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Am I supposed to see something in that hotel picture?

The Pentagon had a 96' wide hole punched through the first story of its wall. I can't see any hole in the hotel pic, but comparing a hotel wall to the Pentagon's is meaningless in any event.

not punch through with momentum and will only exploded once it has breached the bunker and not explode on impact leaving the very small entrance hole while ripping everything inside. Thats just one example.

So the cruise missile hit the Pentagon's wall on its side?

Your explanation doesn't cover how a cruise missile was able to inflict that type of damage in the wall of the Pentagon nor why you chose to post a misleading picture of the hole left in the wall.

but still the fan blades of those are made of titanium ( very hard to melt or disintregrated and made to withstand anything from bird strikes to very large chunks of ice ) and there are two engines on a 757 nothing but a that survived ?

Argument from silence. You're assuming that was all that was left because those are the only photos released. A third photo of another engine component wasn't shown until the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui.

Also the entire amount of werckage found at the pentagon and be put on the back of a small pick up ? No luggage pieces, no seats, landing gear other that few twisted but relatively small and unchared supposed pieces of the fuselage and one compressor or turbine and maybe a combustion outer case.

Who ever told you that was wrong. A drivers license, wedding ring, burnt luggage tag and the remains of the passengers on the plane identified through dna testing were all recovered from the wreckage.

http://onlineathens.com/stories/091104/ ... 1030.shtml

So you can't see a major part of the out wall missing ? And the surrounding damage to the facade of the building ? Also keep in mind that pic was not taken immediately after the strike but after clean up

event horizon wrote:
So the cruise missile hit the Pentagon's wall on its side?

Your explanation doesn't cover how a cruise missile was able to inflict that type of damage in the wall of the Pentagon nor why you chose to post a misleading picture of the hole left in the wall.

Misleading how, the example I gave was to show the missle can be adjusted to type of target it is meant to strike. Not that it was a that one.

event horizon wrote:

but still the fan blades of those are made of titanium ( very hard to melt or disintregrated and made to withstand anything from bird strikes to very large chunks of ice ) and there are two engines on a 757 nothing but a that survived ?

Argument from silence. You're assuming that was all that was left because those are the only photos released. A third photo of another engine component wasn't shown until the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui.

So its very safe to assume that there is evidence being withheld by the govt, maybe like the footage from many external and internal CCTV cameras located around the pentagon. Also private CCTV footage confisticated from external sources.

Also safe to assume that only evidence that coroborates their story is released, why not release all the footage and settle this issue forever ? Instead of the 5 frames with the wrong time stamp

event horizon wrote:

Also the entire amount of werckage found at the pentagon and be put on the back of a small pick up ? No luggage pieces, no seats, landing gear other that few twisted but relatively small and unchared supposed pieces of the fuselage and one compressor or turbine and maybe a combustion outer case.

Who ever told you that was wrong. A drivers license, wedding ring, burnt luggage tag and the remains of the passengers on the plane identified through dna testing were all recovered from the wreckage.

Also confirming that from tonnes of plane and passenger luggage wreckage you have just enough to fill a small pickup and not bigger than one person to pickup. More plane debri was found from the WTC's attacks which was spread over a huge area and in a busy city

Here is an official animation provided by the NTSB from the data recovered from the black box.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-Q8nSEe ... r_embedded

First of all it does not follow the official flight path, secondly the plane is over 200 ft and when its has supposed to have hit the first light poles, in this case the first poles have to be over 200 ft high for the plane to have clipped them

The data stream stops about one second from impact and at the point it is at 180 feet and the last pole to be almost 200 ft tall for them to be clipped. Not to mention that the pane wasn't even directly over them.

And that within miliseconds Hani Hanjor traveling at over 460 knots had to drop atleast 150 feet level off the plane in order to hit the pentagon as it suppose to have. Because the 5 frames show a smoke trail comming in level over the lawn to hit the pentagon.


