I've conceded that these snippets are corrected by Naeems categoric statement. The question is why should we believe your view instead of Hamas' official spokesman?

Surely you are not going to blame him for using the statistic that was calculated not by Hamas and used at the UN, and most Media outlets? If the figure is wrong, surely the Israeli Prison service will have released corrected figures? Please provide them. Your 'Elder of Zion' can't even divide two numbers correctly (just do a quick check of his 'calculations' and work out how many prisoners would be jailed if 23,000 were jailed each year from 1967 onwards)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · May 19, 2010

You're free to conveniently reject the quotes from that reuters article. My guess is that most everyone else, however, won't.

Oh, and if the quotes or anything else in that article was wrong, Hamas never issued a statement about any mistakes in the article.

Funny that.

shafique · May 19, 2010

You're squirming like a long squirmy thing...

I'm enjoying your excuses though - first you asked for a Hamas spokesman and thought the Minister of information was a 'random' person, and now it appears that your scatter gun approach of snippets will address the fact that Hamas' own words categorically contradict your belief.

Did you check out the calculations made by 'Elder of Zyon' and notice he can't divide two numbers together? I haven't been able to find an alternative estimate of the numbers of Palestinians arrested by Israel since 1967 that comes from an official source - can you? The only 'evidence' is some back of the envelope calculations by a blogger (who seems to be using a non-Israeli calculator - i.e. one that doesn't work

)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · May 19, 2010

first you asked for a Hamas spokesman and thought the Minister of information was a 'random' person

I'm not aware of asking for a Hamas spokesman, especially since I was aware of who Mr Naeem, or whatever his name is, since I googled his name at the start of the thread.

But perhaps you could jog my memory and actually quote me this time around?

As for the random bit, the reuters article also quotes Hamas spokesmen who deny the holocaust.

Really, the only person squirming is the one who decides on his own to randomly ignore reuters articles.

shafique · May 19, 2010

I'm not ignoring any articles - I maintained from the outset that Hamas' view of the Holocaust is categoric and clear, and contradicts snippets of quotes out there. Any articles from 2008 (when Hamas made the categoric statement) therefore need to be re-examined in light of this information.

As for your use of the word 'random' - you can do a quick search of the previous page and you'll see the context in which you used it and how I responded to it (perhaps I misinterpreted what you were saying).

[Does quick check to see if squriming..] Nope.

(BTW, if I'm too retarded to have a discussion with when it comes to a question you asked me to start a thread on... what are we doing in this thread, which I started.... something does not compute??

I suspect it is because you can't come up with a scientific explanation for the Bible's claim that the earth stopped rotating for a day, despite saying we should 'discuss' this in another thread! Happy to quote you saying this, if you wish.)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · May 19, 2010

does not compute does not compute.

Hey, any time with that quote where I supposedly asked for a Hamas spokesman...

I'm guessing this is another case of poor reading comprehension and an over active imagination.

shafique · May 19, 2010

Perhaps it is and I misunderstood your reaction to the categoric, clear and complete statement by Hamas on their stance on the Holocaust which contradicts the snippets (some before, some after this Hamas statement).

my bad.

Glad we cleared that up then. (As I said, you can still do a search for your use of the word 'random' and my reaction to it

)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · May 19, 2010

Moving on - do you have an 'official' number for the numbers of Palestinians detained by Israel since 1967?

shafique wrote:Did you check out the calculations made by 'Elder of Zyon' and notice he can't divide two numbers together? I haven't been able to find an alternative estimate of the numbers of Palestinians arrested by Israel since 1967 that comes from an official source - can you? The only 'evidence' is some back of the envelope calculations by a blogger (who seems to be using a non-Israeli calculator - i.e. one that doesn't work )

I've looked, but have only come up with the ones from the Human rights organisation in Palestine which was used in the original article here, and also used at the UN and in other media reports around the world.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · May 20, 2010

Perhaps it is and I misunderstood your reaction to the categoric, clear and complete statement by Hamas on their stance on the Holocaust which contradicts the snippets (some before, some after this Hamas statement).

Oh, so now all the members of Hamas have written articles in Western papers reassuring us that they believe in the historical reality of the holocaust?

Err, maybe not.

