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Since the first Gulf War, it has always annoyed me that the American News channels pronounce "Qatar" as "Cutter". They make no effort at all...as a teenager back then, even I knew it was Qatar, or with my accent I would say "Ka-Tar". Now that I live here, I still say "Ka-Tar" because I cannot pronounce the "T" or the "R" the way people from the Gulf do. I do, however make an effort.

Just watching the news, and as Janet Napolitano (US Security Secretary) is visiting Doha, it is in the news.

They use a fake Mexican accent when reporting on the places where the drug war is raging in Mexico, why not bother with a country here?

/rant

P.S. I say "Ba-Rain" because I sound like a boob when I try to say the "hr" part of "Bahrain"...it comes out as "Baha-Rain" (with some loogies mixed in). Just sayin'.

I think names and pronounciations are not the wests forte or atleast the English speaking part. Phonectically, English is a very limited language.

I have a friend from Oregon USA. He's spent a life time studying Arabic and Quranic Arabic from places like Azhar University in Cairo and some other top notch Uni in Syria. He is an Islamic scholar now here in Abu Dhabi but the guy still cannot pronouce properly still has a American north western twang in his spoken Arabic. So don't be too hard on your self about "Cutter" !

The irony is every non native English speaker tries to speak English as close to as a native speaker would as and there a many out there who do perfectly without even the slightest accent.

But yet it is almost a very rare event to see a native English speaker, speak any other language perfectly accent wise save for the regular spanish or french which most of the time is off aswell,

Here is one of those rare examples of an American speaking perfect Arabic



P.S : My friends kids who all grew up in the middle east have no American accent when speaking Arabic, was just talking to him today about this and he says his kids are better at Arabic than there govt desiginated Egyptian and Lebanese teachers and usually pick out their mistakes ! LOL

Oh found another video by the same guy and as to why English speakers ( well actually a lot of people and not just english speakers ) can't get Arabic right

http://www.youtube.com/user/saxquiz#p/u/30/BCtkmnFLVxI

Qatar is in the news a lot in the UK because of their success in the World Cup bid. The BBC news presenters always amuse me when they refer to Ka-Tar being a stones throw away from Jew-bye. I can't say I have noticed the BBC refering to Ka-Ta as Cutter.

The English language is not easy to master and it is quite obvious to British English speakers when one is not (a native speaker that is). A thing that shouts non European to me is when someone writes about 'your' when then mean 'you're'. Of course the Brits are rubbish at foreign languages as we think everyone should speak English. I was taught French, German and Latin at school and as a result can order a beer in German and that is only because I lived in Germany for 16 years.

There is standard English and British English and the two are quite different, standard English being used by the likes of Americans and Canadians. I must say I do like the Australian version of English, there is something about that accent...

I really don't know how anybody masters the English language. How do you teach someone that Merthyr Tydfil is pronounced Merther Titfil or Featherstonhaugh is Fanshaw or St John is Sin-jen? A nightmare! And then you have dialects within British English. I have yet to master Cumbrian, where ladgeful means embarrassing.

dubaidog wrote:Since the first Gulf War, it has always annoyed me that the American News channels pronounce "Qatar" as "Cutter". They make no effort at all...as a teenager back then, even I knew it was Qatar, or with my accent I would say "Ka-Tar". Now that I live here, I still say "Ka-Tar" because I cannot pronounce the "T" or the "R" the way people from the Gulf do. I do, however make an effort.

Just watching the news, and as Janet Napolitano (US Security Secretary) is visiting Doha, it is in the news.

They use a fake Mexican accent when reporting on the places where the drug war is raging in Mexico, why not bother with a country here?

/rant

P.S. I say "Ba-Rain" because I sound like a boob when I try to say the "hr" part of "Bahrain"...it comes out as "Baha-Rain" (with some loogies mixed in). Just sayin'.

You mean Mejico?

desertdudeshj wrote:Phonectically, English is a very limited language.

Really DDS? How many phonemes in English (and all its dialects) compared to Arabic (and all its dialects)?

Also, wouldn't someone's ability to be able to speak another language with accurate pronunciation have more to do with the number of similar phonemes in their native language(s) as well as their own ability to be able to distinguish phonemes aurally and orally?

Anyhow, people should at least try to pronounce things similarly to how native speakers do - it doesn't hurt to expand one's phonemic repertoire!