Also the final maneuver by Hani Hanjour, he has the pentagon in his cross hairs, anyone wanting to hit it, will drive down straight into it, but what does Hani do ? He starts doing a decending loop ? Not to mention he already had a chance to smash into the opposite end of the pentagon but he choose to do a fly by, then doing a U turn then once again he has the pentagon in sight does it hit dead on, no, he seems to start enjoying flying a 757, not to mention pretty nifty at flying it, so to test his flying abilities further he makes it a little tougher for himself and starts doing a loop ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzR-q0ij ... r_embedded

Keep in mind these are animations depicting the path of flight 77 as per the data from the black box data from the NTSB. You cannot get any more official than this.

So you can't see a major part of the out wall missing ? And the surrounding damage to the facade of the building ? Also keep in mind that pic was not taken immediately after the strike but after clean up

No I don't. I also don't know how far the cruise missile penetrated into the building or see any relevance to a cruise missile strike against a hotel to the reinforced walls of the Pentagon.

Misleading how, the example I gave was to show the missle can be adjusted to type of target it is meant to strike. Not that it was a that one.

First of all, I was talking about your picture of the Pentagon's wall compared to the actual impact of the Pentagon that I said was misleading.

Secondly, there's no cruise missile that explodes horizontally and at the same time has enough force to punch through three perimeter sections of the Pentagon.

Your picture doesn't show: 1) horizontal damage, 2) deep penetration into the building or even 3) confirm that it was a cruise missile strike.

Also confirming that from tonnes of plane and passenger luggage wreckage you have just enough to fill a small pickup and not bigger than one person to pickup.

What's your source that all of flight 77's wreckage fit into one pick up truck?

event horizon wrote:No I don't. I also don't know how far the cruise missile penetrated into the building or see any relevance to a cruise missile strike against a hotel to the reinforced walls of the Pentagon.

That was just an asthetic comparison of damaged caused, purely for reference.

event horizon wrote:First of all, I was talking about your picture of the Pentagon's wall compared to the actual impact of the Pentagon that I said was misleading.

That was purely because I couldn't find a better picture, I was looking for clearer one and thanks for posting one

event horizon wrote:Secondly, there's no cruise missile that explodes horizontally and at the same time has enough force to punch through three perimeter sections of the Pentagon.

Clearly you do not much about weaponary, there are convetional missiles and smart bombs that can knock down half if not the entire pentagon in one strike

Look up the GBU 43 B with a 8.5 ton warwhead capable of flatening 9 city blocks or the AGM 86 or AGM 128 to name a few

event horizon wrote:Your picture doesn't show: 1) horizontal damage, 2) deep penetration into the building or even 3) confirm that it was a cruise missile strike.

Again read above. and also
1) Ground level walls knocked down with only the support columns visible and almost no damage to the floors above, very similar to the pentagon

2)Again depends on what type of warhead is used for what type of building.

3)Look it up a very famous event of a cruise missle hitting the famous Rashid Hotel in Baghdad during the first gulf war. CNN covered it extensively

event horizon wrote:What's your source that all of flight 77's wreckage fit into one pick up truck?

[/quote]

Nobody needs to tell one that. Look at all pictures of the debri found, Video was being broadcast live around the world, no one saw any significant werckage if any on the outside. Specially when the official story says that the wings and tail most likely were ripped off, hence explaning the smallish hole on the outer facade. i.e leaving most of the debri on the outside.

Also what are your comments on the NTSB flight path of flight 77. Why it doesn't follow the altitude and path south of the Citgo station and not remotely possible for it the knock down the lamp posts and for Hani Hanjour to drop down from 180 ft to almost ground level, level off in the last second of flight ? Plus his "victory lap" before he decides to ram the pentagon ?

Clearly you do not much about weaponary, there are convetional missiles and smart bombs that can knock down half if not the entire pentagon in one strike

I'm still trying to figure out which conventional missile will leave a ninety six foot wide horizontal gash in the Pentagon's wall - as a opposed to, say, a 45' hole in the Pentagon's wall.

