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Since the IPC is discussed so much on this forum. Here is a bit of info to put everything in perspective:



More Palestinian civilians are killed by Arabs than Israeli's:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war

Sigh, what is it with Islamophobes and their inability to provide references?

The wiki link doesn't give us the figures that the blogger used for his graph - please give us the figures so we can check that they chart does reflect Palestinians killed since 1948.

So, how many Palestinians have been killed by Israelis since their Military Occupation began according to the stats? How many Palestinians have been killed by other Palestinians? (Please give us figures and the references for those figures)

The Wiki page gives a figure of over 30,000 Palestinians casualties of war. To that you'll have to add all the civilians etc that the Israeli Military Occupiers have killed since 1948. Then show us that Elder is right to insinuate that Palestinians have killed more than this number.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Sigh, what is it with Islamophobes

I really cant see anything Islamophobic in the OP. Very weird trolly remark!

shafique wrote:please give us the figures so we can check that they chart does reflect Palestinians killed since 1948.

The chart says Arabs, not Palestinians. I am sure those with reading and understanding skills get it.

shafique wrote:So, how many Palestinians have been killed by Israelis since their Military Occupation began according to the stats? How many Palestinians have been killed by other Palestinians? (Please give us figures and the references for those figures)

See the wiki link, which deals with Palestinian casualties as a whole and Palestinian civilians casualties especially.

shafique wrote: the Israeli Military Occupiers have killed since 1948.

Occupation since 1948? No more needs to said.

So, what are the actual numbers and where did the blogger get them from?

Islamphobes like you have a bad habit of inventing stats and quotes - you've been caught out at least once inventing statistics on this forum. (Just to be clear, you're not an Islamophobe because you make up stats, your Islamophobia is apparent from your posts on the subject of Muslims and Islam)

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now - just provide the actual numbers and references for the graph you've copied from Elder's blog.

Cheers,
Shafique

Actual Study Conducted - "Accuracy in Reporting of Israel/Palestine" - http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html

This study of ABC World News Tonight, CBS Evening News, and NBC Nightly News (we will call them, collectively, the networks) covers the first year of the current uprising (September 29, 2000 through September 28, 2001). This period was selected for study because it set the context within which all subsequent reporting on the conflict is viewed

^Relevance to this thread

we chose criteria that would be widely acknowledged as significant, conducive to statistical analysis, and immune to subjective interpretation.

^ Methodology

Examining this first year of news coverage, we found a significant disparity in the likelihood of a death being reported based on the ethnicity of the person killed.

This disparity was compounded by the fact that while the networks periodically reported on deaths more than once, through follow-up stories and mentions in later news reports, such repetitions were found to be more frequent in reporting on Israeli deaths than in reporting on Palestinian deaths. In fact, such repetitions caused the networks in some cases to report on Israeli deaths in greater rates than they had actually occurred. Palestinian deaths, on the other hand, were significantly under-reported by all three networks.

This study clearly indicates there is a disparity on deaths being reported based on ethnicity. Hence the disparity will also exist when finding out "How many of whom were killed by whom"

As graphics about the Israeli Military Occupation of Palestine go, this one is most telling




Now, let's see if FD ever provides the figures and references requested.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:So, what are the actual numbers and where did the blogger get them from?

Numbers are based on wars in Yemen, Jordan (black september), Lebanon and Iraq amongst others. The Iran/Iraq war, killings of Kurds e.d., were not even considered.

shafique wrote:Islamphobes like you

Whatever your opinion about me, I really cant see the purpose of insisting me being an Islamopohobe in this thread, except for being it a sign of extreme frustation (like your reply in the Iranian sports women thread, that was later on deleted. Just was just plain ridiculous and very very sad).

What are the numbers and where do they come from?

I'm really not that interested in your opinion (or Elder's for that matter) - just don't present a graph and just expect people to be impressed because it looks pretty. Show us the data.

Please don't guess, give us the numbers.

(I suspect that Elder may be confusing Iranians with Arabs... but until we see his numbers and sources, we won't know)

Cheers,
Shafique

Well even if the pie chart in the OP is true, although highly mislabled, what is the point ? Its comparing all the deaths in dozens of Arab countries due to different conflicts and wars vs a tiny piece of land with a very small population ? Its not even a valid comparison.

It would be relevant if it said number of people killed in Pal on Pal violence vs Israeli on Pal violence.

