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event horizon · Dec 29, 2010

O you who believe, equivalence is the law decreed for you when dealing with murder - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the female for the female. If one is pardoned by the victim's kin, an appreciative response is in order, and an equitable compensation shall be paid. This is an alleviation from your Lord and mercy. Anyone who transgresses beyond this incurs a painful retribution.

The law of Qisas favors the wealthy who have the money to pay compensation to their victims (blood money)

Well, the lesson for today is not to attack someone with acid while living in Saudi Arabia or Iran.

In this case, the courts ruled that a man who threw acid on another man must lose his eye and ear based on the law of Qisas in the Koran.

An Iranian court has ruled that a man must lose his eye and part of an ear after he blinded and burnt an ear of another man in an acid attack

Judge Aziz Mohammadi gave the order against the man, who was only identified as Hamid, after convicting him of throwing acid on the victim, named as Davoud, hardline Kayhan newspaper reported on Wednesday.

The judge also ordered Hamid to pay blood-money for the burn injuries suffered by Davoud, who was 22 at the time of the attack, in a ruling issued under the Islamic Republic's eye-for-an-eye justice code.

Hamid told the court he had mistaken Davoud for a classmate who had bullied him in high school, saying that even after moving, he remained tormented by the memory of the bullying.

The report, quoting other sources, including Iran's Fars news agency, did not say whether the authorities would, in fact, carry out the punishment by using acid or via surgery.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middl ... 10169.html

I posted on a similar story from Saudi Arabia about a man who faced paralysis after he paralyzed someone else and the victim wanted his attacker to be crippled as he was.

However, it looks like the Saudi authorities in that case decided that following the Koran was not the best choice and apparently convinced the paralyzed man to accept blood money from his attacker.

It's just a shame when Islamic states do not follow the basic tenets of their holy book.

shafique · Dec 30, 2010

Iranian court: Man to lose eye, ear
In a literal interpretation of its eye-for-an eye law, an Iranian court orders a man to lose an eye and part of an ear.

Now, remind me again where the phrase 'eye for an eye' comes from? Is it not a Biblical commandment?

And as al-Jazeera reports (but eh doesn't quote):

Various interpretations of the (originally) Babylonian law that specifies an eye-for-an-eye - a tenet under the Islamic Sharia code - exist in the region, often in cases involving less severe recompense. Judaic and Christian laws also hold similar tenets.

However, the limits of the law are sometimes tested, as in one case in Saudi Arabia in August, when a court investigated whether severing the spinal cord of a man found guilty of paralysing a man he attacked with a cleaver would, in fact, kill him.

The verse in the Quran is 2.178 - which Yusuf Ali translates as such. Note the highlighted portion below:

178. O ye who believe! The law of equality Is prescribed to you In cases of murder: The free for the free,
The slave for the slave, The woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother Of the slain, then grant Any reasonable demand, And compensate him With handsome gratitude.
This is a concession And a Mercy From your Lord. After this whoever Exceeds the limits Shall be in grave penalty.

So again, 10/10 for effort - lower score for effectiveness from our young sheikh.

I look forward to a post in future that does not rely on selective quotes and fanciful interpretations - but then again, from experience this is the only way an Islamophobe can construct an argument.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Dec 30, 2010

You can debate all day and turn around interpretations of whos done it before, or wher it comes from, fact is that it is an Iranian court , today, and not 2,000 years ago, who ordered this barbaric judgment.

event horizon · Dec 30, 2010

So again, 10/10 for effort - lower score for effectiveness from our young sheikh.

So you're siding against a fellow Muslim who wants Koranic justice to be performed?

The man was paralyzed (from Saudi Arabia) and he wants his attacker paralyzed too - he's refused blood money.

The Koran is pretty clear (quoting Yusuf Ali doesn't help your credibility) - it says that Muslims have the option of inflicting a punishment on their attackers that they themselves have suffered.