Was it the warhead that is capable of leveling 9 city blocks?

Perhaps if I turn my head and squint, I can see how the damage to the al Rashid hotel is similar to the Pentagon?

Again, Pentagon wall: http://www.oilempire.us/oil-jpg/pent-ri ... nnouw0.jpg

Baghdad hotel: http://www.serendipity.li/wot/xymphora/rahsid1-20.jpg

And Pentagon wall from an obscure angle that you decided to post: http://www.serendipity.li/wot/xymphora/ ... ntagon.jpg

Nobody needs to tell one that. Look at all pictures of the debri found

And we know that because none of the debris would have been inside the building. And, of course, we've seen every photo of debris from flight 77.

Ok.

Also, perhaps it was a 'magic' cruise missile?

Again your just trying to be thick and pedantic. Again the picture is for asthetic comparison only. Even if you make a rough reference you can see atleast four columns with an average distance of atleast 15th if not more between them. Thats makes it atleast a 60 ft horizontal gash right there also note this is not the entire extent of damage too. It extents beyond the field of vision of the photograph.

Again we have not seen every photgraphs and video, and thats what it is all about now isn't it. But there were hundreds of cameras focused on the pentagon right after the attacks beaming pictures across the world. Two wings and a tail or even sizeable pieces resembling anything close to those are never seen in any pic or video and these are supposed to have been shorn off. Thus lying out side abeit even in pieces as expected from after a crash.

Also you refuse to comment on the NTSB animations which clearly show flight 77 well above and away the poles. Again "official credible evidence" contradicting itself.

Lt Robert Medairos in his own words

Guys this is getting super technical - maybe it better just to look at basic facts.

EH -

1. I asked a while back (lost in the thread) about the way the buildings came down and you said I believe that it looked like a controlled demolition. If that is the case does that alone not make you wonder about what happened? If you think the planes and fires did cause it what about tower 7 which fell without attack and just a fire - does that make you suspicious?

2. Do you thinks its reasonable or natural that of the 100s of camera's posted outside the pentagon the US government nor the 911 commission has allowed the media any of the pictures of the airplane as it hit the pentagon except for an extremely vague footage from a security camera?

3. Usually when your friend or family is murdered by someone (in this case supposedly terrorists) your grief is translated into anger which is an extremely helpful emotion (in the short term) to allow you to overcome the tragedy itself as well as provide acceptance of who is to blame. I find this particularly interesting when you look at 911 truth org as there are a large number of relatives that are unwilling to except this hatred and acceptance and instead search for answers that they believe have not been provided to them or anyone else for that matter. I think that speaks volumes - do you?

4. Do you believe that US foreign policy is motivated towards higher defence spending and therefore the lobbyists and powers that be in the US are keen to ensure that global conflicts persist and a global enemy is ever present?

5. Do you think that the idea of a global enemy (that of islamic terrorists) is one that particularly suits the US's foreign policy as it gives them carte blanche to be present wherever they feel a threat/enemy is present (different from when there was a cold war, or WW2, etc).

Although Joe I appreciate your post, these kinds of questions are easily dismissed as specualtion by the detractors and the discussion fizzels away either into mud slinging or mockery, although I'm not in disagreement with you that indeed these resulting wars have been extremely profitable for the Military Industrial Complex.

But right now, working purely with know facts and evidence. Once you look at all the facts and evidence of all four attacks you see tremendous flaws and inconsitencies and once you can cast a serious doubt on the official story then everything starts to fall in its own place automatically. Like I said earlier the events of 9/11 are key to this whole scenario. If that itself can be shown to be based on lies and misinformation then proves its self automaticaly. The devil is in the details.

Just as someoe is sentenced on the testimony of one witness and later that witness is proved to be a liar, then the sentence is revoked and the person exonerated.

I hope you get what I'm trying to say.