The chart is completely misleading as most of the propaganda is. Like saying the numbers of road fatalities in the UAE compared to that in the USA are tiny and insignificant. Hence the UAE has a better standard of driving and road safety.

Apples and oranges my friend.

Arabs killed by Israeli's would be around 50.000. The total of casualties of the IPC is 70.000-80.000. Considering the casualties because of conflicts that took place in the world since WW II, this number can almost be disregarding (although of course every life lost because of war is one too many). Even in the ME, the IPC is just a tiny conflict, despite the fact that many think peace between Israel and its neighbors is key to world peace.

As for Arabs killing Arabs, here is a start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_Civil_War

The Algerian Civil War was an armed conflict between the Algerian government and various Islamist rebel groups which began in 1991. It is estimated to have cost between 150,000 and 200,000 lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War

The war lasted from 1975 to 1990 and resulted in an estimated 130,000 to 250,000 civilian fatalities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Yemen_Civil_War

Causing aroung 125.000 casualties.

Only with these three wars Arabs killed by Israeli's amount to 10% of Arabs killed by Arabs (approxiomately).

Counting in Hama, Iraq, other Yemenite wars, inter-Palestinians killings and Black September would lead to the pie chart proportions mentioned in the OP.

-- Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:14 pm --

desertdudeshj wrote:Well even if the pie chart in the OP is true, although highly mislabled, what is the point ? Its comparing all the deaths in dozens of Arab countries due to different conflicts and wars vs a tiny piece of land with a very small population ? Its not even a valid comparison.

Hundreds of millions of Arabs have declared war on Israel...

desertdudeshj wrote:It would be relevant if it said number of people killed in Pal on Pal violence vs Israeli on Pal violence.

As mentioned in the OP, more Pali civilians have been killed by Arabs than Israeli's

Thanks - that's a start.

But aren't you just guessing what stats Elder used for his graph? Why don't you get the actual numbers he used and the reference?

Does he use a figure of 50,000 for the number of Palestinians killed by Israel?

Cheers,
Shafique

No, the OP says Arabs vs Arabs and Arabs vs IDF not pal vs pal and pal vs IDF. Again not a valid or current comparison. It would be valid if the dozens of Arab countries of the world were in a currently declared state of war with Israel with forces engaged in hostilities.

Again trying to mislead and saturate the issue. Maybe the IDF and its supporters need this kind of self delusional misinformation to justify their actions to themselves. If thats the case then go ahead by all means, just don't expect anyone else to fall for it.

If you want to discuss the issue bring up credible info on Palestenian on Palestenian violence fatalities vs IDF on Palestenian violence fatalities. Why are you dragging the entire Arab world into this ? Maybe drag in the over 1.5 Billion muslim population into this and saturate the figures even more.

Then the numbers become so small they are not even worth looking at right, can't understand what all the fuss is about in the first place. Oh those crazy Arabs and Muslims, just want to make a mountain out of a mole hill all the time !

desertdudeshj wrote:Well even if the pie chart in the OP is true, although highly mislabled, what is the point ? Its comparing all the deaths in dozens of Arab countries due to different conflicts and wars vs a tiny piece of land with a very small population ? Its not even a valid comparison.

I agree - but let's just check to see where the blogger pulled the figures from, and note the actual numbers killed.

(It would be informative to also compare the numbers of Arabs killed by non-Israeli and non-Arabs, for instance)

desertdudeshj wrote:It would be relevant if it said number of people killed in Pal on Pal violence vs Israeli on Pal violence.

Ah, but then the attempt at a smokescreen wouldn't be as effective - would it!

desertdudeshj wrote:The chart is completely misleading as most of the propaganda is. Like saying the numbers of road fatalities in the UAE compared to that in the USA are tiny and insignificant. Hence the UAE has a better standard of driving and road safety.

Apples and oranges my friend.

Well, the way it is being used is misleading - agreed. But I want to check whether it is fraudulent as well. The jury is still out.

Edit: DDS - you make a good point about the graph though - and it calls to question what the reaction would be if we had a pie chart showing the relative numbers of Jews killed by Europeans vs those killed by Arabs, say over the past 80 years. (Going back further, you'd hardly be able to see the proportion killed by Arabs!)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Does he use a figure of 50,000 for the number of Palestinians killed by Israel?

