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A joke:


Perhabs it is a common view in the west on the average arab man/woman?
true?
not true?

I think it is true, and it is bad for both parts.

well this cartoon is not a joke at all. It is stereotyping and ridiculing the whole Muslim world. Lemme put it this way- if u have a bro who is a player and naughty messing around the neigbourhood like breakin ur neighbour's window, throwing garbage at ur neighbour's frontdoor etc, ur neighbours come to u to complain abt ur bro and u disagree with his actions and try to lecture ur bro but he remains supid as ever. Now ur neighbours in retaliation gets a pic of ur mom and with adobe photoshop post a naked pic of ur mom. Now how would u feel? Enraged eh?

samething is the case here
There are terrorists messing around the world not only in west in middle east -in iraq, saudia etc. In iraq bombings have bcome so common that ppl still sip their coffee in cafe after loud explosion. most of the muslim population disagree with the terrorist bombings. But when Danes insult something they admire and revere ofcourse they are going to be enraged. Yes if u compare with Jesus and Moses few ppl would give damn in Jewish and Christain world cos they hold less importance in their lives. Cross has become a symbol of fashion. "Jesus" had bcome more of exclamation remark.

I hope this explained.

sniper420 wrote:well this cartoon is not a joke at all. It is stereotyping and ridiculing the whole Muslim world. Lemme put it this way- if u have a bro who is a player and naughty messing around the neigbourhood like breakin ur neighbour's window, throwing garbage at ur neighbour's frontdoor etc, ur neighbours come to u to complain abt ur bro and u disagree with his actions and try to lecture ur bro but he remains supid as ever. Now ur neighbours in retaliation gets a pic of ur mom and with adobe photoshop post a naked pic of ur mom. Now how would u feel? Enraged eh?

samething is the case here
There are terrorists messing around the world not only in west in middle east -in iraq, saudia etc. In iraq bombings have bcome so common that ppl still sip their coffee in cafe after loud explosion. most of the muslim population disagree with the terrorist bombings. But when Danes insult something they admire and revere ofcourse they are going to be enraged. Yes if u compare with Jesus and Moses few ppl would give damn in Jewish and Christain world cos they hold less importance in their lives. Cross has become a symbol of fashion. "Jesus" had bcome more of exclamation remark.

I hope this explained.

yes 100% i agree with you snipper

hey ,, can any body tell me how to upload an image here ,, i didnt before

damn ,, i can not upload it

I can see both perspectives. What the cartoon seems to emphasise though is that many moderate Muslims would rather take action over cartoons, but don't show much outrage or action when it comes to the atrocities committed by radical Muslims in the name of their faith. Isn't suicide bombing in the name of Islam just as much of an assault on Islam as those cartoons - or more of an insult in my opinion!

kanelli wrote:I can see both perspectives. What the cartoon seems to emphasise though is that many moderate Muslims would rather take action over cartoons, but don't show much outrage or action when it comes to the atrocities committed by radical Muslims in the name of their faith. Isn't suicide bombing in the name of Islam just as much of an assault on Islam as those cartoons - or more of an insult in my opinion!

well,, it depends on the case itself ,,, cuicide bombing isnt totally wrong , and isnt totally right ,,, for example ,, i admire cuicide bombers in palastine ,, when i condemn it and consider it as an assault on islam in for example 9/11 ,,, so no generalizing at all .

Killing another innocent is always wrong. Suicide bombers are the most cowardly people possible, they don't discriminate who they kill and are prepared to kill fellow muslims in a heartbeat - very sad.

So are you going to condem the group which just murdered a Christian peacekeeper in Iraq after holding him hostage for months, then tortuing him before shooting him in the head and dumping his body by the side of the road? His only crime was to be in the country, siding with the Iraqi people and helping them to find peace in their country! Did he deserve to die? And what about the other 3 hostages that were held along with him? Do they deserve the same fate? When all they want to do is help the Iraqi people, or are they being punished just because they are Western Christians?

What about the other 54 foreigners who've so far been kidnapped and killed in Iraq? What about the thousands of Iraqi's kidnapped and murdered by there own people in the name of 'their religion'?

Sorry but the people committing these atrocities are the ones you should be mad at, bringing the name of Islam and Muslims into desrepute and causing headlines such as the above.

A recent survey in the US now shows that 43% associate Islam with violence, terrorism, suicide bombings and murder - I wonder why?

castellano wrote:i admire cuicide bombers in palastine ,, when i condemn it and consider it as an assault on islam in for example 9/11 ,,, so no generalizing at all .