-- Thu May 20, 2010 3:48 am --

Protesting what it said were plans to teach eighth-graders in U.N. schools about the Holocaust, the Hamas-affiliated Popular Committee of Palestinian refugees sent an open letter to the chief of UNRWA offices calling the Holocaust "a lie made up by the Zionists" and demanding it "immediately" erase the part that speaks about the Holocaust from the Palestinian pupils' curriculum. Husam Ahmed, the Popular Committee's coordinator in the Gaza Strip, said the material, which was to be included in a course on human rights, "was formed in a way that shows sympathy with the Jews".[1]

The interior ministry of the Hamas de facto government in Gaza expressed astonishment over the UNRWA curriculum's acknowledgement of the Holocaust." "We reject teaching our pupils such thoughts that contradicts with our Palestinian beliefs," said the interior ministry statement, which called on the ministry of education "to check if such news is right."[2]

The head of Hamas' education committee in Gaza, Abdul Rahman el-Jamal, said that the Holocaust was a "big lie".[4] Meanwhile, Hamas Education Minister Muhammad Askol criticized UNRWA, saying it was not respecting Hamas's "sovereignty" over Gaza. He said he planned to ask for a meeting with agency officials to "assure the necessary coordination".[5]

Hamas spiritual leader Yunis al-Astal said teaching children about the Nazi genocide of Jews would be "marketing a lie", and characterized the possible introduction of the subject into Gaza schools as a "war crime".[5]

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said that Hamas rejects any attempt to introduce the Holocaust into the curriculum as "a kind of normalization with Israel and an attempt to bridge the psychological gap between Israel and the Palestinians".[2]

Jamila al-Shanti, a Hamas legislative official, said: "Talk about the Holocaust and the execution of the Jews contradicts and is against our culture, our principles, our traditions, values, heritage and religion".[5]

Mustafa al-Sawwaf, editor of the Hamas-run newspaper Filastin, said the U.N. "should also be prevented from implementing this destructive policy that harms our history and civilization as well as our people's culture."[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas%E2%8 ... _responses

shafique · May 20, 2010

Please look up what I said before about your snippets from wiki (and Fox and Memri etc) and compare them with the - I repeat -

complete, comprehensive and clear statement by Hamas.

None of your snippets are complete, especially the ones after 2008.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · May 20, 2010

Uh-oh. Unfortunately, the snippets aren't from Fox News. Not that it would matter to me if they were.

They were from Reuters and the Associated Press.

I can understand that you don't like to confront the facts showing that Hamas denies the holocaust.

Rather, you would take a propaganda piece written to a Western audience reassuring all of us gullible to believe the author that he represents Hamas' views.

What, did Hamas take a vote on the issue of the holocaust really happening before he published his article? Funnily enough, the author never cites any official party line or statement by Hamas to support what he wants others to believe.

In any event, I won't waste too much time on the subject. It was already shown that most Hamas members do not believe the holocaust happened. That you won't believe Reuters and the Associated Press is your problem, not mine.

I also doubt that anyone else believes the author's claims either.

shafique · May 20, 2010

Snippets are snippets, the complete and comprehensive and clear quote comes from Hamas.

'nuff said

Edit, actually - it is worth showing the relevant CLEAR and COMPREHENSIVE statement again:

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Jul 19, 2010

Let's review what Hamas' complete, comprehensive and clear stance is on Judaism - well, that's in the first post - here's a relevant portion from it:

The plight of our people is not the product of a religious conflict between us and the Jews in Palestine or anywhere else: the aims and positions of today's Hamas have been repeatedly spelled out by its leadership, for example in Hamas's 2006 programme for government. The conflict is of a purely political nature: it is between a people who have come under occupation and an oppressive occupying power.

Our right to resistance against occupation is recognised by all conventions and religious traditions. The Jews are for us the people of a sacred book who suffered persecution in European lands. Whenever they sought refuge, Muslim and Arab lands provided them with safe havens. It was in our midst that they enjoyed peace and prosperity; many of them held leading positions in Muslim countries.

After almost a century of Zionist colonial and racist oppression, some Palestinians find it hard to imagine that some of their oppressors are the sons and daughters of those who were themselves oppressed and massacred.

Compare this with the EDL - whose protestations that they aren't loons has been tested and found wanted by investigations. Loon central desperately have cobbled together quotes which purport to show Hamas' stance to be different from above (and indeed, quotes from 2000 in this thread are damning) - but as for any evidence after this clear, complete and comprehensive statement from Hamas - there is nothing but snippets and inferences (again dealt with in replies to the quotes in this thread).

