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The Israeli Military Occupation has lasted over 60 years. You can't spin this fact - a military occupation is a military occupation.

Israel has illegally stolen land - see UN resolution 478 which categorically states that Israel's unilateral re-naming of parts of the West Bank as 'Jerusalem' and then annexing it, is illegal. Golan heights being annexed - also illegal. This year, UN and EU says the demolitions in the illegally annexed East Jerusalem - also illegal:
dubai-politics-talk/immune-from-spin-this-time-t42372-15.html
(And indeed, you'll see a quote there which explains why Israel is a rogue state)

Historic Palestine is defined clearly in the Hope Simpson report of 1930 (which you brought our attention to) - and excludes Jordan (or Transjordan as it was called then). It clearly defines a country called Palestine.

But, again with the smokescreens?

Just provide us with the numbers for the first graph, or admit that you just posted a pretty picture.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:The Israeli Military Occupation has lasted over 60 years. You can't spin this fact

2010 - 1967 = 43

43 < 60

First off all FD I appologized before I make a personal-ish remark as I could not find any other words to describe your remarks. But anyway do not shed corcodile tears as you yourself are pretty guilty of that ( Troll remarks ? )

Anyways thats besides the point. The IPC is a bone of contention as the Arabs nations will not resume official relations with Israel and that does create dischord within the region. So to say the IPC is not hampering stabilty and peace in the region is untrue. I've already said many have used it to their advantage as a bargaining chip, but thats beside the point.

We can debate for the rest of the year and the next as to what belonged to whom but it would be fruitless. Historic this and historic that is a hogwash. The point is in talking about the now and the present. Israel does not want to have peace which is very evident from the recent talks aswell. A 3 billion dollar bribe also did not work. They want to have peace aslong as they can continue to steal and develop land for their own use.

The Arab peace plan has been sitting in a drawer somewhere in the white house gathering dust for years. A plan which including hamas and all Arab nations have signed which recognises Israel and state they will all normalise relations with Israel. A plan which Israel still has not even officially responded to. So who is at fault here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

And all this and whatever you have said has nothing to do with the OP. A misleading and deceptive pie chart.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote:The Israeli Military Occupation has lasted over 60 years. You can't spin this fact

2010 - 1967 = 43

43 < 60

Again attempts to trivialize things. So a 43 year military occupation is OK then ? Just as a 60 deaths is ok but not a 100 ?

desertdudeshj wrote:Again attempts to trivialize things.

Just calling out a misrepresentation of the facts.

desertdudeshj wrote:So a 43 year military occupation is OK then ?

According to UN resolution 242 it is.

desertdudeshj wrote:Just as a 60 deaths is ok but not a 100 ?

No, not at all. 60 deaths is not ok and also 100 death is not ok.

^ The Jewish caricature needs more seething.

I'm just not buying the depiction that he wants all Ayrabs dead.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:So a 43 year military occupation is OK then ?

According to UN resolution 242 it is.

I dunno maybe I don't have my rose tinted glasses on, what part of 242 says its ok ?

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/RESOLU ... penElement

desertdudeshj wrote:

Flying Dutchman wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:So a 43 year military occupation is OK then ?

According to UN resolution 242 it is.

I dunno maybe I don't have my rose tinted glasses on, what part of 242 says its ok ?

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/RESOLU ... penElement

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."

No ii, no i.

Oops - 43 years vs over 60 years of Military occupation by Israel. Yes, guilty as charged for this numerical spoonerism. It is the Nakba that is over 60 years - the tragedy there being the refugees. My bad.

Still, can't spin 43 years of Military Occupation as anything other than a Military Occupation (but you've got to give FD credit for trying).

And for the stealing of land, UN resolution 478, the boundaries of the country of Palestine as defined in Hope Simpson etc etc - we don't hear a peep.

Similarly with the actual figures underlying the graph in the OP. Hype, but no substance.

Cheers,
Shafique

Yeah and ? And where does it say its allright. I dunno my English comprehension skills must be getting really old now. As I see/read it, first Israel withdraws from all occupied territories and then everybody STFUs and sticks with in their borders.

Not Israel gets to keep whatever it has annexed and no one can question it about it ?

But thanks for the rose tinted interpretation to see where your comming from.

desertdudeshj wrote: As I see/read it, first Israel withdraws from all occupied territories

Where in the text you copy pasted does it state that Israel has to withdrawal from ALL the territories it conquered. It reads that Israel has to retreat from territories it conquered. A literal interpretation of that, means that Israel kept its part of res 242 by leaving the Sinai.

desertdudeshj wrote:But thanks for the rose tinted interpretation to see where your comming from.

