Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk Philosophy and Religion Forums

benwj wrote:

melika969 wrote:Maytbe those whites who converted to Islam are not that proud!

You make a good point Mel.
Anyone who 'converts' (well the truth of the matter is that they were not practicing religion to begin with, so didn't actually convert as such) is somewhat lost and insecure beforehand. The choice of religion is irrelevant. Islam is just the flavour of the month. In the 70's it was cults. In the 80's it was 6 day bike riders, In the 90's it was happy clappers. The naughties has been the decade of the moozie.

benwj - I was making pretty much the same point earlier in the thread - that Islam is now considered as a viable alternative for those looking for a spiritual path, more so than in the past. This has actually been helped by the misinformation spread about Islam - and helps encourage curiosity when a cursory investigation exposes the gulf between the hysterical rants and the reality.

I do believe that the erstwhile Hari-Krishna/Buddhist/Vegan/Hippy/Wiccan converts that are now choosing Islam are still being attracted to core teachings and values that make sense to them (and aren't being duped by scheming male muslims intent on stealth Jihad - bwahaha)

That said, in my experience I see more people coming from religious backgrounds than those who were practicing no religion at all. The normal course of events is that these seekers first turn to the religion of their parents or the notional religion of their parents. One good friend of mine who is Irish - was a devout Catholic, was on course to be a priest - then went and looked at other religions and then finally converted to Islam. In my experience of meeting people interested in learning more about Islam, those who went on to convert were overwhelmingly those who were religious but had become disenchanted with the religions they were following (rather than those with 'no religion').

Applying Occam's razor - the 100,000 converts to Islam in the UK are doing so because of Islam's attractive teachings and philosophy - and therefore are those who've tested the claims of anti-Muslim bloggers and found them to be misinformation. The search for alternative explanations brings to mind the phrase 'sour grapes'

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli wrote:Mel, the religious texts may say a woman is equally entitled, but the reality is that if she is completely financially depended on the husband as was the case in those days she is less likely to ask for divorce than the man - so there is a disproportionately high number of men asking than women. Then there is the social pressure not to divorce. Women bring shame to their family if they do it, but men can simply move along an find another bride. For women there so much more stigma about their modesty and honour than men - typical double standard.

K,The religious text never said that men and women are equal in divorce! What has repeated number of times is addressing men in all actions of divorce. The verse DDS menetioned is just a phase in 3 times divorce which the meaning has been lost in translation from Arabic to English.

This is a very well known fact in Islamic laws that even if there is no pressure in society, and the woman is very powerful financially, the right of divorce belongs to men. It is like a one sided contract!

^With all due respect Mel - it is a well known fact that Muslim women have the right to divorce in Islam - and I know that women in Iran exercise this right, so you really have no excuse to pretend otherwise.

Divorce is certainly not a one-sided contract, neither in practice in Iran and neither in Islamic law.

Yes, there are instructions relating to men and women when it comes to divorce (relating to waiting periods - which are related to seeing whether the lady is pregnant or not, etc) - but either you have been mislead or are being deliberately obtuse if you argue that divorce is a one-sided contract.

Cheers,
Shafique

would you care to share what is the condition for women to have the divorce right?

It's a long list from memory - and I recall that one of the conditions that Iranian women have used is that the man does not perform in bed.

The other reasons are - after a quick search on the web:

A wife who unluckily could not find herself to be in a peaceful wedlock with her husband and is desirous of getting a divorce has a statutory right to get divorce as the law does not believe in hateful unions although “it does not admit impediments in the marriage of true minds”. However, in our society it becomes extremely difficult for a wife to ask for her pronounced, guaranteed and statutory rights. Besides being a male-oriented and male-dominated society she is psychologically debarred from having access to the statutes enumerating and ensuring the right of getting divorce under certain eventualities. Section 2 of the Dissolution of Muslim Marriages Act permits divorce on any one or more of the following grounds viz:


(i) That the whereabouts of the husband have not been known for a period of four years;
(ii) That the husband has neglected or has failed to provide for her maintenance for a period of two year;
(iii) That the husband has taken an additional wife in contravention of the provisions of the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance, 1961;
(iv) That the husband has been sentenced to imprisonment for a period of seven years or upwards;
(v) That the husband has failed to perform, without reasonable cause, his marital obligations for a period of three years;
(vi) That the husband was impotent at the time of the marriage and continues to be so;
(vii) That the husband has been insane for a period of two years or is suffering from leprosy or a virulent venereal disease;
(viii) That she having been given in marriage by her father or other guardian before she attained the age of fifteen years, repudiated the marriage before attaining the age of eighteen years; provided that the marriage has not been consummated;
(ix) That the husband treats her with cruelty, that is to say;
a. Habitually assaults her or makes her life miserable by cruelty of conduct even if such conduct does not amount to physical ill-treatment; or
b. Associates with women of evil repute or leads an infamous life; or
c. Attempts to force her to lead an immoral life; or
d. Disposes of her property or prevents her exercising her legal rights over it; or
e. Obstructs her in the observance of her religious profession or practice; or
f. If he has more wives than one, does not treat her equitably in accordance with the injunctions of the Quran.

http://www.kakakhellaw.com/ARTICLES-DETAILS.php?aid=4

(This is from Pakistan, but looks like an 'Islamic' compliant list to me)

Cheers,
Shafique

^^^So if the woman simply doesnt like her husband anymore, can not get divorced, right?

But men can! In any moment they realized thet don't want to be with their wife anymore, they can get divorced with no need to be related to any category!

^Women, in my experience, can blame men for pretty much any incident that goes wrong - so I'd serioiusly imagine that no woman who wants a divorce cannot find something on that list to initiate a divorce.

Reality vs hypotheticals Mel - women in Iran and elsewhere exercise their right to divorce. In practice, yes - a woman who just wants out of a marriage can indeed get a divorce.

I really can't see where your 'belief' that it is a 'one sided contract' comes from.

Cheers,
Shafique

No Shaf, becasue of the laws and conditions you mentioned yourself, in practice they can't, or they have to suffer a lot and fight and put a lot of time to get divorced.

I have seen many examples, Imagine the man is not insane, he is not in prison, he is not ill etc etc but the woman does not feel happy in the relationship. She wants to get out and maybe follow a different path in life. Based on Islamic rules, she can't! But this is not the same for men. anytime they wish they can get out!

That's double standard and a one sided contract.

Mel - from my perspective you are exagerating and taking extreme cases to make your point.

The bottom line is that Islam in theory and practice does give women the rights to divorce, and it is certainly not a a one-sided issue at all. You have to be very creative to come up with a scenario where a woman cannot get out of a marriage.

That said, here is a clear Hadith which contradicts your view that a woman can't divorce for just not being able to stand the husband/marriage:

This Hadith has the Prophet agreeing to a divorce initiated by a Woman who found no fault with her husband:

The wife of Thabit ibn Qais came to the Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, and said, O Messenger of Allah! I do not find fault in Thabit ibn Qais regarding his morals or faith, but I hate disbelief in Islam. The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be on him : "Wilt thou return to him his orchard?" She said, Yes. So the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, said (to Thabit) : "Accept the orchard and divorce her."3 (B. 68 : 12.)

It is also reported in Abu Dawud:

Narrated Habibah, daughter of Sahl al-Ansariyyah: Amrah, daughter of AbdurRahman ibn Sa'd ibn Zurarah, reported on the authority of Habibah, daughter of Sahl al-Ansariyyah: She (Habibah) was the wife of Thabit ibn Qays ibn Shimmas. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) came out one morning and found Habibah by his door. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Who is this? She replied: I am Habibah, daughter of Sahl. He asked: What is your case? She replied: I and Thabit ibn Qays, referring to her husband, cannot live together. When Thabit ibn Qays came, the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to him: This is Habibah, daughter of Sahl, and she has mentioned (about you) what Allah wished to mention. Habibah said: Apostle of Allah, all that he gave me is with me. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to Thabit ibn Qays: Take it from her. So he took it from her, and she lived among her people (relatives).

http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display ... umber=2218

In this case, the wife had no specific complaint against her husband, and there was neither esertion, nor ill-treatment. She said that she could not pull on with him, and her right to have a divorce was not refused. But she was required to return the orchard which the husband had given to her as dowry. This is technically called khul`, lit., undoing of a knot. The words I hate disbelief in Islam mean that she could not pull on with him as a faithful Muslim wife should; according to another version the words are la utiqu-hu, i.e., I cannot bear him.


