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Sorry about the bad cut and paste job. It doesn't matter which graph you look at, they are all from the same source and all show the same data. You can cross check all of them.

Since we don't have a exact time of the poles being clipped but we do have time of impact and time scaled data. But from know locations of the pole it has to be within the last second/s or even miliseconds if traveling at the speeds stated in the FDR data.

Also to give a visual repesentaion look at this



Skip forward to 8.30 and ignore everything before it even mute the sound if you want. This is the official animation as presented by John Farmer at the 9/11 commision taken from C Span footage. But feel free to ignore it you think its duboius because it is part of a "conspiracy" documentery.

Now you can make your deductions and come to your own conclusions. If you feel the data is sufficient to prove that after a hopless pilot (well actually calling him a pilot will be a disgrace to aviators around the world ) executed a perfect 300 knot 330 degree downward spiral in around 5 seconds then accelerated to over 500 knots within a couple of seconds while clipping some poles and then leveled to with feet if not inches above ground level and smashed at ground level without leaving any trail of damage behind save for the poles which fell within feet of their bases and didn't even damage the grass they fell on after being impacted at atleast 300 knots. Then your most entitled to your opinion.

I however am not willing to make that leap of faith just yet.

desertdudeshj wrote:Since we don't have a exact time of the poles being clipped but we do have time of impact and time scaled data. But from know locations of the pole it has to be within the last second/s or even miliseconds if traveling at the speeds stated in the FDR data.

I think we can safely conclude that any NTSB presented thus far, does not even remotely support the claim that according to NTSB data flight 77 flew too high over the light poles without touching them.
Anyways, NTSB data show conclusively that flight 77 crashed into the pentagon.

desertdudeshj wrote: If you feel the data is sufficient to prove that after a hopless pilot (well actually calling him a pilot will be a disgrace to aviators around the world ) executed a perfect 300 knot 330 degree downward spiral

More inconsistencies:

desertdudeshj wrote:This is where Ace pilot hanjour starts his victory lap, It takes him around five and a half second to complete a 220 degree downward spiral

Also why did'nt it fly into the first chance he had instead he flew by it, did a 270 degree, diving turn

DDS - Thanks - am reviewing but you make some valid points.

The ability of this pilot seems incredible. Terrorists rarely have such skill from what I have seen - suicide bombers load themselves up and push the button - not a huge amount of skill involved. That again is another thing I find strange about the official 911 story as I have mentioned before. How does this terror threat emerge from nowhere or atleast without anything taking place before where this level of experience, training and knowledge was required to pull it off. Before 911 the terrorists hardly mustered anything of significance up and were always failing in their attempts to carry out large scale bombing. Suddenly out of nowhere they comandeer 4 aircraft over US airspace they -

- crash into buildings that later collapse in a demolition manner even ones where a plane has not hit
- perform some stunts that anyone would be proud of
- managae to outwit all of US intelligence before the even
- manage to NORAD on the day

All in all absolutely amazing and unbelievable.

I would love for the US government to release some pictures so we can see Hani's incredible flying ability for ourself. Does anyone know why the US government won't release even a few of the pictures of the plane hitting the pentago? Apart from the "its classified" argument.

JoeTGF wrote:DDS - Thanks - am reviewing but you make some valid points.

The ability of this pilot seems incredible. Terrorists rarely have such skill from what I have seen - suicide bombers load themselves up and push the button - not a huge amount of skill involved. That again is another thing I find strange about the official 911 story as I have mentioned before. How does this terror threat emerge from nowhere or atleast without anything taking place before where this level of experience, training and knowledge was required to pull it off. Before 911 the terrorists hardly mustered anything of significance up and were always failing in their attempts to carry out large scale bombing. Suddenly out of nowhere they comandeer 4 aircraft over US airspace they -

- crash into buildings that later collapse in a demolition manner even ones where a plane has not hit
- perform some stunts that anyone would be proud of
- managae to outwit all of US intelligence before the even
- manage to NORAD on the day

All in all absolutely amazing and unbelievable.

I would love for the US government to release some pictures so we can see Hani's incredible flying ability for ourself. Does anyone know why the US government won't release even a few of the pictures of the plane hitting the pentago? Apart from the "its classified" argument.