I am just guessing that knee-jerking personal attacks cannot be helped.

^You really can't keep a straight face and argue that handing back the Egyptian land occupied in 1967 but holding on to the land in Palestine and Syria is complying with UN resolution 242??

Pretty much the first act by the Military Occupiers in 1967 was a war crime (under Geneva conventions) when the Israelis evicted the Palestinian inhabitants of the Maghreb quarter in Jerusalem and bulldozed their homes and forbade them from returning.

The annexation of Jersusalem (and Golan) is un-ambiguously against International Law (hence why you seem to have a blind spot for this fact).

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Pretty much the first act by the Military Occupiers in 1967 was a war crime (under Geneva conventions) when the Israelis evicted the Palestinian inhabitants of the Maghreb quarter in Jerusalem and bulldozed their homes and forbade them from returning.

I have some sympathy for removing toilets attached to the most holiest of sites for Jews by Israel. Muslims wouldnt be happy with dung in the Kaaba. I could only imagine the reaction. I believe a whole thread is dedicted to this, so I suggest discussing it there.

shafique wrote:The annexation of Jersusalem (and Golan) is un-ambiguously against International Law (hence why you seem to have a blind spot for this fact).

Nope, I do consider the annexations illegal. What is more on topic, is the blind spot of many when it comes the intra-Arab wars and annexations.

You have some sympathy for a war crime?

Having your home demolished and bannished from the area by the military occupier is a war crime.

As for whether you think the war crime is justified - that is for you. We should look to see what the law says though - as there will always be people who support criminals. We should at least be able to agree on what the law says an occupying power can and can't do to the homes of those living in the land they occupy militarily.

I'm glad though, that you don't deny that the annexations are illegal. It is indeed as illegal as other illegal stealings of land by others.

Cheers,
Shafique

Another prime example. Israel removes toilets from the Western Wall and its presented as one the worst war crimes ever. Christians in Iraq, and many other Arab countries are prosecuted by Muslims, no nobody gives an iota. Leave alone all the churches and other holy places that are destroyed by Muslim conquerers in order to build mosques on them. Thats exactly what I mean.

Israel demolishes over 100 homes (which have kitchens, bathrooms and yes, toilets) in a war crime (against the Geneva conventions) and FD tries desperately to spin it that the Israelis 'removes toilets'.

Shame.

Three days after Israel seized the Old City during the Six Day War, on the evening of June 10, 650 inhabitants of the Moroccan Quarter were told to vacate their homes on a few hours notice. Workers under the guard of soldiers then proceeded to demolish the quarter, consisting of 135 houses, the al-Buraq mosque, the Bou Medyan zaouia and other sites, with the exception of a mosque and a zaouia which were demolished two years later. According to Etan Ben Moshe, the officer in charge, several persons died following their refusal to leave their homes; one woman from the quarter who did not hear the calls to vacate was buried beneath the rubble, her body found the next morning under the ruins of her home.[6][8] In the following days all of the Palestinian Arab inhabitants of the Jewish Quarter were also evicted.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccan_Quarter

War crime is a war crime.

Cheers,
Shafique

The real shame of course is that so many are deafening silent about "incidents" like Hama

The Hama massacre (Arabic: مجزرة حماة‎) occurred in February 1982, when the Syrian army bombarded the town of Hama in order to quell a revolt by the Muslim Brotherhood. An estimated 17,000 to 40,000 people were killed, including about 1,000 soldiers,[1] and large parts of the old city were destroyed. The attack has been described as possibly being "the single deadliest act by any Arab government against its own people in the modern Middle East

In this destruction alone a third to a half of casualties fell compared to the IPC.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Another prime example. Israel removes toilets from the Western Wall and its presented as one the worst war crimes ever. Christians in Iraq, and many other Arab countries are prosecuted by Muslims, no nobody gives an iota. Leave alone all the churches and other holy places that are destroyed by Muslim conquerers in order to build mosques on them. Thats exactly what I mean.

Extremley IGNORANT comment..! You talk with full confidence as if you're aware of every bit of our Eastern societies.
You have no right to call those terrorists Muslims, they're NOT Muslims, the main Muslim clergy already declared it million times those terrorists are NON-Muslims. There are many idiots out there calling themselves smart, but they're idiots, for instance yourself! Those terrorists are targeting Muslims more than Christians in Iraq. Plenty of innocent Muslim Iraqis are slaughtered by those terrorist, I don't see that caught your attention??

Iraqi Muslims and in the neigbhouring countries have always expressed their support to the native Christians of Iraq. Even Tariq Aziz, the Christian minister in the Baathite regime of Saddam got an exception from execution just because he's a Christian as per the official statement of the Iraqi authorities.