But hey, what is very telling is that the loons bring up slurs against Hamas as a defence against the support Loon-central is giving to the bigots at EDL. Tu quoque defence is never far away from a loon's reply!!

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Jul 20, 2010

shafique wrote:Compare this with the EDL - whose protestations that they aren't loons has been tested and found wanted by investigations.

Are you sure you're not referring to Hamas here?

shafique wrote:but as for any evidence after this clear, complete and comprehensive statement from Hamas

I'm sorry, have you found any 'comprehensive' statement from the EDL saying what you imagine them saying ?

Or are you again reverting to 'snippets'?

I thought I provided the quotes where the EDL makes it clear that they are not racist/"Islamophobic" and do not condone violent protests.

shafique wrote:there is nothing but snippets and inferences (again dealt with in replies to the quotes in this thread).

Ditto.

shafique wrote:But hey, what is very telling is that the loons bring up slurs against Hamas as a defence against the support Loon-central is giving to the bigots at EDL. Tu quoque defence is never far away from a loon's reply!!

What's telling is that you couldn't detect irony if it ran you over while you were attending an EDL demonstration.

shafique · Jul 20, 2010

Ah, the old loon ad hominem is never far behind the loony tu quoque.

So, we have mini-me Bob defending the EDL by pointing out that loon's persist in believing snippets that are roundly contradicted by Hamas' complete, comprehensive and clear statement relating to Judaism and Holocaust and which they can't find any real evidence to contradict this statement (just some older selective quotes and late statements which don't, in fact, contradict Hamas' statement quoted in full).

The EDL, on the other hand, protest they aren't the racist bigotted thugs that the Jewish leaders in Britain say they are, but mini-me Loon and Loon Guru still 'applaud' and defend. Sigh.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Jul 20, 2010

So, we have mini-me Bob defending the EDL by pointing out that loon's persist in believing snippets that are roundly contradicted by Hamas' complete, comprehensive and clear statement relating to Judaism and Holocaust and which they can't find any real evidence to contradict this statement (just some older selective quotes and late statements which don't, in fact, contradict Hamas' statement quoted in full).

Sorry....once again. Are you referring to Hamas or the EDL ???

shafique · Jul 20, 2010

What part of the statement confused you ?

I said you are defending your support of EDL by pointing out that you persist in believing snippets about Hamas as detailed in this thread. I'm referring to the fact you brought up Hamas views in the EDL thread - in a pretty lame attempt at a Tu Quoque defence.
dubai-politics-talk/edl-views-violence-and-racism-t42611.html#p342517

Try and keep up with your own postings dear young one

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Jul 20, 2010

No, that was just a parody of your mickey mouse argument.

What I said back then, is that you were pretty dense to not 'get' that.

Your arguments are so lame that when others (try) to adopt them themselves, you ridicule them as, well, being 'dumb'.

As I said, what you call 'snippets' about Hamas - define 'snippet' - is exactly what the evidence against the EDL is.

LoL.

One dumb member.

shafique · Jul 20, 2010

Oh, you were trying to be funny.

Thanks for clarifying - usually you are funny, but unintentionally so.

Anyway - you can go back to backing the EDL in the other thread.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Jan 08, 2011

It is worth bumping again, and noting that we still only have one clear, comprehensive and complete message from Hamas about their stance on the Holocaust. Snippets of speeches translated from Arabic (old and new) have to be compared to what Hamas actually says their stance on the Holocaust is.

Some Hamas members do hold the legitimate view that the Holocaust is used and abused to justify injustices committed against Palestinians, but this is not the same a Holocaust denial - not by a long shot.

The bits in red are categoric, the statement is fully referenced and was written in English by an official from Hamas (see OP).

shafique wrote:Snippets are snippets, the complete and comprehensive and clear quote comes from Hamas.

'nuff said

Edit, actually - it is worth showing the relevant CLEAR and COMPREHENSIVE statement again:

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Jan 08, 2011

shafique wrote:It is worth bumping again, and noting that we still only have one clear, comprehensive and complete message from Hamas about their stance on the Holocaust. Snippets of speeches translated from Arabic (old and new) have to be compared to what Hamas actually says their stance on the Holocaust is.

