Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

Flying Dutchman · Dec 13, 2010

http://translate.google.nl/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.depers.nl%2Fbinnenland%2F531138%2FFanatieke-moslims-bedreigen-tolerante.html

After jews and gays are leaving because of constant harasment by Moroccan youth in Holland, the question was asked who is next? I actually thought that the next step would be that in certain neighborhoods women without head cover wouldnt dare entering anymore. I overlooked the ussual suspects. A small community of Ahmadiyya's now lives in fear because of the actions of Muslims in Holland. I hope it doesnt come that far that a polotician has to say that there is no more place for them in Holland and they better leave or that people look away from this problem and try to tell others that there is nothing to worry about and it is all blown out of proportion.

desertdudeshj · Dec 13, 2010

So let me get this right. You would be totally ok there was an immigration ban on Morrocans or dare I even say it, have them all deported and Holland became a santcuary for all Ahmadiyyas. You wouldn't their mind their women wearing the Hijab and Niqab out in public or having an Ahmadiyya mosques with high minarets is every corner of Holland. Have govt grants to build them as well as big teaching centers and libraries.

After all Ahmadiyyas are persecuted in the sub continent and need to place to go to. Would it be ok for Holland to accept unconditonaly all Ahmadi refugees ?

Flying Dutchman · Dec 13, 2010

desertdudeshj wrote: You would be totally ok there was an immigration ban on Morrocans

No, I would be completely OK with an immigration ban on people who donot have to fear for their lives because of their political/religious views outside their fault and/or who donot give a positive contribution to society.

desertdudeshj wrote: have them all deported and Holland

This is my take. People who have two passports, lets say a Morrocan and Dutch one, and donot show any respect towards the culture and values of a country where they live, it should be possible in special cases to take their citizenship and residency away.

desertdudeshj wrote: mosques with high minarets is every corner of Holland

I would mind that.

desertdudeshj wrote:After all Ahmadiyyas are persecuted in the sub continent and need to place to go to. Would it be ok for Holland to accept unconditonaly all Ahmadi refugees ?

I believe Holland should be open for everybody who has to fear for their lives because of peacefull religious believes. If that applies to Ahmadi's, yes Holland should accept them (at least temporary). If one misbehaves, that one should leave immediately though. Ahmadiyya's never bothered anybody in Holland and are respected as good citizens (I used to live close to one of their centers)

zubber · Dec 13, 2010

See if holland is having these problems caused by refugees, why doesnt the govt just stop entertaining refugees ? Is holland bound by any law that forces them to accept the refugees in the first place ?

shafique · Dec 13, 2010

Anyone targeted with violence would indeed be concerned - but there's no indication about the numbers of nutters that the group is frighted of.

Indeed the Imam they named in the article is a Dutch guy - Mr van de Ven, who a quick Google shows up as one of those mad mullah types.

Given that the violence is very real (with the Hague mosque being burned in 1987, if I understand the article correctly) - vigilance makes sense. Especially as the Pakistani mullahs are inciting attacks against Shia, Ahmadis etc- and they want to export their hatred.

All religions have their nutters - ours are more high profile. :roll:

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Dec 13, 2010

zubber wrote:Is holland bound by any law that forces them to accept the refugees in the first place ?

The Genevan Convention.
From a moral point of view I fully support giving (temporary) refugee to political/relgious refugees. Thats the raison d'etre of the Netherlands, and thats what made the country successful.

desertdudeshj · Dec 13, 2010

Thank you FD, but why temporarily ? Where do they go from there then ?

Berrin · Dec 13, 2010

This is my take. People who have two passports, lets say a Morrocan and Dutch one, and donot show any respect towards the culture and values of a country where they live, it should be possible in special cases to take their citizenship and residency away.

Depends on the culture and the values? who defines what is more/most acceptable?
I almost feel that you are on the verge to offer halt on the progress of civilization..
People’s living in peace and comfort is only possible through ethics,morals,modesty not on particular type of culture..

shafique · Dec 13, 2010

Another quick question - the is it Dutch Morrocans who are at fault?