What is the difference? Innocent people are killed in both cases. Both kinds of attacks are done for political purposes. Do you feel that Jewish lives are worth less for some reason? Israel and Palestine can and should exist side by side - yet Israelis and Palestinians continue to fight and kill each other. That is not admirable at all. As far as I have seen, the Torah and Quran do not instruct Jews and Muslims to engage in murder.

Most religious texts talk about how people should respect the environment and animals that the god(s) put here on earth - yet every day people abuse nature and animals. I care very much for environmental issues yet I don't admire environmental terrorists who have killed people to protect animals and nature. I'm smart enough to realise that violence only turns people away from the cause. Peaceful protests and political actions are the only ways to reach the goals.

No, I didn't think so!

kanelli wrote:

castellano wrote:i admire cuicide bombers in palastine ,, when i condemn it and consider it as an assault on islam in for example 9/11 ,,, so no generalizing at all .

What is the difference? Innocent people are killed in both cases. Both kinds of attacks are done for political purposes. Do you feel that Jewish lives are worth less for some reason? Israel and Palestine can and should exist side by side - yet Israelis and Palestinians continue to fight and kill each other. That is not admirable at all. As far as I have seen, the Torah and Quran do not instruct Jews and Muslims to engage in murder.

Most religious texts talk about how people should respect the environment and animals that the god(s) put here on earth - yet every day people abuse nature and animals. I care very much for environmental issues yet I don't admire environmental terrorists who have killed people to protect animals and nature. I'm smart enough to realise that violence only turns people away from the cause. Peaceful protests and political actions are the only ways to reach the goals.

well have u ever been to Jerusalem? If yes did u stare at the border of isreal and palestine? If yes then u will realize that oil and water can never mix... cos of the mentality in both the communities.

Chocoholic wrote:Killing another innocent is always wrong. Suicide bombers are the most cowardly people possible, they don't discriminate who they kill and are prepared to kill fellow muslims in a heartbeat - very sad.

So are you going to condem the group which just murdered a Christian peacekeeper in Iraq after holding him hostage for months, then tortuing him before shooting him in the head and dumping his body by the side of the road? His only crime was to be in the country, siding with the Iraqi people and helping them to find peace in their country! Did he deserve to die? And what about the other 3 hostages that were held along with him? Do they deserve the same fate? When all they want to do is help the Iraqi people, or are they being punished just because they are Western Christians?

What about the other 54 foreigners who've so far been kidnapped and killed in Iraq? What about the thousands of Iraqi's kidnapped and murdered by there own people in the name of 'their religion'?

Sorry but the people committing these atrocities are the ones you should be mad at, bringing the name of Islam and Muslims into desrepute and causing headlines such as the above.

A recent survey in the US now shows that 43% associate Islam with violence, terrorism, suicide bombings and murder - I wonder why?

have u ever been on a war? If yes the life is in the hands of the General ordering who can make "innocent" ppl - targets and useless ppl as collateral damage. Well who gives a damn what Americans think in recent survey found 53% of high school can't find North america on map! Most of them read from media and are too busy to find out the truth. As for those terrorists those f00ls dont give damn about religion , all they want is money. Saddam in his defence said "now you know the reason why I was a despot leader".... I guess he was right.

sniper420 wrote:well have u ever been to Jerusalem? If yes did u stare at the border of isreal and palestine? If yes then u will realize that oil and water can never mix... cos of the mentality in both the communities.

I don't agree, actually i think the original Palestinians and the original Jews could get along, it is just unfortunate that so many outside forces (both Arab and not) are manipulating the system. even during my 6 hour stint at a border crossing in Israel the "local" Israelis were friendly and hospitable to all Arab appearing people and it was returned but the foreigners (in this case mostly Russian Jews) were very rude and quick to insult.

As Shafique mentioned in one of his posts earlier the golden period for the Jews was actually when Muslims were in charge, it was the only time they weren't persecuted.

I do hope one day that we'll all be able to live in peace, whether you Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. But politically and economically peace is usually a disadvantage and that is what is truly sad with society.

But politically and economically peace is usually a disadvantage and that is what is truly sad with society.

So true fayz...best example is the most powerful nation in the world right now.

fayz wrote:

sniper420 wrote:well have u ever been to Jerusalem? If yes did u stare at the border of isreal and palestine? If yes then u will realize that oil and water can never mix... cos of the mentality in both the communities.

I don't agree, actually i think the original Palestinians and the original Jews could get along, it is just unfortunate that so many outside forces (both Arab and not) are manipulating the system. even during my 6 hour stint at a border crossing in Israel the "local" Israelis were friendly and hospitable to all Arab appearing people and it was returned but the foreigners (in this case mostly Russian Jews) were very rude and quick to insult.