Emotions and hunges cant be discredited. The 9/11 truth seekers fail miserable when it comes to hard evidence however. They throw in random clips and documents and are constantly inconsistent. When checking the claimed real evidence, its fraud or lies. After nine years, not one piece of hard evidence, just hunges and feelings. Not one credible alternative!

Flying Dutchman wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Since we don't have a exact time of the poles being clipped but we do have time of impact and time scaled data. But from know locations of the pole it has to be within the last second/s or even miliseconds if traveling at the speeds stated in the FDR data.

I think we can safely conclude that any NTSB presented thus far, does not even remotely support the claim that according to NTSB data flight 77 flew too high over the light poles without touching them.
Anyways, NTSB data show conclusively that flight 77 crashed into the pentagon.

Like I said if your willing to make that leap of faith your more than welcome to.

Flying Dutchman wrote:More inconsistencies:

desertdudeshj wrote:This is where Ace pilot hanjour starts his victory lap, It takes him around five and a half second to complete a 220 degree downward spiral

Also why did'nt it fly into the first chance he had instead he flew by it, did a 270 degree, diving turn

Agreed inconsitencies because I was recalling stuff from the top of my head from stuff I had reviewed years ago. Thanks to you now its fresh in my mind again.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Emotions and hunges cant be discredited. The 9/11 truth seekers fail miserable when it comes to hard evidence however. They throw in random clips and documents and are constantly inconsistent. When checking the claimed real evidence, its fraud or lies. After nine years, not one piece of hard evidence, just hunges and feelings. Not one credible alternative!

The door swings both ways. After nine years not a single proper investigation by the govt of the worlds biggest crime scenes or credible hard evidence from them. There is more conjecture from the govt side than there is from the so called "conspiracy theorist"

FD - Credible evidence like a picture of something other than flight 77 hitting the pentago? Hard for me anyone to provide pictures of something else hitting the pentagon when the government took them all and has refused to disclose them. If someone went this length to cover up 911 than they should probably hide the pictures - if its in all in our minds why don't they just publish them and put us out of our misery. What do you think FD - why won't they release the pictures???

JoeTGF wrote:What do you think FD - why won't they release the pictures???

What pictures or tapes havent been released? More specific, which FOIA was denied for this?

Well the pentagon is surrounded by a huge number of surveilance cameras due to its importance - the only footage I have seen of the crash is partially obstructed from a security booth area outside the pentagon which shows "something" heading toward it horizontally for 1-2 secs and than boom. Would you not think that there are considerably more videos and pictures of the supposed plane coming in to hit the pentagon? This is just the pentagon - think the CIA also confiscated pictures from business's around the pentagon - all I have seen is that one video. If you have any others FD I would love to see them.

For now I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I will consider the statement that the US government is withholding pictures/tapes from the Pentagon as a hunge. although you donot have any evidence for it so far.

MCINTYRE (on camera): These pictures are the first to be made public, but they are not the only images of the plane hitting the Pentagon. Sources tell CNN that the FBI on September 11th confiscated a nearby hotel's security camera videotape, which also captured the attack. So far, the Justice Department has refused to release that videotape

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... sb.00.html



There were and still are Virginia Dept of Transpotation cameras



Check for yourself
http://www.trafficland.com/city/WAS2/index.html

And click on I-395 @ Washington Blvd cam, and if having trouble finding it zoom into the pentagon on the given google map and click on the two camera nearests to the pentagon.

Cannot find the FOAI request ID anywhere that is mentioned on the scan!

Fine disregard it, but maybe check with the person who filed it first maybe he has better insight on this. A Mr Scott A Hodes http://www.infoprivacylaw.com/

What about camera footage ?

VDOT cameras with clear view of the pentagon, where is the footage from them, Plus from the citgo gas station and the Sheraton. What about the ring of cameras on the outter perimeter of the pentagon. And think it also safe to assume the pentagon has CCTV cameras on the inside aswell, still nothing.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... tagon.html

Confisticated by the FBI, released onfly after a law suit.



So from all that available footage the govt releases just 5 frames which show almost nothing.

Flying Dutchman wrote:For now I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I will consider the statement that the US government is withholding pictures/tapes from the Pentagon as a hunge. although you donot have any evidence for it so far.