But perhaps you can show us all the verse where it says to ignore a few verses in the Koran and not paralyze someone if they paralyzed their victim ?

kanelli · Dec 30, 2010

So Christianity and Judaism don't have the same comments in their holy books? What is the exact quote that says "eye for an eye" in the Quran? I don't see anything that says that in any of the above quotes. As far as I know, all religions have had pretty severe punishments in the past and some currently, and it has been based on what is accepted in society as a whole according to the scale of development of the society. Societies that have less regard for human life tend to have more severe punishments (this includes the US). So is it religion or culture or both? Some of you see it as clear cut when it comes to Islam, but have you looked at other religions and holy books!

herve · Dec 30, 2010

kanelli wrote:So Christianity and Judaism don't have the same comments in their holy books? What is the exact quote that says "eye for an eye" in the Quran? I don't see anything that says that in any of the above quotes. As far as I know, all religions have had pretty severe punishments in the past and some currently, and it has been based on what is accepted in society as a whole according to the scale of development of the society. Societies that have less regard for human life tend to have more severe punishments (this includes the US). I don't think it is the religion that makes the difference.

Kanelli can you name a western country, a Christian community who sentence somebody TODAY, not 2000 years ago , to have is eye removed, his hands chopped off, or his spinal cord severed?
Whatever Christians did 1500 years ago they evolved, Muslims did not, their time clock stopped in 700

shafique · Dec 30, 2010

My clock is working fine.

Kanelli's questions though were about scriptural references - and are quite valid, given that the OP starts with a sciptural reference.

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli · Dec 30, 2010

Well, either the bible and quran say that it should be "eye for an eye" or they don't. Whether or not societies practice that is interesting, don't you think? Maybe the Christians are going against God by not chopping off hands and severing spinal cords?

herve · Dec 30, 2010

shafique wrote:My clock is working fine.

Kanelli's questions though were about scriptural references - and are quite valid, given that the OP starts with a sciptural reference.

Cheers,
Shafique

Yeah, why don t you talk about scriptural differences to the guy who has his hands chopped off, or to the women who is being stoned to death, I am sure it wont be in French or English, but in Arabic, your language shafique.
Kaneli, you are wrong , Christians have for long separated religion from justice, the Muslims did not

kanelli · Dec 30, 2010

No one says those things are pleasant. I'm sure the guy getting electrocuted or lethally injected in the US, or shot in the head in China aren't enjoying that too much either. Either the holy books say it is so, or they don't - which is it? Are some following their religious texts more closely than others? Maybe God is vengeful and brutal. There is a hell isn't there?

shafique · Dec 30, 2010

The Quran gives maximum and minimum punishments for crimes.

The verse in particular actually states that the punishment should not exceed the crime (which is indeed what the intention of eye-for-eye in the Bible is) and also states that forgiveness is also a valid option.

I do believe that this is a sensible law that is wise and applicable today. It does not mean that all murderers are killed, nor does Shariah say that all theives have their hands chopped off either.

I do believe that capital punishment (the state killing someone) for the worst crimes should be an option - but many states and people think this is barbaric. I respect this point of view, but I hold a different point of view which I believe is more in line with justice - taking into account the pain of victims, their families and society in general.

Indeed, we've had forum members here who have celebrated the murder of a Palestinian in Dubai by Mossad - thinking it a worthy act. So, I presume they also have no issue with capital punishments.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Dec 30, 2010

kanelli wrote:No one says those things are pleasant. I'm sure the guy getting electrocuted or lethally injected in the US, or shot in the head in China aren't enjoying that too much either. Either the holy books say it is so, or they don't - which is it? Are some following their religious texts more closely than others? Maybe God is vengeful and brutal. There is a hell isn't there?

Kanelli No women get stoned to death for adultery , and no shoplifters get his his hands chopped off in the western world.
And there is no God in china, they dont have a religion there , so they dont get their justice codes out of some mass delusion.

-- Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:07 am --

shafique wrote:The Quran gives maximum and minimum punishments for crimes.

The verse in particular actually states that the punishment should not exceed the crime (which is indeed what the intention of eye-for-eye in the Bible is) and also states that forgiveness is also a valid option.

I do believe that this is a sensible law that is wise and applicable today. It does not mean that all murderers are killed, nor does Shariah say that all theives have their hands chopped off either.

I do believe that capital punishment (the state killing someone) for the worst crimes should be an option - but many states and people think this is barbaric. I respect this point of view, but I hold a different point of view which I believe is more in line with justice - taking into account the pain of victims, their families and society in general.

Indeed, we've had forum members here who have celebrated the murder of a Palestinian in Dubai by Mossad - thinking it a worthy act. So, I presume they also have no issue with capital punishments.