As Shafique mentioned in one of his posts earlier the golden period for the Jews was actually when Muslims were in charge, it was the only time they weren't persecuted.

I do hope one day that we'll all be able to live in peace, whether you Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. But politically and economically peace is usually a disadvantage and that is what is truly sad with society.

Well i didnt talk of Jews , I talked about the wealth and mentality difference of hardcore Palestinians and Zionists. I know a guy who is staunch Zionist! Same mentality as any Al qaeda mullah difference is he wears black cap behind and has Elvis styles hair...... Yep I agree with yeah most Ashkenazi Jews are rude. They even diiscriminate Sephardic (real Arab) Jews.

Could we try to remember that these suicide bombers arent actually "Muslim"?

If you are educated in Islam or even know what Islam means, you will get my point.

Jews in Europe were rounded up and sent to Hitler's concentration camps where millions died. The Jews try to make a homeland where they can live together and protect themselves - and they were originally from the area - it isn't like they randomly chose a place to stake a flag and plant their home. Why can't anyone understand that they want to survive, just like any other group of people. I'm not justifying Israel's killing of innocent Palestinians and other bad policies, but I do feel they have a right to a homeland.

Both people are from the area and were displacing each other over hundreds of years - each has claim to the area.

Israelis and Palestinians need to learn to live in peace together.

Kanelli,

The problem is that two wrongs cannot make a right.

The Jews were oppressed in Europe - no question. So were the Gypsies (Romany people), so were other nationalities (I forget which, but I think Armenians and other races were subject to genocide).

Historically the Jewish nation were in positions of power in Palestine only for limited periods in history and the last time being over a 1000 years ago (please correct me if I'm mistaken). When they travelled to the 'Promised Land' - at the time of Moses, they weren't the rulers and subsequent to the exodus fought with the people living in those lands for control. When they got control it was lost pretty quick after that, to the point that Nebuchanezzar (sp?) dispersed the Jewish tribes across the then known world - or at least the Babylonian empire. (The temple of Solomon was destroyed twice, by the Babylonians and Romans I seem to remember)

At the time of Jesus - some 1300 years after Moses, Palestine was under the control of the Romans. That was 2000 years ago!

Human life is equal and human rights should be equal.

No Palestinian's ancestor ever oppressed a Jew (go back 10 generations if you wish). But by your logic, because at some period in history over a 1000 years ago the Jews were in power, then they should have a 'right' to displace people that have been there for a millenium at least.

Ok, let's say I agree with this premise.

Then, by that logic, why shouldn't Native American Indians reclaim Manhattan from the relative newcomers - the Whites?

Why should not the Aborigines of Australia claim all the prime real estate of Sydney and Canberra?

In both of the above cases, atrocities and genocide was committed against these people and they became disposessed. And all of these took place not 1000 years ago, but within a few generations of the current inhabitants!!

If it is, and I suspect it will be, unthinkable for a New Yorker to give up his/her right to live and vote in New York because the area is handed over to Native Americans - why is the reaction of Palestinians anything but understandable?

Substitute 'Native Indian' for 'Israeli' and 'New Yorker' for 'Palestinian' in your post and see whether you still can make the same argument. I suspect that you will be in the minority if you can make the same argument with a straight face.

Just my 2 cents worth.. no offence meant.



PS hope to meet sometime now that we are settling in.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shafique, I agree that we are talking about things that happened a thousand years ago or more, but the fact remains that the area has religious significance, and that is why both Israelis and Palestinians want to hold on to the area. Where else do you think that the Jews should have chosen, or do you think they should have remained scattered all over the world and vulnerable to anti-Semitic behaviour. They were betrayed by many governments and sent to their slaughter - of course they want to protect against that ever happening again.

The fact remains that Israel exists - it is time to focus on what to do next. Expelling the Israelis is an unreasonable expectation, especially after all these years.

I definitely don't think that two wrongs make a right. What happened to the Jews is an extreme case.

This may be shocking to some, but I wouldn't blame Aboriginals for reclaiming old territory. However, I don't believe that this would happen. Aboriginal people still value nature and their traditional ways, and built up cities like New York etc. are not what they want or need. Aboriginals in many countries are making land claims, and some are also fighting for the right to self-government, so issues still persist.

In most cases where regions want to separate from their country, I support it if I see that the majority speaks for that. For example, if enough citizens in Quebec wanted to separate, they should be allowed to do so without military intervention and civil war.

Kanelli,

Your view of the 'Aboriginal' as a noble savage is endearing - they value nature and would not want to have all the built up areas and modern stuff that Sydney now is.

Perhaps you are right - then, surely they should just charge everyone rent?