Thanks FD.

In terms of evidence I don't know what you need but you might want to consider -
- that the Pentagon is probably one of the most securely guarded buildings in the world with multiple (some say over 100) video camera's surrounding it for its security
- that it has just experienced the biggest terrorist attack in history from a plane crashing into it
- that people like me/dds and many many other people believe that its a setup and not flight 77

Why would they not release something which shows flight 77 (wings and all) hitting the damn building?? Are they saying they don't have a single good video of the plane? Seriously?
Are they saying that its a security risk and therefore classified? Why would it be?

Sometimes these home truths are stronger than any technical analysis of whether a plane could have hit a lampost, etc, etc. In terms of the easy home truths on the pentagon which is not technical here are some I think are very valid -

1. The pilot had to make some seriously incredible manoevres to pull it off - pure steady horizontal flying at low altitude and incredible speeds after a steep descent so not to even damage the surrounding lawn. Extremely difficult probably for the best of pilots let alone our Hani I would think.

2. I would have expected to see a large part of the plane and its compenents - the pictures showed really small peices of a possibly an aircraft - no luggage, no bodies, nada. All other plane crashes in history have never left a footprint like the one at the pentagon - odd no?

3. The first policeman at the scene (I think DDS posted a youtube clip of his media statement) stated that it did not look like an airline crash until he was told that it was flight 77 - presumably by the CIA

4. Eyewitness's said they saw a white plane flying at low altitude towards the pentagon - AA is not white.

5. Oh yes - not one clear video or picture showing a plane crashing into the pentagon or flying over a motorway on its official flight path. Not one. Even video's taken by other business's that would have captured it were confiscated.

I don't need to know what happened to flight 77 or have a credible alternative to know that the official line smells fishy.

JoeTGF wrote:The pilot had to make some seriously incredible manoevres to pull it off - pure steady horizontal flying at low altitude and incredible speeds after a steep descent so not to even damage the surrounding lawn. Extremely difficult probably for the best of pilots let alone our Hani I would think.

The fact that the pilot had to do an extra curve before crashing into the Pentagon shows that he indeed was inexperienced. He came in way too high, needed to loose altitude. Not standard I am sure and very uncomfortable for the passengers.
Not completely comparable of course, but I have been sitting in the back of Cessna a few times, when a KLM pilot in training did some steep curves while loosing altitude and than land. I fully realize a Cessna is not a 757, but still. The way I understand it, what the pilot did was not how you usually fly a commercial airline, but not extraoridinary, especially with the help of modern equipment and aids in 757s.

Thats fine FD.
We can say either (a) yes he could have done it (b) nope its not likely.
But the other stuff combined with this makes it more compelling that he didn't do it don't you think?
Not one picture buddy - not one - I want to see 1 picture of an AA plane smashing into the pentagon - there should be one out there right? Better yet a nice video.

Once the US government gives me that video or picture along with showing me just one case of a large tower collapsing to dust in a demolition style manner after a few hours of burning I will accept that this theory is complete pooh. Right now the official story is "take our word for it - it was terrorists".

JoeTGF wrote:But the other stuff combined with this makes it more compelling that he didn't do it don't you think?

No not at all.

There are more plane crashes in urban areas without any footage.

Before this thread I didnot have a of shadow of doubt that 9/11 was done by Islamic terrorsts. Now I am absolutely 100% sure.

desertdudeshj wrote:Also the final maneuver by Hani Hanjour, he has the pentagon in his cross hairs, anyone wanting to hit it, will drive down straight into it but what does Hani do ? He starts doing a decending loop?

