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How about letting women go and not keeping them as slaves? Why was it unavoidable?

kanelli wrote:How about letting women go and not keeping them as slaves? Why was it unavoidable?

As icenic mentioned in his reply, the practice was during the period of war, islam had laws that let them live with some dignity, were they captured by the infidels during that time, they would definitely be bought and sold as cattle.

It doesn't exist today, your sentiments are from this era of feminism, which is very young concept

There must be evil, so it simply a case of the lesser of the evils then?

kanelli wrote:There must be evil, so it simply a case of the lesser of the evils then?

Totally with you on this point , fyi - men and women are equal in every respect ( beside's our anatomy and physiology)

Well yes, in a time where morality was almost non-existent, lessening the evil would be the start, leading to an eventual banning of it completely.

You can't go to a bunch of addicts and just lock them up and expect them to heal, you have to treat them. A similar concept applies here.

Icenic wrote:Well yes, in a time where morality was almost non-existent, lessening the evil would be the start, leading to an eventual banning of it completely.

It is not just the start, as it has been mentioned in Islamic literature many times, their laws are universal and are valid forever!

zubber wrote:... fyi - men and women are equal in every respect ( beside's our anatomy and physiology)

In Islam?!!!

Supposedly. Though I haven't found men and women to be treated equally in practice by any religion.

melika969 wrote:

zubber wrote:... fyi - men and women are equal in every respect ( beside's our anatomy and physiology)

In Islam?!!!

This is a multifaceted question , whose response cannot be summed up using one dimensional ideas. But to put it plainly, in the site of "GOD" , men and women are both judged within the same framework of deed and faith.

The nitty gritty which you want to point out are actually differences in regards to application of the law, justification of which is purely situational based.

And as kanelli shrewdly pointed out, gender related discrepancies are a common phenomenon in all faiths.

zubber wrote:But to put it plainly, in the site of "GOD" , men and women are both judged within the same framework of deed and faith.

Says who? you? or God told you himself?

Besides, if the rules and laws on the earth didnt treat them equally, why they should be judged in an equal way? Your God should do sth in favor of women!

zubber wrote:The nitty gritty which you want to point out are actually differences in regards to application of the law, justification of which is purely situational based.

The nitty gritty you are talking about, are realities and suffering for women in Islamic countries.

zubber wrote:And as kanelli shrewdly pointed out, gender related discrepancies are a common phenomenon in all faiths.

So??? we should accpet it becuase it is common in all religions?! what a justification for Islam!

So true melika!

melika969 wrote:Says who? you? or God told you himself?

I wont pass a remark on your absurd suggestion , but it is stated plainly in the scriptures, A closer examination of it will reveal it as such

Besides, if the rules and laws on the earth didnt treat them equally, why they should be judged in an equal way? Your God should do sth in favor of women!

They SHALL be judged equally, as it is written in the scriptures. And the law applied by GOD would be according to what was written in the scriptures

The nitty gritty you are talking about, are realities and suffering for women in Islamic countries.

The suffering in the islamic countries is a combination of many factors , religion not being the ONLY SOURCE, So it cannot be blamed for it. This is an application problem

So??? we should accpet it becuase it is common in all religions?! what a justification for Islam!

That was not a justification of islam, perhaps you should refrain from jumping to conclusions, That remark was meant to say that "Gender discrepancies are not restricted to only the islamic religion"

I do get confused about what is cultural and what is religious and the mixing of the two according to interpretation...

kanelli wrote:I do get confused about what is cultural and what is religious and the mixing of the two according to interpretation...

I studied about it K, and as you know I m living in an Islamic counrty. Most of it is religous, not cultural.

Zubber, sorry I dont believe in your scriptures!

It's a no brainer that many religions are twisted to favour men and women come off second best - you'd have to be blind and deaf not to see or hear about it! It's common practice.

Women are still fighting for equality the world over!

A women can never be a king, nor the man can be a queen
(Verse number 1, Sym's holy book)

symmetric wrote:A women can never be a king, nor the man can be a queen
(Verse number 1, Sym's holy book)

I beg to differ, there are many male 'queens'!

I think it's too obvious that all religions have set of rules that some women don't seem to appreciate.
Adam came first, thus first come first served

Yes, and what a problem when 50% of the population don't appreciate it...

Chocoholic wrote:

symmetric wrote:A women can never be a king, nor the man can be a queen
(Verse number 1, Sym's holy book)

I beg to differ, there are many male 'queens'!

Hahaha! I'd like to hear some examples

melika969 wrote:I studied about it K, and as you know I m living in an Islamic counrty. Most of it is religous, not cultural.

You are mistaken, it is quite the opposite

Zubber, sorry I dont believe in your scriptures!

Dont have to be sorry, your opinions are your divine right, (albeit something that cant be freely practiced in the middle eastern nations) , Anyway in order to argue anything based on the scripture, we have to look at it in a thorough manner, and abide by the rules of interpretation. Then only in this case can it be a valid argument

The problem lies in the fact that there are many self proclaimed quasi scholars of any given faith, making bold yet completely baseless arguments for or against any specific religion

symmetric wrote:I think it's too obvious that all religions have set of rules that some women don't seem to appreciate.
Adam came first, thus first come first served

Yeah but you know God messed it up when he made Adam, so he then made the perfect creation in Eve - sorry buddy you're sloppy seconds!

zubber wrote:

melika969 wrote:I studied about it K, and as you know I m living in an Islamic counrty. Most of it is religous, not cultural.