This reading problem has only been dealt with. But I see DDS had to improve that again:

desertdudeshj wrote:No, the OP says Arabs vs Arabs

desertdudeshj wrote:Oh those crazy Arabs and Muslims, just want to make a mountain out of a mole hill all the time !

Well those are not my words, but I agree with above statement so far, that Arabs and Muslims donot seem to care about other conflicts in the region at all! I think that the IPC is unique, because jews are involved. Illegitimate leaders are using it to gain some sort of sympathy from the populations. The Arab public will get more emotional and understanding when bashing jews, instead of criticizing Saudi's bombing Yemeni civilians. The last will have no effect at all.
And yes, compared to other conflict in the ME, the IPC is indeed a mole hill.

What reading problem?

Please provide the figures underlying the Graph - not your speculation about the numbers.

Data, not speculation, please.

You give the Lebanon Civil war as an example of Arab killing Arabs - and yet the link you gave has information about the 10s of thousands killed by Israel.

If you don't have the actual figures and just posted the graph because you liked the look of it, you can just admit it. It won't change our opinion of the depth of research you undertake too much.

Cheers,
Shafique

Now, B'tselem does provide official statistics for Palestinians and Israelis killed in recent decades.

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Index.asp

Palestinians killed by Israeli Military since 1987 = 7,686
of which 1594 were children.

One in five (20.7%) of those killed by the Israeli military were children!

Flying Dutchman wrote:
This reading problem has only been dealt with. But I see DDS had to improve that again:

desertdudeshj wrote:No, the OP says Arabs vs Arabs

Again misquote and half truth trickery from your side, when the actual quote was

desertdudeshj wrote:No, the OP says Arabs vs Arabs and Arabs vs IDF not pal vs pal and pal vs IDF

Maybe instead of accusations of not being able to comprehend the written word, you should try being honest for a change and not try to blend and bend everything to suit your agenda

Or maybe when your pie chart says Arabs killed by other Arabs since 1948 I didn't have my IDF tinted glasses on ?

desertdudeshj wrote:Oh those crazy Arabs and Muslims, just want to make a mountain out of a mole hill all the time !

Flying Dutchman wrote:Well those are not my words, but I agree with above statement so far, that Arabs and Muslims donot seem to care about other conflicts in the region at all! I think that the IPC is unique, because jews are involved. Illegitimate leaders are using it to gain some sort of sympathy from the populations. The Arab public will get more emotional and understanding when bashing jews, instead of criticizing Saudi's bombing Yemeni civilians. The last will have no effect at all.
And yes, compared to other conflict in the ME, the IPC is indeed a mole hill.

Again what about-ery. Look we are just a little more bad then those folks over there, so its unfair to call us evil. Focus man, focus. Like shaf said why don't we look at all the jews killed by Europeans, why is Israel even in the middle east according to that logic. It should be sending troops into the European heartland to take back their land, houses and property.

Nobody said the Arabs are saints decended down from heaven ( although many would like to believe so ) All sides have used this conflict to their own advantage. I'll even go as far as saying most of these Arab nation don't even give a damn about it and use it just as a bargaining chip. Not to say the other side doesn't either.

But at the end of the day the ground reality for what really is the IPC as you call it does not change. It is what it is. An illegal occupation with almost every international law and human right there is disregarded and broken.

Arguments like yours like I said are nothing but just feel good self justifications maybe helps them and you sleep better at night without a guilty conscience, who knows ? Fortunately world over abiet very slowly people are seeing for what the IPC really is, a gross injustice carrying on unchecked and with a free hand. These misleading facts and bits of misinformation are starting to loose their credibilty and not many are lapping them up as they used to.

As the saying goes less and less people are drinking the Koolaid

shafique wrote:Palestinians killed by Israeli Military since 1987 = 7,686
of which 1594 were children.

Which doesnt surprise me at all. Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah donot shy away from using women and children in terrorist attacks.
Only from 2000 on hundreds of children used in terrorist attacks were killed by the IDF

-- Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:46 pm --

desertdudeshj wrote:Look we are just a little more bad then those folks over there, so its unfair to call us evil.

I donot think Israel or the IDF is evil. Basicly they are defending their country, which so many want to de-legitimize. IDF soldiers might not be teddy bears, and if they do something wrong, they should be hold resposible and be punished. Just like any normal army.

desertdudeshj wrote:Like shaf said why don't we look at all the jews killed by Europeans

Everybody is very welcome to make their own pie chart, that can be discussed. If have seen a lot of ideas for it already in this thread. Very good!

desertdudeshj wrote:why is Israel even in the middle east according to that logic.