^^^

kanelli wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Phonectically, English is a very limited language.

Really DDS? How many phonemes in English (and all its dialects) compared to Arabic (and all its dialects)?

Also, wouldn't someone's ability to be able to speak another language with accurate pronunciation have more to do with the number of similar phonemes in their native language(s) as well as their own ability to be able to distinguish phonemes aurally and orally?

Anyhow, people should at least try to pronounce things similarly to how native speakers do - it doesn't hurt to expand one's phonemic repertoire!

phonenemenal

This is strange thread , there a multitude of factors that go into how one pronounces words in a language, if you werent exposed to how to pronounce a word in its correct way, then obviously they will be mistakes,

I forgot to mention that , as a person grows up using a certain language , there are certain muscles in the tongue, oral cavity and in the vocal chords that develop in a specific way due to the way in which those groups of muscles are exercised ( when speaking a language in a specific way), these things are determined by the amount of effort needed to pronounce a syllable or consonant , which also depends on the amount of air being taken and amount of air being expelled etc.

Hence if you grew up speaking one kind of language , it will take a long time for you pronounce a word in a way you are not familiar with, An example is how arabic people refer to the letter "p" as "b" , or how the chinese language does not have the letter "r" and constantly replace all "r's" with the letter "l"

zubber wrote:This is strange thread , there a multitude of factors that go into how one pronounces words in a language, if you werent exposed to how to pronounce a word in its correct way, then obviously they will be mistakes,

it brobably has to do with there being so many different beeple and languages in the world ...

Ambassador wrote:phonenemenal

Awesome

kanelli wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Phonectically, English is a very limited language.

Really DDS? How many phonemes in English (and all its dialects) compared to Arabic (and all its dialects)?

Also, wouldn't someone's ability to be able to speak another language with accurate pronunciation have more to do with the number of similar phonemes in their native language(s) as well as their own ability to be able to distinguish phonemes aurally and orally?

Anyhow, people should at least try to pronounce things similarly to how native speakers do - it doesn't hurt to expand one's phonemic repertoire!

LOL, stop being overtly sensitive K. Although my post does sound like I'm saying that Arabic is a more flexible language than English, its not. Basically saying that very few phonectic commonalities between the two and that a monolingual English speaker will always have a tough time with Arabic. But a lot of Arabs do speak very good English than vice versa.

I'm not being sensitive, just discussing what you meant. I never interpreted that you were saying that Arabic was more flexible. Some phonemes in Arabic are very tricky for English speakers because there isn't anything like it in English - that's true.

It seems that the english language originated sometime around 450 AD, but arabic originated sometime around 800 BC, This would indicate that the robustness of the arabic language would be greater than english.

English - Origin - 450 AD = 1561 Years from today
Arabic - Origin - 800 BC = 2810 years from today

^ Calculated using www.wolframalpha.com

Arabic was in existence 1,249 years before English

Really? What factors make a "robust" language - age?

^^ Well if a language is older , then its influence on other languages would be greater , So the sum total of the total number of words in existence from the roots in all the other languages would be greater than a younger language ,

Taking into account the total number of literature in existence , obviously the root language would have been used more, and robustness, flexibility and depth of expression can only be assessed based on its actual usage.

So older the language means more of it has been used in historical time line, That would imply that skillfull usage of the older language is greater than the younger language, And this is the only yard stick that can be used for measurement,

Hence the Arabic language would be far more robust than English.

Arabic and English are both foreign language to me, but I think Arabic pronunciations are much more complicated. Although the alphabet for Arabic and Persian (Farsi) Are almost the same, pronunciations are much diversified in Arabic.

desertdudeshj wrote: But a lot of Arabs do speak very good English than vice versa.

You talk gooder English than I does. lol

My initial point was the fact that no USA news services, none, nada, zip make ANY effort to say "Ka-Tarrr" properly...it is ALWAYS "Cutter". Like they pronounce Pakistan "Pack-e-stan", but with a bit of effort, they could say "Pock-e-ston" (kinda how I hear it phonetically here). Not that big of a deal, you know what they are referring to, but when you here them say "Cutter"...an educated person would wonder where this place was. Anyhoo..."Cutter" is not even in the ballpark and I think they should get it together.