You are mistaken, it is quite the opposite

No, you are mistaken! Religious rules are quite clear, and they are very different from cultures. at least from persian culture!

zubber wrote:The problem lies in the fact that there are many self proclaimed quasi scholars of any given faith, making bold yet completely baseless arguments for or against any specific religion

Nopes, not true. I dont need any scholars review, I can bring up anti women verses from Quran itself! No biased interpretation is needed here.

melika969 wrote:No, you are mistaken! Religious rules are quite clear, and they are very different from cultures. at least from persian culture!

Persian culture ? I am referring to the culture in the middle east, what is being practiced is culture and nothing related to religion, what part of the world are you talking about exactly ?

Nopes, not true. I dont need any scholars review, I can bring up anti women verses from Quran itself! No biased interpretation is needed here.

Yeps , very true, YOu claimed you have "studied" it , Then you obviously realized , the verses are supported by supplementary material before a conclusion is drawn, and their are established rules of interpretation, Your Ideas are of your own creation, state that clearly , and has nothing to do with exegesis of the text

zubber wrote:Persian culture ? I am referring to the culture in the middle east, what is being practiced is culture and nothing related to religion, what part of the world are you talking about exactly ?

LOL. at least use google before showing your "wisdom"! Middle East, Iran, Persian... sounds familiar?

zubber wrote:Yeps , very true, YOu claimed you have "studied" it , Then you obviously realized , the verses are supported by supplementary material before a conclusion is drawn, and their are established rules of interpretation, Your Ideas are of your own creation, state that clearly , and has nothing to do with exegesis of the text

and those supplementary material are provided by who? There are tons of them!
Which do you accept? The ones you like more?! Why should we accept it? and are they contradicting Quran?

In our society, atleast here in the Emirates, there are many men (including myself) complaining about how women are controlling the society to some extent in a bad way (offcourse not all).

Despite the fact, my country is Muslim, yet women have significant influence even in terms of the country's leadership and laws. What's even more interesting is that a LARGE % of them are more than satisfied with the many regulations of the local traditions and even religion to the extent that they dislike liberal men.

A girl I proposed to accused me of being too liberal and thought I'm not a good match

Marriage expenses here are horrible, and controlled by women (family & relatives).
A regular marriage would cost around 400,000 AED! Most of it is spent to please the girl (bride), and her FEMALE family members. We as local men here are fed up of these marriage expenses, it's crazy!

Can we stop it? Yes I can stop it but I'll be cursed by my family members (female ones), and then again based on our "culture" and "religion", we're supposed to treat our parents as holy people and bothering them is a huge sin. So I have to please our women in order to get the blessing, lol. Such a messed up world!

Traditions and religion, the combination of these two elements in our society is such a pain!

Men rights? Shall we claim that now?

KSA and Iran are even worse, abusing religion for political purposes is against religion itself.
They both track a mutated version of religion. I just feel sorry for those people who had to suffer.

If KSA was really tracking proper moderate Islamic law, then why is it VERY different than the UAE, Kuwait, Qatar, Syria, Egypt, and the other long list of Muslim countries?
Same concept applys to Iran.

Religion is persoal atleast keep it that way rather than forcing it. Or else it will end up being abused by human.

melika969 wrote:LOL. at least use google before showing your "wisdom"! Middle East, Iran, Persian... sounds familiar?

It would be advisable you be more clear , Iran and the middle east have starkly different "pseduo islamic culture" , do google that too

and those supplementary material are provided by who? There are tons of them!
Which do you accept? The ones you like more?! Why should we accept it? and are they contradicting Quran?

Clearly you are unaware of the fundamentals of the interpretation of the text.

And your "study" was inadequate, but not to worry, a thorough unbiased revision would be a good place to start. Good luck

zubber wrote:Clearly you are unaware of the fundamentals of the interpretation of the text.

And your "study" was inadequate, but not to worry, a thorough unbiased revision would be a good place to start. Good luck

yea right!!!

Dear, first you need to educate yourself about countries in middle east, then you can comment on their cultures.

Lesson 1: Iran is in middle east!

melika969 wrote:

zubber wrote:Clearly you are unaware of the fundamentals of the interpretation of the text.

And your "study" was inadequate, but not to worry, a thorough unbiased revision would be a good place to start. Good luck

yea right!!!

Dear, first you need to educate yourself about countries in middle east, then you can comment on their cultures.

Lesson 1: Iran is in middle east!

haha

Lesson 2 - They are shia , with a completely different government and a starkly different society

zubber wrote:haha

Lesson 2 - They are shia , with a completely different government and a starkly different society

oh really?! how interesting, I see you learned to use google!

Good job!

Yes really , and thank you , I wish you well in you unbiased review of the religion !

Good Luck !

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