According to NTSB data he was at 7000 feet. He needed to loose altitude hence the decending loop.

desertdudeshj wrote:Not to mention he already had a chance to smash into the opposite end of the pentagon but he choose to do a fly by

Would do you mean by that, the opposite end? He did a 330 degree (as you claim) before the Pentagon. He also didn’t fly over:

desertdudeshj wrote:And not to mention our pilot Hanjour was so kind he flew past Rummys office on the other side

This is completely not supported by NTSB data.

desertdudeshj wrote:Shows in the last few seconds rapid decent from almost 5000ft to 0ft with in a matter of seconds

According to NTSB data his final decent from 5000 took about 1,5 minutes.

desertdudeshj wrote:It takes him around five and a half second to complete a 220 degree downward spiral

The decending spiral took him around two minutes according to NTSB data.

desertdudeshj wrote:Care to take a guess at how much G load that would create let alone if an air frame of a 757 could handle such a thing

I am just guessing here based on the NTSB graphs, but I would say 1 - 1,5G, perhaps a bit less, perhaps a bit more. A 757 can for sure handel 2G, 757s are reported that they could withstand up to 4G.

desertdudeshj wrote:Professional pilots with 1000's of hours of flying the planes supposedly used in the attacks say it is physically impossible for the planes to do what they have said to have done (http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org)

Administrators of that site have shown having no problems forging government document. Can you specify for which airliners they fly?

Icenic wrote:I've also spoken with many pilots (my step-mother used to be a cabin manager/flight attendant) and they have told me that it is impossible for anyone with basic training to pull a stunt like that, and that even they themselves could never do it. FD are you a pilot?

Icenic, for which airliners do the pilots fly that you have spoken to who claim they cannot pull off what Hani did?

Listen Bro, I don't think its a good time to be bickering in light of the recent tragic news, not to mention disrespectfull. Lets just call it off for a few days atleast.

Peace

Yes, I'm curious about these pilots and flight attendants who are so sure that Hani couldn't have crashed as he did into the Pentagon. Are flight attendants technically trained to know the ins and outs of how to pilot a plane? I have friends who are flight attendants and they have not been trained like that.

Truther: There are experts, pilots and flight attendants, who say Hani couldn't have pulled that off.
Witness: But I saw the plane crash into the Pentagon.
Truther: No way, Hani wasn't skilled enough.
Witness: But I saw the plane crash into the Pentagon.
Truther: Wake up and see the truth! Who do you work for?

piltos for911truth is a scam.
What does worry me, is that if Icenic spoke the truth, and there are indeed pilots that claim that they cannot do what Hani did, I for sure want to know for which airliners the fly!

Flying Dutchman wrote:piltos for911truth is a scam.
What does worry me, is that if Icenic spoke the truth, and there are indeed pilots that claim that they cannot do what Hani did, I for sure want to know for which airliners the fly!

Well all the pilots I've spoken to work for Etihad, but they've worked with many other airlines before. They told me that to successfully conduct that maneuver, a pilot would need at least excessive virtual training, which I doubt is impossible for Hani to have gone through, but they were pretty confident that it is impossible for any average pilot to pull that off.

Icenic wrote:

Flying Dutchman wrote:piltos for911truth is a scam.
What does worry me, is that if Icenic spoke the truth, and there are indeed pilots that claim that they cannot do what Hani did, I for sure want to know for which airliners the fly!

Well all the pilots I've spoken to work for Etihad.

Thanks!

Well there you have it, those Etihad pilots say it is impossible for Hani to pull it off so Hani didn't do it. Those witnesses who saw the plan fly into the Pentagon are liars, and the AA wreckage and DNA of the people in the plane were definitely planted by elves. You'd make a great police officer or detective Icenic!

kanelli wrote:Well there you have it, those Etihad pilots say it is impossible for Hani to pull it off so Hani didn't do it. Those witnesses who saw the plan fly into the Pentagon are liars, and the AA wreckage and DNA of the people in the plane were definitely planted by elves. You'd make a great police officer or detective Icenic!

Why do you fail to be respectful in many of your posts? I'm simply stating what the pilots said to me, and only doing so because FD asked. I didn't even present my opinion except to say that it was not impossible for Hani to have gotten excessive simulation training. Also, if I state that Hani Hanjour couldn't have performed that maneuver, it doesn't mean that I don't think a plane hit the pentagon, rather that a different plane did. So please stop making that link everytime Hani Hanjour's skills are brought up.

Ok, a "different" plane hit the pentagon, but it still had American Airlines markings, was a 757, and had the DNA of all the passengers...

Why don't believe flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon if the government was able to fly the two commercial airliners in the WTC?

Couldn't they have just replicated the same thing for the Pentagon crash?

And it looks like my prediction of the cruise missile hitting the Pentagon issue has turned out to have come true.