On a WTH note...I found this googling "Qatar American pronounciation"....weird to say the least.

Yes I talker goodest Englishes than you does the Arabics but I get your point. Cutter is still better than A-raab, Akc-med, Eye-ran or Eye-rack something you still hear in the American media !

Or the tons of people living in the west who have to simply their names so people can get it. Like : My name is Balakrishnasubramaniumkirshnamurtyrajshiriguptapatel but you can call me Tony !

Not Eye-ran, most of the time they say Eye-run!!!

And well I m curious how many of you native english speakers can speak any other language than English?!

melika969 wrote::lol: Not Eye-ran, most of the time they say Eye-run!!!

And well I m curious how many of you native english speakers can speak any other language than English?!

Mel I'm ashamed to say I can't speak anything else but English, even though my teachers tried hard enough. I got A's in GCE French and German and couldn't get by in either now. The Brits are basically idle.

Well the world is evolving and monolinguist English speakers are now finding hard to compete internationally specialy with new markets like China, India and Africa opening up with just one language and many are starting to realise that.

Recently was reading about a UK company went bust and when they were clearing out they found a document in German which no one understood and was filed under misc turned out to be big order which could have saved the company from going bankrupt.

Since DD initiated this thread I will also post a relevant example of a person I know in California in the IT field who stopped doing bussiness with a certain firm in Quebec because its insists that all communication and correspondence be in French, so also insisting on one or one's own language in todays world can also be detrimental.

zubber wrote:^^ Well if a language is older , then its influence on other languages would be greater , So the sum total of the total number of words in existence from the roots in all the other languages would be greater than a younger language ,

Taking into account the total number of literature in existence , obviously the root language would have been used more, and robustness, flexibility and depth of expression can only be assessed based on its actual usage.

So older the language means more of it has been used in historical time line, That would imply that skillfull usage of the older language is greater than the younger language, And this is the only yard stick that can be used for measurement,

Hence the Arabic language would be far more robust than English.

Where did you read this?

melika969 wrote::lol: Not Eye-ran, most of the time they say Eye-run!!!

And well I m curious how many of you native english speakers can speak any other language than English?!

I can get by in written and spoken German, French and spoken Arabic, with levels of proficiency in that order, was fluent in college in Egenese and Argy Pargy two artificial languages used to develop speech and pronunciation of World English.

In reality, what doesn’t help the native English speaker learn any foreign language is exposure in everyday life to that foreign language, in the UK all media is in English, TV, Radio, newspapers, advertising, whereas international exposure to English as a foreign language is far more prominent, whatever your nationality. So unless the native English speaker travels abroad for that exposure, his/her everyday choices are limited.

That’s my excuse anyway, and I’m sticking to it!!

One of the books on my 'must buy' list:
http://www.amazon.com/Empires-Word-Lang ... 0066210860

Looks interesting and covers the subject of this thread.

The subject matter and his insights look interesting, but the reviews also talk about it being quite dense and technical book. But this may be right up Kanelli's street!

As for the differences between Arabic and English and pronunciations - each has its merits and features. Arabic indeed has sounds that aren't in English, and English has it's peculiar spellings and pronunciations. English has evolved from a number of languages, and over the years the pronunciations of words have changed (and that's before we get into dialects and accents). Many of the peculiar spellings are what is left-over from the vowel shift that occured centuries ago - the pronunciation changed, but the spellings didn't.

Even in the 20th century, pronunciation of words have changed since the early days of broadcasting. The clipped accents certainly have changed, but so have how we pronounce specific words (and many words now have two or more acceptable pronunciations).

As for being mono-lingual - I put it squarely down to laziness and the education system. One can get by with English alone and only read/watch media, etertainment etc in English. The education system by and large encourage this - but the better schools and more highly educated are better at languages because of better education - that applies to the UK and the US, as well as India and China (i.e. it is a universal phenomenon). But there is also a merchant class who are polyglots - a trip down to Deira and you'll find store keepers conversing in Russian, Urdu, Arabic, English etc - and whose mother tongue is either Bangla or Malayalam.


Now, when it comes to philology and how languages developed - Arabic is unique in the world as it is the only language where a speaker from 1500 years ago would be perfectly understood by more people today than when he was alive. It is the only language from that period (and many have come and gone since) that is still living today. It has other unique features - such as the fact that the more rural a community, the more 'pure' the language is - in that it has more root words. It is the Bedouin who speak the purest form of Arabic - the classical or 'Fursaa' - which has the greatest number of root words and least number of synonyms and homonyms.

