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i dont believe what men tell me !! thats would be the lowest i sink if i ever just believe whatever i hear just because it came from a man !!
i have my own mind and i think there for i am !
im a university student for god sake i go around i do researches i read i came from this place and i lived in it my whole life i think i do have true say in the matter !

Sarah, sorry but how do you know these local guy frinds of yours are virgins? Oh let me guess, because they told you so. By your own admission you already said you don't believe what guys tell you.

The 'majority' of local guys are messing around before marriage, many are paying for it and they're also playing with each other!

I actually feel sorry for you, that you seem to live in this fantasy land and can't see what is actually going on, but that's common in circles like yours.

It would be extremely rare to find a guy that hasn't been s.e.xually active before marriage - and you say you're into Westerns? Then that would be a big fat ZERO then.

And there are women who are technically virgins when they are married... if you get my drift.

Same as the guys then?

And of course, girls can pop into the surgery in Harley Street and get a 'Humpty-Dumpty' job done just before the wedding.



Knight

Dubai Knight wrote:Same as the guys then?

And of course, girls can pop into the surgery in Harley Street and get a 'Humpty-Dumpty' job done just before the wedding.



Knight

Which is complete nonsense in the first place.

Dubai Knight wrote:Same as the guys then?

And of course, girls can pop into the surgery in Harley Street and get a 'Humpty-Dumpty' job done just before the wedding.



Knight

You can get that done on the NHS, DK. I read that in the Daily Mail

Dubai Knight wrote:Same as the guys then?

And of course, girls can pop into the surgery in Harley Street and get a 'Humpty-Dumpty' job done just before the wedding.



Knight

Exactly, those two ways

kanelli wrote:And there are women who are technically virgins when they are married... if you get my drift.

Errrr, we're not talking the tradesman's entrance are we?

Bethsmum wrote:

kanelli wrote:And there are women who are technically virgins when they are married... if you get my drift.

Errrr, we're not talking the tradesman's entrance are we?

ROFLMAO , Believe it or not I have heard stories about how middle eastern women stay "virgins" by giving unrestricted access to the "trademen's entrance"

Without going into any details, yup thats is also a one method practiced to preserve virginity.

desertdudeshj wrote:Without going into any details, yup thats is also a one method practiced to preserve virginity.

I don't think anyone needs details! I think we all know what is meant by it lol

But it has to be said, I don't get it! If you're going to let someone do that, then why not just have normal s.e.x - bizarre thinking at it's best or worst as the case may be.

^^ sadly from what i understand , they're are predators who take advantage of this false understanding by the womenfolk , and initiate them into depravity

You'll find that men are allowed to have intercourse outside of marriage in Islam. For example, although outdated, if a man has a concubine (slave girl), he is allowed to have intercourse with her. I'm not so sure if the same applies to a women.

brucebanner wrote:You'll find that men are allowed to have intercourse outside of marriage in Islam

Technically No, its 100% illegal and a punishable offense.

For example, although outdated, if a man has a concubine (slave girl),

As you have stated it is an outdated concept that held relevance for a certain period of time ,When taken in the most literal sense

he is allowed to have intercourse with her.

Not only that , The owner of the concubine has financial obligations towards the woman, including providing for her children and defending their lives. So they are not s3x slaves per say, This s3x slave idea is a modern distorted perception, For example , the Harems of the past , were not brothels, nor where orgies occurred, the harems were from where the future kings came

I'm not so sure if the same applies to a women.

The occurrence of polyandry in recorded history is significantly negligible, not practiced in muslims nor in the other monotheistic religions.

Technically, yes. I don't even know what you're trying to get at. Everything I said is technically correct, so let's leave it at that.

Technically No, its 100% illegal and a punishable offense.

Did you read what I wrote? What about the case of a slave? Strictly speaking he isn't married to her.

These are all well known facts, there is no point trying to argue against them.

brucebanner wrote:These are all well known facts, there is no point trying to argue against them.

Well known facts Or Well known misconceptions ?

I suggest you review you what you wrote in the first place, and quit arriving at your OWN conclusions, which has no basis in proper understanding of the text from where you extracted your arguments

zubber wrote:

brucebanner wrote:These are all well known facts, there is no point trying to argue against them.