Yep DDS I totally agree - the truth will ultimately be supported with scientific tests and conclusions of what was and was not possible rather than the more general stuff. My point however was just that I am not sure that that level of debate and discussion on this forum is going to be fruitful as neither of us are experts and anyone of us can post an assessment from the web. I can't see a situation where EH says "you're right DDS the engine part does look different and yes it only does travel at 4000 knots". The general arguments are sometimes the strongest. For me the whole thing stinks to high heaven for a few reasons that I think a layman can associate with. When you just look at the basic things like what people said on the day (about the flight, about what they saw, the expolosions they heard, what they were told, etc) for me at least it carry's a lot of weight. The video link you posted of the cop at the scene of the pentagon just a few back was perfect in that regard - hard to argue with a cop at the scene stating the obvious. Along with it the infamous quote of the coroner for flight 93 where he said something like he stopped being a coroner 20 minutes after arriving as there were no bodies present. Seems all those flights were diverted to somewhere (maybe military bases) and the people disposed of.

EH will never admit to anything ( Look at the year long battle with shaf ! ) will jump frpm point to point while ignoring anything he cannot challenge, thats his personality flaw and nothing to do with this thread.

Anywhoo talking of eyewitness accounts Joe here is something I have only recently come across and I think Icenic would also be intrested to have a look over this, still looking into it and was saving it for a latter part in this discussion. This is done by group of people who call themselves CIT or citizen investigation team. This provides another dimension to the argument "the white plane " Look at it and pretty hard to ignore even when if you don't give much creedence to eyewitness testimony.

Have a look and let me know what you think

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 877158021#

Also Joe your post reminded me that coroners state you need atleast a temp of a 1000 C for around 30 minutes to cremate a body. They say most of the victims were vapourised on impact yet minute DNA evidence survived that inferno ? Again trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Good vid link - first hand reports like these are the ones that can't be covered up. After 911 it was all censorship and control.

Interesting video, which only raises the question that if the U.S. government had nothing to do with these attacks, why do they keep so much information locked up? Why did they take the surveillance tape from the gas station? Why not release this info to the public and thus erase any shed of doubt? The U.S. government has claimed that they have undeniable proof that Al Qaeda was behind the attacks. Where is it? Where is this undeniable proof? Why do they keep it hidden?

Here's a video I found that is really frightening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvay28lZiHU&feature=related

I know that EH, kanelli, FD, and all those opposing our (my) opinion aren't bothered to watch "conspiracy stuff", but please, just take 10 minutes to watch this, because I would love your feedback on it.

Icenic wrote:I know that EH, kanelli, FD, and all those opposing our (my) opinion aren't bothered to watch "conspiracy stuff", but please, just take 10 minutes to watch this, because I would love your feedback on it.

Icenic the only thing I will be slightly interested in reading is a concisive credible alternative story with evidence. You claiming 77 is at the bottom of the sea without any backing up doesnt count.
The MO of the conspiratists seems to be to throw in as much as much possible youtube clips and jests in general, hoping something will gain there credibility with someone. Count me out (I really have seen enough already). Credibility will not be regained for people claiming the BBC was involved in this, claiming 77 is at the bottom of the sea or even that a missile hit at a hotel in Baghdad is comparable to what happened at the Pentagon. I could go on and on, but I hope you get the drift.

-- Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:11 pm --

desertdudeshj wrote:Here is an official animation provided by the NTSB from the data recovered from the black box.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-Q8nSEe ... r_embedded

Since this link was repeated so many times, and didnt see it before I actually had a check. After some links I found the claimes origin:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=64&st=0&
This is were it gets smelly:

a researcher from the UK, received the animation through the Freedom Of Information Act It was supplied to him on DVD and he sent it to us.

A researcher from the UK gets US government info under the FOIA? Very curious.

Then it gets worse when asking for the original data:

It is not available for download anywhere (that i know of.. .its a really big file)... but i do offer it for free on the Pandora's Black Box - Chapter One DVD along with the other research videos which you can order here...

Unfortunately i cannot offer it for download on the site as it is a HUGE file and will eat up bandwidth

Somebody has the TRUTH but cannot make it available online because the file is "huge" and "really big".