Arabic also has the curious characteristic of having been studied as a science by non-Native Arabs to extract the rules of Grammar. The Bedu speak Fursa according to rules, but they never had schools to learn the rules.. and hence they weren't written down. The rules were only written down by Persian scholars who studied the language and worked out what the rules were. I.e. the rules describe the language and how it was being used.

(My pronunciation of Arabic is way way worse that the American dude on youtube - kudos to him!)

Cheers,
Shafique

Arabic and Mandarin, two missed opportunities for me - but I'm trying to become more competent in my husband's language so the kids don't start to make fun of me

As far as other languages, I don't know jack. I used to speak Jive back in the 70s and 80s, then some rudimentary Ebonics in the late 80s, but it escapes me now. It is true what Dillion said, all the French I took is school was lost on me until I found myself working in France...amazing how it comes back to you. The thing is, they detected it right away and answered in English so I never got any further ahead!

One thing I have noticed through all my dealings with government ministries and the court system, is how valuable body language is. I know we all know this, but just today I was in the execution section and was told to go to see the big wig, he then (in perfect English) asked me to accompany him to another area. As I followed him in the door, two guys started shouting at me in Arabic, and the big wig immediately responded to them and the other guy in the room. There was then a quiet discussion, but I got everything, even though no one spoke to me in English. It went like this:

2 guys: "Hey, you can't be in here, this is a secure area...leave immediately"
big wig: "I asked him to come, where is his execution file #XXXX"
2 guys: " He is not allowed to be here"
big wig: "Listen, tubby, I'm the boss here and am getting to the bottom of this...3rd guy, would you like to add anything"?
3rd guy:" No, but he should not be here"
big wig: "Mr. DD has asked for our help, can we at least do this? 3rd guy, look for his case file on your desk and get it done, we will wait"
DD:"Should I leave?"
Tubby: "No, sit, we will help you"

After I left with big wig, he explained that it was a secure area, and they were being protective but have to understand that senior people deserve respect and action and they should not be embarrassed in front of guests. (me?) Anyway, as this discussion was going on, it was like I was doing an English play-by-play in my head, right down to the part where he asked the 3rd guy if he had anything to add. I think maybe subconsciously you pick up the "understanding" of the language and the substance of a 3rd party conversation, especially a language like Arabic, where the discussions can become quite animated. It happens all the time when my lawyer is speaking about me/the case in front of me

dubaidog wrote:
2 guys: "Hey, you can't be in here, this is a secure area...leave immediately"
big wig: "I asked him to come, where is his execution file #XXXX"
2 guys: " He is not allowed to be here"
big wig: "Listen, tubby, I'm the boss here and am getting to the bottom of this...3rd guy, would you like to add anything"?
3rd guy:" No, but he should not be here"
big wig: "Mr. DD has asked for our help, can we at least do this? 3rd guy, look for his case file on your desk and get it done, we will wait"
DD:"Should I leave?"
Tubby: "No, sit, we will help you"

Or maybe it went something like this

2 guys: "Oh Jeez, not another one"
big wig: "Yeah yeah, I know bugger won't leave me alone"
2 guys: "Alrigh then, whateva"
big wig: "Ok then can we just get it over with, I can't stand to see his mug another minute"?
3rd guy:" Yeah I know what you mean"
big wig: "I hope you still got his crap lying around somewhere here and didn't wrap your samosas in it and take it home like last time !"
DD:"Should I leave?"
Tubby: "No, sit, we will help you"

desertdudeshj wrote:Or maybe it went something like this

2 guys: "Oh Jeez, not another one"
big wig: "Yeah yeah, I know bugger won't leave me alone"
2 guys: "Alrigh then, whateva"
big wig: "Ok then can we just get it over with, I can't stand to see his mug another minute"?
3rd guy:" Yeah I know what you mean"
big wig: "I hope you still got his crap lying around somewhere here and didn't wrap your samosas in it and take it home like last time !"
DD:"Should I leave?"
Tubby: "No, sit, we will help you"

You could be very right!

An American friend, who lives in Doha, calls it, "Gutter" - with a Texan accent!!!