Well known facts Or Well known misconceptions ?

I suggest you review you what you wrote in the first place, and quit arriving at your OWN conclusions, which has no basis in proper understanding of the text from where you extracted your arguments

Are you trying to wind me up?

Are men allowed to have intercourse outside for marriage in Islam? The answer is yes. Regardless if it's outdated concept, It's still allowed. I don't think you understand what I wrote in my first post.

brucebanner wrote:Are men allowed to have intercourse outside for marriage in Islam? The answer is yes. Regardless if it's outdated concept, It's still allowed. I don't think you understand what I wrote in my first post.

You are mistaken , intercourse outside the bounds of marriage , is classed as a major sin, punishable by death sentence ( i dont want to talk about legalities, lets leave it at that eh) Have you been following the news, are u aware why the woman in iran is getting stoned ?

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/10382
Ruling on having intercourse with a slave woman when one has a wife
Paraphrasing ... Yes

And

Whoever regards that as haraam is a sinner who is going against the consensus of the scholars.

So it's a known fact.

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/20802
Paraphrasing ... Allaah has permitted intimacy with a slave woman if the man owns her.

Please stop already.

Thats only in the case of adultery Zubs which has to be seen by four witnesses, a catch 22 situation, more a deterrent than a viable punishment and lets not take Iran as an example of anything Islamic because its not. And no sex outside of Islam is not OK.

brucebanner wrote:Ruling on having intercourse with a slave woman when one has a wife
Paraphrasing ... Yes

And

Whoever regards that as haraam is a sinner who is going against the consensus of the scholars.

So it's a known fact.

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/20802
Paraphrasing ... Allaah has permitted intimacy with a slave woman if the man owns her.

Please stop already.

The slave woman or concubine concept doesnt not exist in todays world, it is out of context, have you ever heard of any body buying "slave women" these days ? It is not valid in today's times, Those laws are applied in a variety of ways , and is restricted to a body who makes its proper interpretations. You and I or other layman are not allowed to draw our OWN interpretations, Which itself is an illegal act.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... 9503544596 - This is an explanation of the classification of the "female slave"

Concerning having slave women, we would like to let you know that it happens to be a practice necessitated by the condition in which early Muslims found themselves vis-a-vis non-Muslims, as both parties engaged in wars. Slave women or milk al-yameen are referred to in the Qur'an as “Those whom your right hand possess” or “ma malakat aymanukum”; they are those taken as captives during conquests and subsequently became slaves, or those who were descendants of slaves.

Thus, it was a war custom in the past to take men and women as captives and then turn them into slaves. Islam did not initiate it, rather, it was something in practice long ago before the advent of Islam. And when Islam came, it tried to eradicate this practice, bit by bit. So it first restricted it to the reciprocal practice of war, in the sense that Muslims took war captives just as the enemies did with Muslims.


This interpretation is not from some random dude , but based on a consensus understanding of authorities on religion,

-- Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:59 am --

desertdudeshj wrote:Thats only in the case of adultery Zubs which has to be seen by four witnesses, a catch 22 situation, more a deterrent than a viable punishment and lets not take Iran as an example of anything Islamic because its not. And no love outside of Islam is not OK.

True , i was emphasizing the point about intimate relations outside the bounds of marriage

I really wanna say that tradition ARE NOT OUR RELIGON DON'T mix them together

there are some tradition that doesn't goes with ISLAM and some IGNOTANT PEOPLE that just happen to follow them but there's also some ppl that are AWARE of the differnce between the two

am gonna talk ABOUT ISLAM

IT IS NOT allowed for two genders (girls or boys) to have any sexual activities, BOTH OF THEM have to be virgins till they get married

am not saying that ALL MUSLIMS DO THAT, like christians they have NUNS and SLUTS we DON'T COME FROM A DIFFERENT PLANET YOU KNOW THAT RIGHT

zubber wrote:

brucebanner wrote:Are men allowed to have intercourse outside for marriage in Islam? The answer is yes. Regardless if it's outdated concept, It's still allowed. I don't think you understand what I wrote in my first post.

You are mistaken , intercourse outside the bounds of marriage , is classed as a major sin, punishable by death sentence ( i dont want to talk about legalities, lets leave it at that eh) Have you been following the news, are u aware why the woman in iran is getting stoned ?