Israel is in the ME, because its the homeland of the indigenous jews

desertdudeshj wrote:It should be sending troops into the European heartland to take back their land, houses and property.

They have been compensated. Now, they are asking for compensation from the Arab countires.

desertdudeshj wrote:But at the end of the day the ground reality for what really is the IPC as you call it does not change. It is what it is. An illegal occupation with almost every international law

Each and every interpretation of international law should specify who was the legal sovereign over the disputed territories before Israel conquered it in a defensive war. Until they cant, Israels presence there is legal!

Flying Dutchman wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Look we are just a little more bad then those folks over there, so its unfair to call us evil.

I donot think Israel or the IDF is evil. Basicly they are defending their country, which so many want to de-legitimize. IDF soldiers might not be teddy bears, and if they do something wrong, they should be hold resposible and be punished. Just like any normal army.

Nobody is de-legitimizing Israel other that Israel itself. The country they had in 1948 is was much smaller than today. I wonder how borders creep automatically ?

Flying Dutchman wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:why is Israel even in the middle east according to that logic.

Israel is in the ME, because its the homeland of the indigenous jews

Well the Jews lay claim to land from the nile to the euphrates as thier indigenous homeland. Maybe everybody should just vacate the middle east.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:It should be sending troops into the European heartland to take back their land, houses and property.

They have been compensated. Now, they are asking for compensation from the Arab countires.

Compensation for what ? Stealing land. Like I said maybe the whole middle east should vacate and pay them compesation for squatting for a few 1000 years

Flying Dutchman wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:But at the end of the day the ground reality for what really is the IPC as you call it does not change. It is what it is. An illegal occupation with almost every international law

Each and every interpretation of international law should specify who was the legal sovereign over the disputed territories before Israel conquered it in a defensive war. Until they cant, Israels presence there is legal!

It does and its been called an illegal occupation. Conquered it in a defensive war, now thats a new one. Usually it called annexation or illegal occupation. But full points for brillaint spin mate.

And we still wait to read the actual numbers and source for those numbers in the original pie chart.

It is truly amazing how quickly a smoke and mirrors attempt can be made to vanish by simply asking for evidence!

(FD is reverting to type and blaming the victims when presented with numbers of children killed under the Israeli Military Occupation of Palestine!)

Cheers,
Shafique

desertdudeshj wrote:Nobody is de-legitimizing Israel other that Israel itself. The country they had in 1948 is was much smaller than today.

Calling Israeli's living within the 1948 armictice lines settlers is clearly de-legitimizing Israel. Comparing the situation between Israel and the Palestinians with the holocaust is much, much worse!

Flying Dutchman wrote:Well the Jews lay claim to land from the nile to the euphrates as thier indigenous homeland. Maybe everybody should just vacate the middle east.

Really? Perhaps some religeous nutters do, but I am very sure that a vast majority doesnt.

desertdudeshj wrote:Compensation for what ? Stealing land.

Due to the 1948 war of independence close to a million jews were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries.

desertdudeshj wrote: Conquered it in a defensive war, now thats a new one.

Huh? Calling the 6-day war a defensive war from Israels perspective is new?

desertdudeshj wrote: But full points for brillaint spin mate.

Instead of issueing another personal attack, reference to a legal sovereign of the disputed territories before Israel conquered it should be given for sake of argument.

-- Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:24 pm --

shafique wrote:(FD is reverting to type and blaming the victims when presented with numbers of children killed under the Israeli Military Occupation of Palestine!)

It is well known how this works. If Palestinians blow themselves up in Israeli busses, restaurants and weddings it is called the only form of resistance available for the Palestinians. When Israel prevents such attacks and kills the terrorist, the "victims" are blamed.

Personally I will agree to those numbers in the pie chart if ever show. I guess it wouldn't be too far of to think Arabs have killed more Arabs since 1948. But by Arabs I mean just that Arabs and the all the countries included. If you just take Saddams Iraq he killed millions of his people during his regime i.e : Arab killing Arabs.

But like I said what the point of making that comparison in regards to the IPC conflicts ??? Although the numbers might not be untrue ( will still wait for authentication though ) but the pie chart is deceivingly conceived to play on peoples ignorance and hoping that when they see the word Arab they will automactically relate it to the word Palestenian. Even more deceptive is the Arabs killed by the IDF again the same trickery is being tried. To make the word Arab synonmous with the word Palestenian.