As for religious significance of Palestine and where else could the Jews be made to feel at home.

Let me deal with the second question first:
- why not set up a Jewish homeland in Europe? That is where all the jews who were persecuted were (they chose to go there), so why not set up a homeland there and afford them all the protection they aspire to. That will satisfy the principle of justice.

To this day there are big Jewish communities in New York, London and other metropolitan centres throughout the world - but ironically, less and less in Eastern Europe. We should have set up a homeland for where all these people were actually residing and this would serve as a testimony that Hitler's efforts were thwarted and Europe would never countenance a religious genocide ever again (please, no one mention Bosnia/Kosovo).

The Jewish people were in Europe out of choice - they could have remained in Palestine and not face any discrimination, but they chose to move to more economically viable areas of Europe/America and it is only there that they faced anti-semitism. Under Muslim rule, Jews were not discriminated against - remember.

This leads us to the second question - the religious significance of the area of Palestine.

The region is equally religiously signifcant for Muslims, Christians and Jews. Justice would say that because of this fact, no one religious group should be given the priority over the other - in fact, religion should not really come into it. The people living in the land, of whatever religion, for the previous thousand years should be turfed out because of their religion. They should not be dispossessed of basic human rights and live as refugees in the land of their fore-fathers.

I do not buy the 'we used to rule the land at one point and God says we are the rightful owners of the promised land' arguement.

For me, I am afraid, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck and has the dna of a duck - then it is a duck. Dispossessing a population from their land because of their religion/race is plain and simply wrong and unjustifiable.

I say, create an Israel in Bavaria!

Cheers,
Shafique

Interesting language Shafique - noble savage, endearing... Thanks for the sarcasm You get my point - the aboriginals are making land claims for natural areas where they can use the natural resources. They don't try to claim a large city. Where would they get the money to make a legal case for taking over Sydney, New York or Ottawa? What would they do with a big expensive-to-run city and how would they collect the rent?

New York or some other European city don't have the same religious and historical significance - that is why the Jews chose Palestine. Even if they did choose somewhere else, there would be problems. They are where they are now and there needs to be peace. Why can't they share? Do some of you really favour exterminating the Jews, or exterminating the Palestinians as a solution? Each side has run the other side off the land over the years - who cares how many years are between. At some point the displacement has to stop and the peace has to start.

I'm glad the sarcasm wasn't lost... aborigines have as much right to modern amenities as anyone else, and all those people rotting away in reservations drinking themselves to death aren't pining for the open bush on the doorstep of their reservation... but that is another story, and I guess GAB will be better placed to argue this point!

At the end of the day, I just feel that the claim that Israel needs to be where it is because of religious reasons as untenable. Muslims and Christians can make exactly the same claim - and yet still, the area has always supported people who were not from the Jewish tribes! The Bible talks of all the non-Jewish inhabitants and rulers of the lands.

I was trying to make the point that the 'religious' reasoning isn't one that stands any scrutiny - it plays well ('It's the promised land of the Bible and we NEED to be in Palestine.') - but it is less merit than that of Aboriginal and Native American claims.

Anyhoo - that all relates to the creation of Israel. Now that Israel is a fact, we cannot ignore that it exists. My view is that the Israelis should honour the 1967 border and heed all the UN resolutions to vacate the land they illegally occupy (illegal according to International law) and give this land back to the Palestinians. That is the very least they should do.

Going back to the 1967 borders will also mean that Jerusalem is shared between Israel and the Arabs.

Oh - I would also say that the Israelis should stop the illegal activities of collective punishments - bulldozing of homes of families, the razing of orchards etc. The illegal assassinations (euphemistically called targeted killings), invasions of territories etc should also stop. It doesn't help anyone - at best it creates resentment and means they lose the moral ground despite having the superior fire power.

Once this is done, then we can discuss the status of the inhabitants of the refugee camps who don't have the rights of Israelis.

I'll get off my soap box now.



Cheers,
Shafique

I didn't say anywhere that aboriginals didn't have the right to modern amenities. In fact, I never said anything derrogatory about aboriginals at all, so no sarcasm was needed. We do have aboriginals in Canada, so I know what is going on. The idea of aboriginals trying to claim a large city is what I found silly - not aboriginal people and their plight.

I can understand that Palestinians are upset (and the rest of the Muslim world seems to take it as a personal offense too) and I sympathise. I know that they are being treated unfairly and I don't support Israel's behaviour on many issues.

Kanelli,

I think you and I agree more than the above posts would imply..

I apologise for any offense the sarcastic remarks may have caused.