Some Hamas members do hold the legitimate view that the Holocaust is used and abused to justify injustices committed against Palestinians, but this is not the same a Holocaust denial - not by a long shot.

The bits in red are categoric, the statement is fully referenced and was written in English by an official from Hamas (see OP).

shafique wrote:Snippets are snippets, the complete and comprehensive and clear quote comes from Hamas.

'nuff said

Edit, actually - it is worth showing the relevant CLEAR and COMPREHENSIVE statement again:

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.

Cheers,
Shafique

1) Hamas leader says Nazi genocide was a lie, http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110106/wl ... 0106182240
2) Hamas is a terrorist organization, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_de ... anizations
3) Al shafique is a supporter of Hamas

shafique · Jan 08, 2011

Herve - you do know the difference between 'clear, complete, and comprehensive' and 'snippet' don't you?

If not, I can explain in French. :wink:

What is also interesting (but not surprising) - an elderly civilian is shot dead in bed, and there is no comment from herve. Quote what Hamas' actual views on the Holocaust is - and suddenly herve turns into an expert on Hamas based on a snippet in an article. I guess the fact the civilian murdered in his bed was Arab has something to do with this? :roll:

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Jan 08, 2011

Do you support Hamas shafique?

shafique · Jan 08, 2011

Nope.

Do you support Likud?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Jan 08, 2011

It is worth recalling that this thread was about correcting a piece of disinformation that was presented as fact. Quoting what Hamas themselves say about their beliefs is not what I would say amounts to support of Hamas - just support of truth, I'd argue:

shafique to Flying Dutchman - first page of this thread wrote:..

You're the one that raised Hamas' views about the Holocaust and presented as 'fact' that they deny the Holocaust. As with my supposed Holocaust denials, it appears facts don't feature too highly in your arguments.
..

What is notable, is that you haven't actually commented on what Hamas says above in relation to your pronouncement that they deny the Holocaust.

How often does your mud-throwing technique actually work?

herve · Jan 08, 2011

A senior Hamas leader, Mahmud Zahar, on Thursday accused Israel of carrying out "countless holocausts" against the Palestinians while saying the Nazi genocide was a "lie."
That is not a snippet, it is a statement

-- Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:51 am --

shafique wrote:Nope.

Do you support Likud?

Cheers,
Shafique

What is likud, i could not find it on the list of terrorist organizations, and did I say anything to support likud .
You are supportive to Hamas because you are trying to make people beleive that Hamas did not deny the nazi genocide, when it is all over the news with Mahmud Zahar's statement

shafique · Jan 08, 2011

It is a snippet.

Compare that with the full, complete, comprehensive statement in the OP. Only a few words of Zahar were quoted in the article.

If you are sure that Hamas denies the Holocaust - then show us the full quote and context of Zahar's speech and show that his words aren't being spun as usual (where his criticism of the Zionist cynical use of the Holocaust is being called a lie).

It should be straightforward - quote the guy in full and in context - with references. A complete transcript - or a recording would be best.

Until then, we have a complete statement from Hamas and a snippet. Just because you WANT to believe the snippet, doesn't make it true.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Jan 08, 2011

The few words that are quoted by Mahmud Zahar are that the nazi genocide is a lie, it is clear, direct and perfectly understandable. He does not need to write 254 pages and 35,000 words to say it, only a few words suffice. The rest of the article does not contradict this statement, but you are trying desperately to find something to make a 180 deg turn, in that sense you support hamas.
Do you agree that hamas is a terrorist organization?

shafique · Jan 08, 2011

Unfortunately, the bit you highlighted in red is not what was quoted by the article as the words used by Zahar (and not in that order).

It should be very simple for you - just quote the guy in full in the words he used. Not a difficult or unreasonable request. (If you are interested in the truth, that is).

You ask about Likud - they are a poltical party (like Hamas), they are in power (like Hamas) in coalition, and they have members who have called for the killing of Arabs and other terrorist acts. Irgun (a terrorist group) changed their name to Likud.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

I therefore asked whether you support Likud - you asked whether I support Hamas.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Jan 08, 2011

Hamas is a terrorist organization , likud is not and I have no opinion on likud
If you deny hamas is a terrorist organization , then it shows that you support hamas

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