Cheers,
Shafique

Now we are going to hadith?! I thought we would stick to Quran, like the case of stoning. We know that there are lots of differences in believing in Hadith for Shia and Sunni and other sects. Shaf, you are making too much effort to falsify a very well known fact.

My cases are not extreme, they are REALITIES! Which as I said earlier, people who convert to Islam are not aware of them. Because some other are deceiving them! And even if they are extreme, a religion which comes from God should be able to answer in extreme cases.

Let’s put it this way, there is a contract between two parties. One of the parties can cancel it anytime they want, the other one should meet some criteria to cancel the contract. Is this double standard or not?

Sorry Mel - the Quran is clear, women can ask for divorce. Current day reality is real - women ask for divorce.

History shows that the Prophet granted divorce for the very reason you say Islam doesn't grant divorce (just not liking the dude).

We have Quran agreeing with practice agreeing with historical example of the Prophet granting divorce to lady who just disliked her husband. QED.

I'm just comparing evidence with your testimony. If some sharia courts don't allow women to get a divorce for the reason given in the Hadith above - that isn't really Islam's fault is it?

Cheers,
Shafique

Of course woman can ask, but who would listen?!!

We are not going through Hadith here because of difference between Shia and Sunni, as you didn’t accept the Hadith for stoning.

As you mentioned in your earlier post, women need to belong to one of those categories to get divorced, that’s the Islamic law!

shafique wrote:(i) That the whereabouts of the husband have not been known for a period of four years;
(ii) That the husband has neglected or has failed to provide for her maintenance for a period of two year;
(iii) That the husband has taken an additional wife in contravention of the provisions of the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance, 1961;
(iv) That the husband has been sentenced to imprisonment for a period of seven years or upwards;
(v) That the husband has failed to perform, without reasonable cause, his marital obligations for a period of three years;
(vi) That the husband was impotent at the time of the marriage and continues to be so;
(vii) That the husband has been insane for a period of two years or is suffering from leprosy or a virulent venereal disease;
(viii) That she having been given in marriage by her father or other guardian before she attained the age of fifteen years, repudiated the marriage before attaining the age of eighteen years; provided that the marriage has not been consummated;
(ix) That the husband treats her with cruelty, that is to say;
a. Habitually assaults her or makes her life miserable by cruelty of conduct even if such conduct does not amount to physical ill-treatment; or
b. Associates with women of evil repute or leads an infamous life; or
c. Attempts to force her to lead an immoral life; or
d. Disposes of her property or prevents her exercising her legal rights over it; or
e. Obstructs her in the observance of her religious profession or practice; or
f. If he has more wives than one, does not treat her equitably in accordance with the injunctions of the Quran.

but men does not need a simple reason! You can try and go on and on! But it is double standards!

shafique wrote:I'm just comparing evidence with your testimony. If some sharia courts don't allow women to get a divorce for the reason given in the Hadith above - that isn't really Islam's fault is it?

Of course it is Sharia's fault! If it was really from God, it could bering a simle verse in his holy book! or at least for once address women when talking about divorce!

In Quran there are verses addressing prophets wives how they should not be jealous of each other!!! but there is no one single verse to give divorce rights to women!

You're repeating yourself, so allow me to state again the simple facts as I see it:

1. Islam allows women right of divorce
2. There is a long list of reasons given
3. the Prophet, pbuh, allowed the wife of Thabit bin Qais (Qays) to divorce her husband for explicitly no fault (reported in multiple books of Hadith)
4. Today in Iran and elsewhere, Muslim women get divorced.

I really can't see how this can be characterised as a one-sided contract.

But hey - you are free to believe your version, I'm just making the point that if what you say does happen -this is despite Islam's teachings rather than because of it.