From the article it sounded like it was Pakistani Muslims and the Dutch convert Imam (Khatme Nabuwat is Pakistani organisation).

Just asking - as the article didn't mention Morrocans, but the OP post does. ?

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Dec 13, 2010

desertdudeshj wrote:Thank you FD, but why temporarily ? Where do they go from there then ?

Not always temporary. I believe the system should be more lenient towards families with kids. But preferably back to where they came from. Ideally there home country, like Bosnians how were giving temporary refugee until the war was over and didnt have to fear anymore to be locked up in Serbian concentration camps. People Iran were giving temporary refugee. As soon as it is safe for gays p.e. to live in Iran, they are send back. This can be next year, or this can be indefinitely. If they cannot send back to their home country, send them back to their region. I think refugee problems should be solved as much as possible within the region. In certain cases people should be given indefinite residency or even citizenship. If people already stayed for many years in the country and proved they can be good valuable citizens (and toke the effort the learn the language), give them a passport. This applies especially with families with kids who already went to Dutch schools for years.

shafique · Dec 13, 2010

I did a quick Google and came across this story from Dec 09 - an example of tolerance in Holland within the Muslim community. I would have expected a Dutch person to highlight this aspect of their country.. but that's just me I guess.

Also, looking at the article again - it appears that the head of the Ahmadiyya community is also a Dutchman (going by the name in the article).

A Dutch Muslim broadcasting company competing for airtime has recognised the controversial Ahmadiyya sect as one of the main currents in Islam. Such recognition is unique in the world.

By Mohamed Amezian and Michel Hoebink

"In the whole of Europe you won't find a single Muslim organisation which includes Sunnis and Shiites, Alevites and Ahmadiyya," says Fethi Killi of the Muslim Broadcasting Foundation (SMO) proudly. "We have achieved that for the very first time."

The Ahmadiyya is an Islamic sect that is considered heretic by the main institutions of orthodox Sunni Islam. As many members of the large Dutch Surinamese community belong to the Ahmadiyya, the recognition of the sect, which originated in Pakistan, has always been a sensitive topic. The Dutch authorities recognise the Ahmadiyya as one of the main movements in Islam. But orthodox Muslim organisations refuse to recognise them as Muslims.

Competition
The issue surfaced again recently in the process of establishing a new Muslim Broadcasting Company. The former Dutch Muslim Broadcaster (NMO) had failed because of internal divisions. Five new organisations are now competing for the available airtime, of which the SMO is the largest and most favoured candidate.

An important measure used by the Dutch authorities in selecting the new Broadcasting Company is that they should represent as many of the Dutch Islamic groups and movements as possible. The SMO complies with this demand by including in its organisation all the groups that are recognised by the Dutch authorities as the 'main movements of Islam': Sunnis, Shiites, Alevites and Ahmadiyya.

"It's important to do justice to the diversity of the Muslim community in the Netherlands," says Yasin Furqani of the Council of Moroccan Mosques in the Netherlands (RMMN), one of SMO's members. "The Ahmadiyya are an important section of that community and therefore belong to our organisation."

Mature
The Ahmadiyya are highly controversial in the Muslim world, explains Fathi Killi of the SMO. He thinks that in particular the Sunni groups in his organisation have shown themselves to be very mature in their decision to co-operate. "For the first time in Europe, these groups have decided not to exclude others on theological grounds. We emphasise that we all worship the same God and believe in the same prophets and the same Holy Books."

Not all Dutch Muslim organisations are content with this ecumenical approach, says Killi. "Some refuse to cooperate and emphasise that there is only one correct Islam, namely theirs." Negotiations to merge or co-operate with another candidate, the Muslim Dutch Service (MON), failed for this reason. The SMO allegedly refused to recognise the Ahmadiyya as an equal partner.

Exclude
Radi Suudi, spokesman of MON, denies that his organisation wants to exclude the Ahmadiyya. "We are most willing to co-operate with them. But the SMO demanded from us a written declaration that we recognise the Ahmadiyya as a major Islamic current. We are a journalistic organisation and as such we do not want to occupy ourselves with such theological issues."