Take care,
Shafique

No worries Thanks for not flaming me for discussing the Israel/Palestine conflict. It is a touchy subject and I know some people might get quite angry. I mean no offence, I basically wanted to say that I can see both sides and that there should be peace between the two.

SheikhaS wrote:Could we try to remember that these suicide bombers arent actually "Muslim"?

If you are educated in Islam or even know what Islam means, you will get my point.

How can you say that, when many of them are. Why do you think we have the term 'Muslim fanatic' or 'Muslim fundamentalist' these things sadly weren't dreamt up.

Shaf and Kanelli, I just think it's about time people learnt to live together. In this day and age I think it's very sad that people fight over a piece of land. In an ideal world people should be allowed to put down roots wherever they want and live in peace alongside one another. I find it very sad that this bit of land means so much to so many and they're willing to kill over it - makes no sense to me.

Very interesting you 2, i enjoyed very much reading what i think was a sort of pro/againt aguement. Thank God Liban aint here

As a matter of interest, how much land/area would the "palestinians" need to put this matter to bed, or is it a "particular" area that is in dispute?


And Shaf buddy,

Should't you be getting your head down and doing some work ya skivver, and dont say it was in my lunch break

Arnie- I need my daily fix of the forum.... I'm suffering withdrawal symptoms of not having internet access away from the office. Sad really!

Choco - people should learn to live together, absolutely. Arnie's question about how much land the Palestinians require impacts on this point as well.

When South Africa was under white rule and Apartheid was the law, a similar arguement could have been made - the blacks should just learn to live with the whites and stop fighting.

Mandela was the leader of the militant arm of the ANC, and was responsible for many guerilla attacks - mostly against property. This was branded as terrorism.

The analogy with Apartheid is very apt - for the refugees in Israel, living in camps for the past 50 years, have been dispossessed of their land, their nationality and latterly of their human rights. Can you imagine becoming a refugee in your own land? I do think that people lose sight of what refugee actually means - these guys are not Israelis, they have had their land confiscated by the Israeli state and are now without a nation.

It is partly their fault, you may say, for choosing not to become Israeli citizens - but their status is recognised by the international community, so who am I to blame them?

Coming back to Arnie's question about how much land? For starters, why not go back to internationally accepted borders of Israel so that Israel is no longer in breach of international law and UN resolutions. The fact that we are dealing with a state that flouts international law, engages in human rights abuses (according to Amnesty, UN etc - eg. collective punishments, 'targeted' killings) makes it harder to swallow the argument that the Palestinians should stop whining and accept their lot!

I hope the last statement isn't too harsh, but that is the sentiment those who are familiar with the situation in Palestine will read into statements that people should (just) learn to live together.

My view, for absolute clarity, is that people SHOULD agitate and fight for basic human rights and justice. I do what I can. Where there is injustice, silence is tantamount to collusion.

Now, the fighting in Palestine is not one against religions - Palestinians aren't calling for the killing of Jews living in Australia, for example. They are fighting against their oppressors and occupiers of their land.

The UN agrees that there is illegal occupation going on and that there is human rights abuses.

I would not have dreamt of telling the French resistance during the second world war to just accept the occupation and learn to live with the Nazis. Would you have?

Anyway, enough of the tortured analogies... back to work now - no personal attacks ever intended in this post..

Wasalaam (peace)
Shafique

kanelli wrote:I didn't say anywhere that aboriginals didn't have the right to modern amenities. In fact, I never said anything derrogatory about aboriginals at all, so no sarcasm was needed. We do have aboriginals in Canada, so I know what is going on. The idea of aboriginals trying to claim a large city is what I found silly - not aboriginal people and their plight.

I can understand that Palestinians are upset (and the rest of the Muslim world seems to take it as a personal offense too) and I sympathise. I know that they are being treated unfairly and I don't support Israel's behaviour on many issues.

as with the case of aborginals, their condition is worse... they themselves and the govenment are to blame...alcoholism, drugs, suicide rates are high there...the last chief who surrendered to europeans foresaw this. Giving them seperate reserve wasnt the right solution cos they dont have much contact with rest of the world.. claiming and blaiming west.. i guess it's time they move and reside with rest of pop so their generation could recuperate . Now there is retrograde cycle of poverty which West had been responsible for. they have to find a way so they can merge with rest of pop and convince them that their traditions can b preserved without living in reserve.

I dont think giving them special quota like reserving seats in law and business skool isnt going to solve the case either. Instead it will create inferioty complex in them. Take the case of locals in Aus and schduled caste or tribe in places like India

People can play the blame card as often as they like but Abos get more than enough welfare benefits and what happens with this money? Alocohol, drugs and gambling.