PS: As for stoning Hadith - I didn't say I reject the Hadith as false, I said:

shafique wrote:I've yet to see a Hadith that says that stoning was carried out on Muslims after the verses relating to the Islamic punishments were revealed. There were indeed instances of Jews being subject to this punishment - but that was because they were being tried according to their Biblical laws, and there were instances of Muslims being stoned before these Quranic verses were revealed.

cheers,
Shafique

Yes I know you like to go on and on, and you have to have the final word but I won’t let you this time!

1-There is no single verse in Quran giving the right of divorce to women.
2-Women can get divorced if they belong to some categories, men can get divorced anytime they want. DOUBLE STANDARD! ONE SIDED CONTRACT!
3-Women get divorced in Iran using other leverages, for example I have a friend, she got divorced recently. She is 37, very well educated and has a daughter with a perfect job. Her ex husband would not agree to divorce her and she cannot get divorced. She knows about her husband cheating on her, but this is not in your categories. So she threatened him that she would tell his family and as his family were very conservative and supporting him financially, he accepted the divorce and even gave the custody of the daughter to her. Women do these kind of things to get divorced. They have no legal and Sharia right!
4-If you bring a story from prophet’s time, which its root is doubted between different sects even in Islam it doesn’t count as an evidence!

Mel: Let's agree to disagree on this point - I've nothing to add to my last post.


Cheers,
Shafique

^^^yeaa but still you have to have the last word!

Of course it is Sharia's fault! If it was really from God, it could bering a simle verse in his holy book! or at least for once address women when talking about divorce!

How can a woman get "Khula" (divorcement)?

If a woman wants to divorce, it is necessary that her husband give her the right to divorce. If a married woman wants to divorce and her husband does not divorce her, the families can choose an arbitration committee and the divorce can be realized.

A woman is religiously the wife of the man whom she performed a marriage; therefore she cannot marry anybody else unless her husband divorces her.

The things that can be done in such a situation is to make the man divorce the woman or to divorce them through an arbitration committee.

In a situation like that, it is not right for the man not to insist on not divorcing the woman only in order to harm her. (al-Baqara, 2/231).

Therefore, in a situation like that, a respectable, wise, virtuous scholar should go and talk to the man as a mediator and tell him that he should end a marriage that does not benefit him at all, that the religious marriage cannot be used to satisfy oneself by harming the woman and that it is contrary to Islam; he should persuade the man to divorce the woman.

If the man insists on not divorcing, the families of the woman and man choose an arbiter each because they cannot apply to the court since there is not an official marriage. If one of the families does not agree to choose an arbiter, the other family can choose a just and impartial arbiter for them.

The arbiters try to arbitrate first. If there is a real necessity, they can decide to divorce the man and the woman even if the spouses do not consent.

After a divorce like that takes place and the waiting period for the woman ends, the woman can marry again.

In order to prevent such incidents from happening, it is necessary to perform official marriage contracts and have a legal assurance. The young people or their families who say that they are religious people may deny the contracts they have made among themselves when there is no official recording and one of the parties, usually the woman, faces a difficult situation.

Thus, let alone realizing the high aim that our religion assumes out of the marriage, people try to oppress one another using the religion.

The Quran recommends that marriage contracts be in writing, even though oral contracts are valid..

"Contracts at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) could be done orally. To be in writing is what the Qur'an recommends: "O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing. Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (for evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of Allah, more suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear Allah; for it is Allah that teaches you. And Allah is well acquainted with all things. If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, let the trustee (faithfully) discharge his trust, and let him fear his Lord conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it, his heart is tainted with sin. And Allah knoweth all that ye do." (Al-Baqarah: 282:83)

A contract in writing is not necessary then, but guaranteeing the rights of people is necessary. Since marriage is a civil contract, it is similar to any deal or transaction.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... TheScholar

.

-- Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:07 pm --

2-Women can get divorced if they belong to some categories, men can get divorced anytime they want. DOUBLE STANDARD! ONE SIDED CONTRACT!