Again a perfect example of presenting facts skewered and misrepresented to fit into the propaganda. The facts maybe correct but seriously out of context.

It's clearly an attempt at a smokescreen, 'what about-ery' defence.

50,000 Palestinians killed according to FD's estimate is trying to be minimised (at best) or excused (at worst). Indeed, the fact FD blames the victims when the body count of children killed by the Israeli military shows up the fact that the body count isn't so important - but rather the nationality of those doing the killing.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Nobody is de-legitimizing Israel other that Israel itself. The country they had in 1948 is was much smaller than today.

Calling Israeli's living within the 1948 armictice lines settlers is clearly de-legitimizing Israel. Comparing the situation between Israel and the Palestinians with the holocaust is much, much worse!

So calling a countries inhabitants to live within their countries borders ( Which they themselves and the world agreed to ) is deligtimizing them, thats another new one. Like I said maybe the Arabs should just vacate the middle east, after all at somepoint in time jew might have lived there making it their indgenous homeland.

Then I wonder what all the fuss about illegal immigration worldwide is all about. Surely you are delegitimizing Morrocans living in Holland when you call for them to be deported then

Flying Dutchman wrote:Well the Jews lay claim to land from the nile to the euphrates as thier indigenous homeland. Maybe everybody should just vacate the middle east.

Really? Perhaps some religeous nutters do, but I am very sure that a vast majority doesnt.[/quote]

I pretty sure most don't. My word against yours, simple

Flying Dutchman wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Compensation for what ? Stealing land.

Due to the 1948 war of independence close to a million jews were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries.

Any crediblefacts to back that up ? That millions of Jews were ethinically cleansed from Arab countries as a direct result of the 1948 war.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote: Conquered it in a defensive war, now thats a new one.

Huh? Calling the 6-day war a defensive war from Israels perspective is new?

A defensive was is just that, defensive, not one that you start and annex territory in.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote: But full points for brillaint spin mate.

Instead of issueing another personal attack, reference to a legal sovereign of the disputed territories before Israel conquered it should be given for sake of argument.

I'm not going to even bother with this as it would take me all day most probally more to post the many links from the UN to the International court of justice for this one. Covering almost everything from the the illegal occupation, apartheid wall, operation cast lead, flotilla raid etc etc etc etc. Can be turned into a whole book on just this subject, besides all this has nothing to OP. The misleading pie chart

desertdudeshj wrote:Personally I will agree to those numbers in the pie chart if ever show.

Even only with the three civil wars in Arab countries, Arab casualties because of IDF fire is around 10% compared to Arabs killed by Arabs. Consider Saddam, Black September, Hama and more and the pie chart is correct.

desertdudeshj wrote:I guess it wouldn't be too far of to think Arabs have killed more Arabs since 1948.

a gross understatement

desertdudeshj wrote:But like I said what the point of making that comparison in regards to the IPC conflicts ???

Israel should be judged as the rest of the world, or even the ME, is judged. Compared to that the IPC is a very small conflict, with only a relatively few casualties over a relative small piece of land. I still reminder a fellow countryman coming back from a visit to Israel. He was amazed that the disputed territories only compromise of aorund 10% of the Netherlands. Because of its small size, the IPC is not threatening to world or ME peace. Thats what the hypocritical Arabs and others make out of it, without any real grounds.

desertdudeshj wrote: hoping that when they see the word Arab they will automactically relate it to the word Palestenian.

This is not true, I am just hoping people can read.

desertdudeshj wrote: Even more deceptive is the Arabs killed by the IDF again the same trickery is being tried. To make the word Arab synonmous with the word Palestenian.

What? I clearly want to state that the words Arab and Palestinian are not the same. Although every Palestinian is Arab (according to the PLO), not every Arab is Palestinian. I hope this clarifies it.

-- Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:50 pm --

shafique wrote:50,000 Palestinians killed according to FD's estimate

Read again.

-- Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:59 pm --

desertdudeshj wrote:So calling a countries inhabitants to live within their countries borders ( Which they themselves and the world agreed to ) is deligtimizing them, thats another new one.