Cheers,
Shafique

Do you support death by stoning for a cheating woman?, do you support hands chopped off.
Do you support the death sentence against those who portray your phrophet in indecent poses on cartoons?
The palesto guy died of natural cause , given his line of business , he was no business man or tourist on vacation, but a terrorist planning for deadly actions, he met his fate.

kanelli · Dec 30, 2010

Does the quran tell Iranians to do chop hands and stone women or not? Do other Islamic countries do the same? I'm saying that religious text can be interpreted different ways and can be used as a excuse for things done for cultural reasons in a society - no matter what the level of development. Homosexuality is not cool in the bible, but you see gay clergy now and acceptance of hom.o.s.exuality in Western countries. So, is the West following the bible in conduct or following the dominant culture of the populations (which are increasingly less religious - Church populations dwindling.)

event horizon · Dec 30, 2010

I do believe that this is a sensible law that is wise and applicable today. It does not mean that all murderers are killed, nor does Shariah say that all theives have their hands chopped off either.

So you're now siding with your fellow coreligionist who wanted to see his attacker paralyzed like he was - based entirely on what the Koran allows?

Cool.

I, too, agree with you that this interpretation of the Koran in inflicting the same type of injuries the victim received, if the victim chooses revenge, is a valid option and one we see being put into practice in 'modern' societies today.

It will be interesting to see if the Saudis do indeed adhere to their scriptures in honoring the expressed desire of the man who was crippled in seeking to cripple his attacker or if they will ignore what the Koran allows. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

In Iran though it seems the Koran is held in higher esteem and the courts are less hesitant to adhere to the letter of the law outlined in the Koran.

shafique · Dec 30, 2010

The Bible and Quran do give maximum punishments for crimes that are quite horrific and for crimes which some may consider trivial.

Eg. Exodus 21:15, 17 (King James Version)
15And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
17And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

So just swearing at your parents is worthy of the death penalty.

However, what happens in reality is that these laws describing maximum punishments are applied by judges who assess the merits of the case. These aren't minimum sentences, but rather maximum.

Indeed, the original article quoted by eh went on to make the point about interpretations that exist of these Scriptural laws for an eye-for-an-eye - I quoted that bit in my first reply in this thread.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Dec 30, 2010

kanelli wrote: it has been based on what is accepted in society as a whole according to the scale of development of the society.

That completely doesnt explain the huge support for sharia law amongst Muslims living in Western Europe.

event horizon · Dec 30, 2010

Does the quran tell Iranians to do chop hands

Yes.

Do other Islamic countries do the same?

Yes, but not all of them. Some countries have the Koran and Sunnah as the primary source of legislation. These countries will have the law of retaliation, crucifixion, hand chopping, cross amputation, lashings and stoning as punishments.

So, is the West following the bible in conduct or following the dominant culture of the populations

I don't know which mainstream Christian denomination finds homos.exual relations acceptable.

The Bible or any other cultures more than two hundred years old did not have the same concept of homosexuality that we do today.

melika969 · Dec 30, 2010

kanelli wrote:Does the quran tell Iranians to do chop hands and stone women or not? Do other Islamic countries do the same? I'm saying that religious text can be interpreted different ways and can be used as a excuse for things done for cultural reasons in a society - no matter what the level of development. Homosexuality is not cool in the bible, but you see gay clergy now and acceptance of hom.o.s.exuality in Western countries. So, is the West following the bible in conduct or following the dominant culture of the populations (which are increasingly less religious - Church populations dwindling.)

There is no cultural background for chopping hands or stonning in Iran, Kanelli! before Islam evaded Iran, there were no such punishments.

And yes, chopping hands are in Quran, stonnning is not(btw, stonning is for both men and women!), but both were practiced in the prophet time, so that s how muslims interpret their laws. They are not just based on Quran!

event horizon · Dec 30, 2010

So just swearing at your parents is worthy of the death penalty.

Interesting, the Koran says it's 'ok' to kill your children if they will (sometime in the future) disobey their parents.

Don't know of any other religious text that allows for that.

kanelli · Dec 30, 2010

And he just quoted Exodus which says that those who "curseth" their parents will surely be killed. No comments about that one?

So people, are you following your religious texts or the cultural practices of modern or old times?

melika969 · Dec 30, 2010

kanelli wrote:So people, are you following your religious texts or the cultural practices of modern or old times?

Did you read my post about cultural practices?

shafique · Dec 30, 2010

LOL - eh that's a new one on me. The Quran I have doesn't say it is ok for me to kill my kids if they disobey me.