You bring up a case of a woman despite me saying in my original post that it specifically applies to a man only. What was the point?

zubber wrote:The slave woman or concubine concept doesnt not exist in todays world, it is out of context, have you ever heard of any body buying "slave women" these days ? It is not valid in today's times, Those laws are applied in a variety of ways , and is restricted to a body who makes its proper interpretations. You and I or other layman are not allowed to draw our OWN interpretations, Which itself is an illegal act.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... 9503544596 - This is an explanation of the classification of the "female slave"

Concerning having slave women, we would like to let you know that it happens to be a practice necessitated by the condition in which early Muslims found themselves vis-a-vis non-Muslims, as both parties engaged in wars. Slave women or milk al-yameen are referred to in the Qur'an as “Those whom your right hand possess” or “ma malakat aymanukum”; they are those taken as captives during conquests and subsequently became slaves, or those who were descendants of slaves.

Thus, it was a war custom in the past to take men and women as captives and then turn them into slaves. Islam did not initiate it, rather, it was something in practice long ago before the advent of Islam. And when Islam came, it tried to eradicate this practice, bit by bit. So it first restricted it to the reciprocal practice of war, in the sense that Muslims took war captives just as the enemies did with Muslims.

It doesn't matter if slave women exist or not. My point was that it's allowed for a man to have intercourse with a slave girl outside of marriage. I'm starting to think you're a bit slow.

Second, are you saying the webpage I quoted isn't authoritative?

^^ My point is that at the current moment in time is that all intimate relationships outside the bounds of marriage are illegal. NO men cannot have sexual relations outside marriage under any circumstance. Are you able to comprehend this simple point ?

brucebanner wrote:http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/10382
Ruling on having intercourse with a slave woman when one has a wife
Paraphrasing ... Yes

And

Whoever regards that as haraam is a sinner who is going against the consensus of the scholars.

So it's a known fact.

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/20802
Paraphrasing ... Allaah has permitted intimacy with a slave woman if the man owns her.

Please stop already.

So does that explain some men thinking it is okay to be se.x.ually inappropriate with their housemaid then?

-- Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:57 am --

What about temporary wives?

kanelli wrote:So does that explain some men thinking it is okay to be se.x.ually inappropriate with their housemaid then?

Adherence to religious code is a completely different issue, even if the code exists. These cases of molestation occur due to other reasons , which is not limited to the utter neglect of the religious law, the complete lack of its knowledge, and the inability to exercise self restraint.

-- Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:01 am --

kanelli wrote:What about temporary wives?

Temporary wives are a violation of the sharia, In plain english it is not sanctioned by the sharia under normal circumstances ( it occurs in only specific sects, that too without proper justification)

The fact that a man is permitted to have intercourse with concubines (which were war slaves) only shows me that Allah is just to women. Think about this; concubine would spend their whole lives enslaved. They would not be permitted to socialize. They would be deprived of any sexual interactions. Thus, God permitted intercourse between the concubines and their owners on the condition that the owners would take care of the children. In that scenario, there is more benefit to the concubine than the owner. That was at a time where war slaves existed. Aside from that one exception, intercourse outside marriage is forbidden without negotiation.

F.Y.I. Slaves in the Muslim religion are to be treated well. No abuse, harm, or injustice is permitted towards them.

Wow, how lucky for women to enslaved but spared a life of no se.x. and an opportunity to give birth to children because of no contraception - err make gorgeous babies with their benevolent owner. Just? Give me a break.

^^ the problem you pose was not a concern during that time, your concerns are more valid in this time, which is a time period in which concubines are not part of society ( concubine shouldnt be confused with the "pr0stitute" which is a commercial entity, the closest thing to the concubine in todays age is the japanese geisha's)

kanelli wrote:Wow, how lucky for women to enslaved but spared a life of no se.x. and an opportunity to give birth to children because of no contraception - err make gorgeous babies with their benevolent owner. Just? Give me a break.

You just completely threw the topic off track with your statement. War slaves were unavoidable at the time. And as opposed to Christians, Jews, and other religions that would beat and abuse the war slaves and concubines, the Muslims had to treat them well and take care of the children that were the result of intercourse. I don't think it could have been anymore fair than that. What you said shows ignorance in my opinion.