What a silly and ignorant claim Melika!..
You enjoy reducing a marriage contract down to some sort of menial toy to play with...

All becouse of your hatred of religion! and you cannot get over this can you?...

[4:35] If a couple fears separation, you shall appoint an arbitrator from his family and an arbitrator from her family; if they decide to reconcile, GOD will help them get together. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.

http://www.submission.org/women/divorce.html

But berrin, you just said that women have to get the approval of their husband to divorce... Isn't that exactly what Mel is talking about? Men can just divorce while women have to jump through many hoops to do so.

Berrin, can you reconcile this paragraph:

If a woman wants to divorce, it is necessary that her husband give her the right to divorce. If a married woman wants to divorce and her husband does not divorce her, the families can choose an arbitration committee and the divorce can be realized.

And the case of the wife of Thabit bin Qais - where the lady asked and got a divorce:

The wife of Thabit ibn Qais came to the Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, and said, O Messenger of Allah! I do not find fault in Thabit ibn Qais regarding his morals or faith, but I hate disbelief in Islam. The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be on him : "Wilt thou return to him his orchard?" She said, Yes. So the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, said (to Thabit) : "Accept the orchard and divorce her."

(BTW in your first quote- I would have thought it would be difficult for a non-Married woman to want a divorce - annd doesn't the second sentence contradict the first - i.e. that the lady can get a divorce without permission from her husband after all..?)

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli wrote:But berrin, you just said that women have to get the approval of their husband to divorce... Isn't that exactly what Mel is talking about? Men can just divorce while women have to jump through many hoops to do so.

If you are a beliving muslim than it means you are in contract with God(islam)

If you make a marriage according to islam you have to understand the importance of a family life (beforehand) which is protected where the man is given the role to form and lead the family, to sustain its existance and health by providing and contributing to its hapiness so that we have safe and peaceful society at large...

It’s like a boss running a company...Before you sack an employee you inform the boss or boss grants you the permission to sack based on sound judgement...

A marriage is a contract between two individuals, neither of them can be forced into it...

Therefore a marriage must be a concious, well thought, intentions well expressed before walking into it...Both Partners must know their duties (according to quran) before a declaration of marriage is made..

Now you declared a marriage, means you are in long term contract where both individual are liable towards each other..

If husband breaks his duties, it is wife’ right to ask for a divorce based on sound and righteous judgement..
If wife breaks her duties , it is the right of husband to ask for a divorce, again based on righteous judgement..
If they both agree they will both divorce by declaration to each other and to their witnesses and will settle the rest of issues peacefully..

However, If one partner decides that the other is not right and fears that the marriage is gonna end on false accusations (especailly if there are kids envolved) than either of them have the right to reject divorce.. Then you have mediators to judge and counsel basically..

That’s why divorce in islam has to start with arbitration and at a time of anger where husband instantly says “ I divorced you” three times is simply not valid, especailly if it is said and aimed to harm the feelings of the wife... Absolute divorce, where husband and wife declare “I divorce you” only happens after arbitration and dissolution at court..

The wife can not reject the divorce... The husband can...

And did you get it K? Men are the boss!

At least Berrin tells the truth somehow, The divorce is the right of a man.

If a woman wants to divorce, it is necessary that her husband give her the right to divorce.

Absolutely!

And did you get it K? Men are the boss!

If you want to be the boss to form and lead a family then that will be it..so as long as you can find a believing man ready to be leashed...

-- Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:47 pm --

shafique wrote:Berrin, can you reconcile this paragraph:

If a woman wants to divorce, it is necessary that her husband give her the right to divorce. If a married woman wants to divorce and her husband does not divorce her, the families can choose an arbitration committee and the divorce can be realized.

And the case of the wife of Thabit bin Qais - where the lady asked and got a divorce:

The wife of Thabit ibn Qais came to the Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, and said, O Messenger of Allah! I do not find fault in Thabit ibn Qais regarding his morals or faith, but I hate disbelief in Islam. The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be on him : "Wilt thou return to him his orchard?" She said, Yes. So the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, said (to Thabit) : "Accept the orchard and divorce her."