I checked further and letters from the NTSB were included:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f178/myphotos1960/FOIA_Letteranimationblock.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f178/myphotos1960/LtrHead.gif

When checking those FOIA IDs: FOIA 20060483 and FOIA 20050020, I got this:

http://www.clintonlibrary.gov/_previous/Documents/2010%20FOIA/Textual/2006-0483-F.pdf

http://www.governmentattic.org/docs/SS-2004CampaignOperationalGuide.pdf

For me this isnot innocent "lets play conspiracy games". I have very strong indications that is is fraud of official government documents. If there guys/girls were Dutch, I would have enough material and suspicion to report them. Seriously.

FD if you look at the official 9/11 hearings in the US these are the same exact animations that were played to the audience by John farmer Septemer 11 commision counsel following the same exact flight path.

John Farmer, Dean of Rutger Universities' School of Law and former Attorney General of New Jersey, was responsible for drafting the original 9/11 report. There are C Span videos of this online if you wish go and check.

Even if you didn't have those animations anyone with a little knowledge of animation software can create those information, all essential parameters are given in the official release

Here from the NTSB site itself, nothing that contradicts those animations in any single aspect from altitude to speed to direction etc etc.

https://www.ntsb.gov/Info/Flight_%20Pat ... y_AA77.pdf

Instead of trying to discredit the information, maybe should have checked with the source first ?

Also again wheter intentionaly or not you forget to mention that it is still available through the NTSB but for a fee and that the site you linked also mentions that and gives contact details of the NTSB if anyone wants to get it.

So, do much for trying to discredit the source and the data, now what do you have to say for the official flight path as per the NTSB and the 9/11 commision report and the official narative contradicting each other and the physical impossibilities that have supposed to have taken place on 9/11 for flight 77 specialy during the last one second of impact and about Hani Hanjours flying skills and showboating ?

Also how do you discredit more than a dozen some of them aviators themselves that place a low slow flying white commerical plane with numbers on the tail. Fly over the Navy Annex, north to the citgo gas station bank to the right, heading towards the pentagon ?

I still don't understand why no one's commenting on the fact that the U.S. government is concealing so much information. Does that not raise and eyebrow to you? I mean this is the largest "terrorist" act in the decade, and yet so much is being kept secret.

FD, the video I posted isn't about the details of the events. It's a video showing you how many of the 9/11 witnesses have died. A few committed suicide, one was ran over by a cab that was cut off by a black unidentified car, one in a train accident where the train that was off-course was on autopilot, some whose deaths have not been investigated, and many more. I don't understand why you couldn't spare 10 minutes of your time.

desertdudeshj wrote:Here from the NTSB site itself, nothing that contradicts those animations in any single aspect from altitude to speed to direction etc etc.

https://www.ntsb.gov/Info/Flight_%20Pat ... y_AA77.pdf

Two general maps and one general graph is given. It doesnt contradict the official story at all.

desertdudeshj wrote:Instead of trying to discredit the information, maybe should have checked with the source first ?

I did, and it appears to be a fraud, big time!

Icenic wrote:I still don't understand why no one's commenting on the fact that the U.S. government is concealing so much information. Does that not raise and eyebrow to you? I mean this is the largest "terrorist" act in the decade, and yet so much is being kept secret.

Well, Ice, there is a disproportionate amount of world events that are being credited to the US, with no tangible evidence proving it to be true or false, which gave birth the conspiracy theorists, fact of the matter is a vast majority of those unfathomable acts that are being credited to the US, couldnt be proved, not in our life times,

Hence making it difficult for one to accept that US is the "big devil" , this sentiment unfortunately will always be a subjective one.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Two general maps and one general graph is given. It doesnt contradict the official story at all.

Which goes to show you did not even look at the thing with more than a blink of an eye. If you did you can see the flight path, speed readings, altitude, right down to the 330 degree turn from now which I will refer to Hani Hanjours "victory lap" are given aswell as overlaid over maps. Which put is, AGAIN over the north side of the Citgo gas station, no where near the fallen lightpoles, but intrestingly more closer to the eyewitnesses who saw the "white plane" put it.