Mel - as for ancient pre-Islamic Persia - they had some inventive ways of executing people (please excuse going slightly off topic):

Scaphism, also known as the boats, was an ancient Persian method of execution designed to inflict torturous death. The name comes from the Greek word skaphe, meaning "scooped (or hollowed) out".

The naked person was firmly fastened within a face-to-face pair of narrow rowing boats (or a hollowed-out tree trunk), with the head, hands and feet protruding. The condemned was forced to ingest milk and honey to the point of developing severe diarrhea, and more honey would be rubbed on his body to attract insects to the exposed appendages. He or she would then be left to float on a stagnant pond or be exposed to the sun. The defenseless individual's feces accumulated within the container, attracting more insects, which would eat and breed within his or her exposed and increasingly gangrenous flesh. The feeding would be repeated each day in some cases to prolong the torture, so that dehydration or starvation did not provide him or her with the release of death. Death, when it eventually occurred, was probably due to a combination of dehydration, starvation and septic shock. Delirium would typically set in after a few days.
...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaphism

event horizon · Dec 30, 2010

Indeed. If you don't honor your parents, turn rebellious or convert to another religion, your parents may have a right to kill you - it's all in the Koran, unfortunately.

The Quran I have doesn't say it is ok for me to kill my kids if they disobey me.

Maybe you just haven't fully read your Koran yet.

It's in there.

shafique · Dec 30, 2010

Really?

Any parent can kill their child because they 'turn rebellious'. :roll:

(A strange reaction to the Bible saying that a child swearing at their parents should be killed - 10/10 for inventiveness though - but note I just quoted the verse from Exodus in full.)

I have a bridge to sell - are you interested?

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Dec 30, 2010

kanelli wrote:And he just quoted Exodus which says that those who "curseth" their parents will surely be killed. No comments about that one?

So people, are you following your religious texts or the cultural practices of modern or old times?

Very peculiar that Islamic punishments need to be explained or compaired with Christianity or Judaism. I still have to meet a Christian or jew saying, "but, but, its also in the Quran".

event horizon · Dec 30, 2010

As I said, unfortunately the example of honor killing rebellious/apostate children is in the Koran.

Who knows how many children have been honor killed over the past 1400 years because of that one lone verse.

Sad really.

shafique · Dec 30, 2010

LOL - nice one eh. Still no quote from the Quran I see. You're setting yourself up for yet another epic fail.

What's the matter.. is JihadWatch down right now?

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli · Dec 30, 2010

Flying Dutchman wrote:
kanelli wrote:And he just quoted Exodus which says that those who "curseth" their parents will surely be killed. No comments about that one?

So people, are you following your religious texts or the cultural practices of modern or old times?

Very peculiar that Islamic punishments need to be explained or compaired with Christianity or Judaism. I still have to meet a Christian or jew saying, "but, but, its also in the Quran".

What I think is funny is people overlooking the nasty stuff said in the bible etc. and exclusively point fingers at Islam.

Flying Dutchman · Dec 30, 2010

kanelli wrote:
Flying Dutchman wrote:
kanelli wrote:And he just quoted Exodus which says that those who "curseth" their parents will surely be killed. No comments about that one?

So people, are you following your religious texts or the cultural practices of modern or old times?

Very peculiar that Islamic punishments need to be explained or compaired with Christianity or Judaism. I still have to meet a Christian or jew saying, "but, but, its also in the Quran".

What I think is funny is people overlooking the nasty stuff said in the bible etc. and exclusively point fingers at Islam.

I dont think it is overlooked (a lot joke about it). People moved forward. Most of Islam didnt. And yes, its mainly Islam executing these punishments. Cant see a reason why not oppose hand chopping, lashes for fornicators etc. done in the name of Islam. For me, opposing these punishments is a good thing. Other think different apparently.

kanelli · Dec 30, 2010

So, the West can find it distasteful and it can not be practiced in the West. There is no need to allow Sharia law in the West (unless Islam becomes the predominate religion, which it may do one day.) Other societies should not be forced to change more quickly than they are ready for - it took thousands of years for Western society to become what it has - the good and the bad. People all over the world find parts of other religions and cultures distasteful. Most religious books call for vengeful death punishments for some "crimes" and I'm not entirely sure it came from the lips of God or was rather simply what was practiced by more primitive societies at that time the holy books were written (Do you know?). If it came from the lips of God, then Christianity in the West is corrupted and not following God rules any longer.

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Man To Lose His Eye And Ear - Based On The Koran

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