Shafique I can only reconcile the case of the wife of Thabit bin Qais with the surah from quran, couse as we read we understand that while in a marriage she chose to follow islam her husband prefered to stay in disbelief..

Since believing ladies are not granted a marriage to a disbelieving man...The solution to dissolve marriage was by her, giving back what she could afford...

According to Surrat al-Baqarah - Verse: 229 (( Divorce may be (pronounced) twice, then keep (them) in good fellowship or let (them) go with kindness; and it is not lawful for you to take any part of what you have given them, unless both fear that they cannot keep within the limits of Allah; then if you fear that they cannot keep within the limits of Allah, there is no blame on them for what she gives up to become free thereby. These are the limits of Allah, so do not exceed them and whoever exceeds the limits of Allah these it is that are the unjust ))

Thanks Berrin. However, the Hadith and commentaries are pretty clear that Thabit was a Muslim (and a practicing one at that). If you look up at the Abu Dawud version you will see that that more clearly.

Cheers,
Shafique

I wonder what was the disbelief she was hating then?...

I found this article in 'the Saudi gazette' and it mentions this hadith - but also the conclusion:

A study of these traditions brings to light certain facts about Khula. One, if a woman dislikes her husband, and as a result fears that the couple might not be able to keep within the bounds set by Allah, opting for Khula is better.

Two, the woman will have to return the Mahr in order to secure divorce. And if the husband does not want to divorce her even on the condition of taking the Mahr back, he will be compelled by the court to accept the money and divorce her. Three, these traditions also indicate that the amount of Mahr should be considered as the maximum for granting Khula.

http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cf ... 8081114147


The difference in divorce rights between man and women are:

The right to divorce rests with the husband. If the wife wants to seek divorce, the way is open for her on the condition of returning her Mahr. If the husband is not ready to divorce her even on the condition of getting the Mahr back, the woman can move the court and the court in turn would secure divorce from her husband in lieu of the Mahr.

In a commentary about the Hadith, I found this explanation:

In this case, the wife had no specific complaint against her husband, and there was neither desertion, nor ill-treatment. She said that she could not pull on with him, and her right to have a divorce was not refused. But she was required to return the orchard which the husband had given to her as dowry. This is technically called khul`, lit., undoing of a knot. The words I hate disbelief in Islam mean that she could not pull on with him as a faithful Muslim wife should; according to another version the words are la utiqu-hu, i.e., I cannot bear him.

Cheers,
Shafique

(PS - This thread seems to have morphed into one discussing Divorce - do you guys think we should split it out.. there seems to be a natural break a few pages ago?)

Looks as though he was over-powering her which is haram and not allowed if he considers himself a believer..

2219

Narrated Habibah, daughter of Sahl al-Ansariyyah: Amrah, daughter of AbdurRahman ibn Sa'd ibn Zurarah, reported on the authority of Habibah, daughter of Sahl al-Ansariyyah: She (Habibah) was the wife of Thabit ibn Qays ibn Shimmas. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) came out one morning and found Habibah by his door. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Who is this? She replied: I am Habibah, daughter of Sahl. He asked: What is your case? She replied: I and Thabit ibn Qays, referring to her husband, cannot live together. When Thabit ibn Qays came, the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to him: This is Habibah, daughter of Sahl, and she has mentioned (about you) what Allah wished to mention. Habibah said: Apostle of Allah, all that he gave me is with me. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to Thabit ibn Qays: Take it from her. So he took it from her, and she lived among her people (relatives).


2220

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: Habibah daughter of Sahl was the wife of Thabit ibn Qays Shimmas He beat her and broke some of her part. So she came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) after morning, and complained to him against her husband. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) called on Thabit ibn Qays and said (to him): Take a part of her property and separate yourself from her. He asked: Is that right, Apostle of Allah? He said: Yes. He said: I have given her two gardens of mine as a dower, and they are already in her possession. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Take them and separate yourself from her.

http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display ... umber=2208

Yes, I heard the boss word and shuddered. I think the man and woman are both bosses and should take turns being boss depending on their knowledge, interest, talent, or time for the issue. Saying the man is boss by default is archaic and unjust.