Flying Dutchman wrote:I did, and it appears to be a fraud, big time!

How can you say something is a fraud when the originals are still available from the source. Not only are the animations available but Excel sheets of each sensor with is relevant reading with in the time frame. Aswell as ground radar readings. Even if you did not have the NTSB animations you could recreate the flight paths.

Just as if I have gps co ordinates and time every second of a car journey I can recreate its journey. And that too if the official version was not available. In this all I'm asking is look and explain all the official data and explain why it conflicts with the official story.

Just goes to show you have no intention of looking at anything that remotely deters from the official narrative, even though the sources are official, and are just here for conformation bias.

Again becoming my favourite phrase here, can't have you cake and eat it too.

zubber wrote:

Icenic wrote:I still don't understand why no one's commenting on the fact that the U.S. government is concealing so much information. Does that not raise and eyebrow to you? I mean this is the largest "terrorist" act in the decade, and yet so much is being kept secret.

Well, Ice, there is a disproportionate amount of world events that are being credited to the US, with no tangible evidence proving it to be true or false, which gave birth the conspiracy theorists, fact of the matter is a vast majority of those unfathomable acts that are being credited to the US, couldnt be proved, not in our life times,

Hence making it difficult for one to accept that US is the "big devil" , this sentiment unfortunately will always be a subjective one.

Personaly I also don't give much fluff to such stuff, after all it has been almost a decade and it would only be natural for some people to have passed away in that time frame, although highly unlikely but I can still put this away as just mere coincidence. This is where critical thinking comes into play.

Only natural for some who witnessned or have anything to do with 9/11 to have passed away with in a duration of almost 5 to 10 years, also that many are still alive and well. If all witnesses or anyone with anything to do with it disappeared or died with weeks or even a year of 9/11 then my spidey sense would be tingling.

And also these are the kind of things that provide cannon fodder to pro 9/11 people who see these as strawmen arguments and trying to see things in the clouds ( and to be honest I do to ) and just help label the credible looking for the truth as tin foilers, if one is a looney then they all are ( guilty by association, has been attempted here aswell ). I like to look at more credible evidence, hard facts and logical explanations

And here is something more to chew on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guZ83lA8 ... re=related

desertdudeshj wrote:Just goes to show you have no intention of looking at anything that remotely deters from the official narrative, even though the sources are official, and are just here for conformation bias.

Every time I do look at it, its fraud, lies or simply just not true. Like I said 9/11 truth seekers just throw a whole bunch of youtube clips and documents at you, hoping something will cause doubt. When I do look at it, its lies. After more than 9 years no smoking gun disproving the official story is presented. You were so thumping about your clip, that I actually did have a look and no surprise its fraud, a criminal offense where I am from, forging government document. I am very sure, that if there were no video's of the jets flying into the towers, some people would also claim no jets flew into the towers. Well, some actually do, claiming it were holograms.
Instead of throwing clips and document in the wild, give me alternative story. What DID happen to 77, your NTSB document that you are thumping about now states with great certaintity it crached into the Pentagon.

-- Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:25 pm --

Icenic wrote:FD, the video I posted isn't about the details of the events. It's a video showing you how many of the 9/11 witnesses have died. A few committed suicide, one was ran over by a cab that was cut off by a black unidentified car, one in a train accident where the train that was off-course was on autopilot, some whose deaths have not been investigated, and many more. I don't understand why you couldn't spare 10 minutes of your time.

Is this your smoking gun? A person ran over by a black unidentified car amongst others?

FD -

I don't think Icenic, DDS or anyone else has said at any point "this is exactly what happened" - nobody knows exactly the truth of the matter but we all find the events strange and questionable. Hence questions pertaining to flight 77 are somewhat mute.