FYI, in the Islamic Hadith, prophet Mohammad stated that if anyone attacked/killed a "dhimmi" (Christians/Jews who live in a Muslim society or state) will never go to heaven, which makes him rejected by God and is not considered a Muslim anymore.

Its a waste of time debating this with you anyways.

The Koran is quite clear that all Muslims go to heaven and the Koran also says those who kill non-believers by fighting for Allah will be granted instant access to Paradise.

event horizon wrote:The Koran is quite clear that all Muslims go to heaven and the Koran also says those who kill non-believers by fighting for Allah will be granted instant access to Paradise.

What's even more clear is that you're dumb and ignorant. Quran is NOT to be translated so randomly as there is something called TAFSEER (translations) for the verses.

You refuse to read the translation of the Quran, and simply just chose to judge so randomly.
I don't need to explain anything to you. If you're concerned go read urself.

MOREOVER ...

Christianity (the mutated Western version) has the most brutal record in history, do u dare to debate this fact?? It's time you give up the Abrahamic religion and go whorship Zeus or Jupiter or whatever idol that suits you.

shafique wrote:You have some sympathy for a war crime?

Having your home demolished and bannished from the area by the military occupier is a war crime.

As for whether you think the war crime is justified - that is for you. We should look to see what the law says though - as there will always be people who support criminals. We should at least be able to agree on what the law says an occupying power can and can't do to the homes of those living in the land they occupy militarily.

I'm glad though, that you don't deny that the annexations are illegal. It is indeed as illegal as other illegal stealings of land by others.

Cheers,
Shafique

43 , 60 years..., legal, illegal....justified, unjustified, UN, ..........who cares..... you can debate all you want ....done deal ...it ll stay like that , and anyways, before 100 years when oil runs dry, Arabs will go broke and won't be able to even buy a sling shot.

Flying Dutchman - I really can't believe you're now arguing that Israel's criminal actions in carrying out a war crime can somehow be excused by citing other war crimes!!

We could argue that Hitler killed more Jews in the 20th century than any Palestinian or Arab - but you'd rightly point out that this was beside the point.

But it speaks volumes that you sympathise with a war crime when carried out by a Jewish army of occupation and then try a blatant 'what about-ery' argument to divert attention away.

Shame on you.

And let us not overlook the fact that you started this thread with a graph from a blogger which you have so far failed spectacularly to provide the underlying figures for. That also speaks volumes.

Cheers,
Shafique

I really cant phantom why almost every post has to be a personal attack (its called trolling by the eway). In some way its flattering. If I wouldnt know better I would start to think certain posters are fascinated or obsesssed by/with me. I can dig a sling or two when done in humour, but this takes the discussion to a very low level.

More on topic, I think posters against the pie chart already proved that Israels actions cause fists in the air and foaming mouths, while remaining completely silent with Arab attrocities.

Hey, you started this thread with a graphic from a blogger and presented it as 'evidence' - and link it to the Israeli military occupation of Palestine.

I ask for the actual numbers and we get obfuscation (smoke and mirrors).

We get a lot of bluster and moaning, and yet in this thread the only person who is sympathising with a war crime is FD, and the shameful attempt at deflection is to talk about a Syrian atrocity committed in the 80s (a few months before the Israelis invaded Lebanon).

But at least we can agree that Israel's annexation (stealing land) is illegal - UN resolution 478 states so, international law states so etc. Eh and other fanbois should take note.

However, let me repeat - I do actually want to know what the underlying numbers and references are to the initial graph. The blogger you copied it from will have these - and I'm starting to think that your inability to provide them indicates that they won't stand up to scrutiny.

For the record, I don't condone any war crime - whether committed by Israel or not.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I do actually want to know what the underlying numbers and references are to the initial graph.

shafique wrote:the shameful attempt at deflection is to talk about a Syrian atrocity committed in the 80s

I take my words back about trolls. I believe trolls by definition are self aware.

So, I take it that you don't have those figures - only veiled ad hominem attacks.

Perhaps you shouldn't have admitted you sympathise with war criminals and tried to divert attention away - that's what I've called shameful.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:So, I take it that you don't have those figures

Read again.

I wonder whether we will see a reply to this post, without a personal attack. It seems it comes natural and cannot be helped.

shafique wrote:So, what are the actual numbers and where did the blogger get them from?

...just provide the actual numbers and references for the graph you've copied from Elder's blog.

Actual numbers and actual references for the graph. Not vague suppositions about what may be in the numbers.

Thanks.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Actual numbers and actual references for the graph. Not vague suppositions about what may be in the numbers.

Data is already provided in this thread.