The Dutch authorities are expected to decide in January which of the candidates will get the airtime and which will be the new Muslim broadcasting company.

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/dutch ... diyya-sect

Flying Dutchman · Dec 13, 2010

Berrin wrote:who defines what is more/most acceptable?

In a democracy that would be the majority.

Berrin wrote:People’s living in peace and comfort is only possible through ethics,morals,modesty not on particular type of culture.

Dutch culture has always been very private and I would say the country's motto is:
"Nobody cares what you do, as long as donot bother others". Live and let live so to say. This conflicts with some immigrants morals, I would say they are bringing Dutch culture down to their level.

The protestant culture is extremely modest by the way.

Berrin · Dec 14, 2010

Flying Dutchman wrote: In a democracy that would be the majority.

For some reason I find similarities between capitalism and democracy, when everthing is cool and calm it seems to work fine but when the unexpected happens (political/economic)rising tensions for the rough then suddenly many things become the legitimate rights of the majority, making it wild for the minority..That is why I said People’s living in peace and comfort is only possible through ethics,morals and modesty no matter what the conditions are...

Properly funtioning full democracy is not meant to be the behavior of domineering majority but the participation/contribution of all sides for the better..

Dutch culture has always been very private and I would say the country's motto is:
"Nobody cares what you do, as long as donot bother others". Live and let live so to say. This conflicts with some immigrants morals, I would say they are bringing Dutch culture down to their level.

Generally speking people only turn very private when Individualism is on increase, and what leads to individualism is higher standards of intellectual(higher education)/financial/industrial development(gains)...

Problem starts when individualist culture clashes with collectivist culture which is what the muslims or asians bring when they immigrate..
For me while individualsm is a path speeding to kill the spirit of a nation- to dissipate eventually, collectivism has all the qualities to stay lively, interact and prosper all toghether...
Perhaps mixing with other cultures is not bad after all. Everyone will find something to learn from one another that’s as long as we all stick to morality,ethics and virtue..

And again if this privacy is due to “popular culture” than it shouldn’t worry anyone becouse as the interaction and integration of cultures continue, humans will learn and develope further that’s how a civilisation changes its phase in progress to transform.

For me the only culture to preserve is “high culture” i.e arts, literature,gastronomy.. any other type of culture is transient and dynamic and open to evolve in time.. on all fronts,as a proof, the world is certainly not where it was a few centuries ago..

Plus what I’d like to remind you is that as an individual it is not possible to live or let live without any kind of interaction with a second, third or whatever number of people involve...It technically is not possible...,if you’re complaining about imigrants It means that there is some sort of interaction and that you care and it bothers you or others...So it's not all private like it is behind closed doors..

Flying Dutchman · Dec 14, 2010

Berrin wrote:ethics,morals

Ethics and morals are not universal.

Berrin · Dec 16, 2010

Flying Dutchman wrote: Ethics and morals are not universal.

Well, virtues and vices are universal since the creation of first humans, they were in the scripture and literature of previous civilizations. What you probably meant to say was that each individual has a core of underlying values that contribute to his/her personal belief system...
As adults, why we all show such great differences depends on our level of percipience and how we use our faculties to judge...not everyone share equal abilities to correct their unacceptable, deficient morals... Partly becouse our innate bestial aspect of the soul, without the support of spiritual heart overrides our good habits especially when we get excessively fond of worldy pleasures, so much so that we don’t consider whether what we do is good or evil, useful or harmful etc....

Flying Dutchman · Dec 17, 2010

Berrin wrote:we get excessively fond of worldy pleasures

I like my beer and I am indeed excessively fond of carnal pleasures (with adult women that is). Cannot see how that is evil.

Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

Ahmadiyya's Live In Fear In Holland.

Go To

Dubai Discussions

Dubai Expat Forums

Dubai Business

Dubai Tech Discussions

Dubai Classifieds