Let me ask you just one question - did you find anything abnormal in the way the buildings (south tower, north tower and building7) fell on 911? Did it not seem like a controlled demolition? When do buildings fall to the ground like that - particularly building 7 which was not even hit by a plane.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Just goes to show you have no intention of looking at anything that remotely deters from the official narrative, even though the sources are official, and are just here for conformation bias.

Every time I do look at it, its fraud, lies or simply just not true. Like I said 9/11 truth seekers just throw a whole bunch of youtube clips and documents at you, hoping something will cause doubt. When I do look at it, its lies. After more than 9 years no smoking gun disproving the official story is presented. You were so thumping about your clip, that I actually did have a look and no surprise its fraud, a criminal offense where I am from, forging government document. I am very sure, that if there were no video's of the jets flying into the towers, some people would also claim no jets flew into the towers. Well, some actually do, claiming it were holograms.
Instead of throwing clips and document in the wild, give me alternative story. What DID happen to 77, your NTSB document that you are thumping about now states with great certaintity it crached into the Pentagon.

Then I welcome you to please point out where you find the fraud and lies ? The NTSB report does indeed say a plane crashed into the pentagon, but again you are ignoring its narrative of how. You have to suspend the laws of phyics and established science for it to fullfill that claim.

Also ignoring how that its contradicts the official narrative (which ironicaly it is a part of) of the flight path over the said fallen light poles and the official south flight path. All the evidence which pierces big holes in the official story, and is indeed the smoking gun, but not as to what happened but what did not happen or could not have happened instead. Laws of physics and math do not and cannot be suspended.

I offer you no alternate narrative or conclusion, all I offer you is too look at all the evidence there is out there and wheter it coroborates or conflicts with the official story and to come to your own conclusion. If it confirms then you have nothing to worry about. And if it conflicts, then if you are a logical being you need to start looking for either evidence that fills the holes and gaps in the official narrative or come to the conclusion you are being lied to and there is more than what the official narrative says there is and maybe start searching for the truth.

Also as said earlier that lack of an alternative narrative does not automaticaly prove the official one right either.

And if you are a part of or wish to take part in this debate then you are required to back up your beliefs instead of just dismissing/mocking/shrugging off others who have provided evidence. Or at the very least provide a reasonable and logical argument for your opinion other than the lack of an alternative conclusion.

JoeTGF wrote:I don't think Icenic, DDS or anyone else has said at any point "this is exactly what happened"

They havent stated remotely what happened according to them, just jests.

JoeTGF wrote:Let me ask you just one question

Just one question? sure!

JoeTGF wrote: did you find anything abnormal in the way the buildings (south tower, north tower and building7) fell on 911?

No.

FD - Thanks for answering the question. I suppose we should all be worried that buildings may collapse from fires then - time to get more insurance!! Am surprised - even EH said it looked like demolitions and he is a tough customer - but maybe you are just sticking to your guns and refusing the accept it looks more than odd.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

JoeTGF wrote:I don't think Icenic, DDS or anyone else has said at any point "this is exactly what happened"

They havent stated remotely what happened according to them, just jests.

Again you are wrong here FD, I, atleast have never stated anything of such. Just evidence of what did not happen and did not offer you any conclusions of my own. The cruise missle attack is my own personal belief and opinion and just a theory and not fact and provided someback up as why I believe it could be so, and nothing else, you are free to believe it or not and I am also willing to admit I could be totally wrong, specially if new evidence comes to light. Its not a belief or opinion set in stone. Unlike yours.

desertdudeshj wrote:Then I welcome you to please point out where you find the fraud and lies ?

Your youtube clip with the alternate filght path is a fraud!

desertdudeshj wrote:Also ignoring how that its contradicts the official narrative (which ironicaly it is a part of) of the flight path over the said fallen light poles and the official south flight path.

Point me to the exact spot in the NTSB document from where you get this info.

desertdudeshj wrote:I offer you no alternate narrative or conclusion

Critisizing and mockery are easy. Building something is the hard part. Thats where the 9/11 truth seekers fall on their face miserable.