Calling local Arab citizens in the UAE "settlers", would also be new to me.

desertdudeshj wrote:Then I wonder what all the fuss about illegal immigration worldwide is all about. Surely you are delegitimizing Morrocans living in Holland when you call for them to be deported then

I am not sure about this one, but I think Moroccan immigration into Holland is compared to Jews living in Israel. Cannot compare apples with bikes.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Due to the 1948 war of independence close to a million jews were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries.

desertdudeshj wrote:Any crediblefacts to back that up ? That millions of Jews were ethinically cleansed from Arab countries as a direct result of the 1948 war.

Read again.

desertdudeshj wrote:A defensive was is just that, defensive, not one that you start and annex territory in.

I still cannot believe somebody didnt hear the argument before that the 6-day war was a defensive war. Before Israel started with hostilities it received enemy fire from Jordan, Syria and Egypt. Anyways there is a thread already about the 6-way war of you wish to discuss it.

desertdudeshj wrote: I'm not going to even bother with this as it would take me all day most probally more to post the many links from the UN to the International court of justice for this one. Covering almost everything from the the illegal occupation, apartheid wall, operation cast lead, flotilla raid etc etc etc etc. Can be turned into a whole book on just this subject, besides all this has nothing to OP. The misleading pie chart

Many threads on DF already discussed these issues.

Seriously FD I dunno wheter to cry or laugh at your post when you say things like

Israel should be judged as the rest of the world, or even the ME, is judged. Compared to that the IPC is a very small conflict,with only a relatively few casualties over a relative small piece of land

How can you even say that with such equanimity. What are you trying to do or justify here ? That thousands of people killed is really inconsequential ? Or that other brutal regimes in the regions with much much bigger populations have also wreaked havoc so its all fair play ?

Again this whole hoo ha by you is nothing but a way to clear your own guilty conscience or of the IDF supporters by making irrelevant comparisions to say the very least. Go and actually re read what you have written. I'm am really sorry to say and I know this does sound insulting but I have no other words to describe it other than pathetic at the very least.

Oh only a few thousand died, I don't see the big deal is ? Seriously mate, how callous can you be ?

^FD has a point though - we should indeed be concerned about other injustices that are being carried out (current and historic).

Unfortunately the strawman he's unsuccessfully trying to build is that those opposed to Israel's injustices (eg stealing land and killing tens of thousands, including thousands of children) somehow aren't also opposed to other injustices (such as Europeans killing Jews, Gypsies; Africans killing each other etc)

But also note that there's a lot of heat, but not much light.

I'm still waiting to read the actual numbers underlying the OP pie chart and the references for these numbers. Vague speculation about what wars were included isn't good enough.

Cheers,
Shafique

desertdudeshj wrote:Seriously FD I dunno wheter to cry or laugh at your post when you say things like

Israel should be judged as the rest of the world, or even the ME, is judged. Compared to that the IPC is a very small conflict,with only a relatively few casualties over a relative small piece of land

Yes, compared to other conflicts in the ME, the IPC is relatively small. You can resort to personal attacks again, but thats how it is. And no, I am not trying to downplay casualties. But, as I stated before, seeing the IPC as theatening to world peace only stems from believing in illogical hatred.

Strawman.

The Israeli Military Occupation has lasted over 60 years and has caused misery to generations - both within historic Palestine and neighbouring countries - Lebanon was subject to two wars, Syria still has land occupied and Israel has bombed at least two other countries and murdered others in other countries.

Whilst you may be right to view the victims of Israeli crimes as numerically fewer than say those killed by Hitler and Pol Pot or Saddam or Stalin, no court of law buys the argument from a criminal that goes:

"Yes, I broke the law - but look over there, those guys are also criminals, why are you coming after me"

10/10 for effort FD - lower score for credibility.

(I take it you haven't managed to get the requested figures and just thought the graph looked pretty and ties in with what you think happened).

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:The Israeli Military Occupation has lasted over 60 years

This is again not true. I assume you are refering to Israels presence in the disputed terrotories, which is from 1967 until present (2010, almost 2011).

shafique wrote:historic Palestine

Historic Palestine comprimises also a large part of Jordan. But somehow I donot think this remark was made to show that Jordan is Palestine, but for another reason.

shafique wrote:"Yes, I broke the law - but look over there, those guys are also criminals, why are you coming after me"

Which isnot the argument at all. But a quote from me in this thread believing the above would be appreciated.

shafique wrote:10/10 for effort FD - lower score for credibility.

What is it with moderators on DF, who think that constantly personaly attack someone actually helps them?