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Koran 3:151 - We will cast into the hearts of the unbelievers terror, for that they have associated with God that for which He sent down never authority; their lodging shall be the Fire; evil is the lodging of the evildoers.

On another thread, a member suggested that the vast majority of Muslims reject terrorism.

Given the amount of terrorism carried out in the name of Islam, the popularity of terrorists in both the Muslim world and Muslim communities in the West and the global Jihadist movement, I decided to research the claim that terrorism is unreservedly condemned in the Muslim world.

From initial research, I did find that recent polls in the Muslim world did indeed show 'low' (typically in the 20-40% range) support for terrorism or terrorists. However, the polls and articles accompanying them all mentioned that the current figures show that support for terrorism was in the decline.

'The decline?' I asked. Upon further research I noticed that in previous years, support for suicide bombings, attacks against non-Muslim civilians and the terrorist group al-Qaeda was actually higher. I also found that in certain countries, support for terrorism/suicide bombings/al-Qaeda dipped more than in others. I wondered if these current figures were what I would have expected, since, for instance, Pakistanis rejected suicide bombings more than Indonesians according to a 2009 poll.

Are Pakistanis known worldwide for their moderation, modernism and tolerance or is Indonesia generally one of two Muslim countries that is generally described in that manner? So why, according to the poll, are Pakistanis less embracing of the Taliban and al-Qaeda than moderate, modernized and tolerant Indonesia, especially since other polls show that Pakistanis are more in favor of killing apostates and stoning?

In short, the modern polls didn't pass the 'smell' test. There must be some obvious explanation for all of this.

Alas, I think there is. What I noticed, and what most articles will not say, is that Pakistanis began opposing al-Qaeda, the Taliban and suicide bombings shortly after their country was hit by waves of suicide bombings and other forms of terrorism starting in 2006 or so.

So, in this thread, to get an accurate pulse on Muslim support for terrorism, I will be using polls taken before 2005 and preferably in 2002. To use polls from 2008 or 2007 would be disingenuous. Muslims asked if they support suicide bombings will of course be less likely to say they are if their community or country or even a neighboring Muslim country was hit by Muslim suicide bombers.

From Palestine, in 2003, a poll amongst Palestinians show a majority support attacks against Israeli civilians. According to the results, 60.2% of Palestinians are in favor of terrorist attacks inside of Israel.

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=18148

Another survey conducted amongst Palestinians found that the clear majority of Pal-Arabs support suicide bombings against Israelis and a majority support attacks against Israel after the formation of a Palestinian state.

http://www.likud.nl/extr291.html

This poll of Palestinians reveals the vast majority (73%) support suicide bomb attacks in the US.

A few other polls from Palestinians to consider:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/poll-majori ... e-1.192576

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/world ... ref=slogin

In the Muslim world in general, we find strong support for suicide bombings and positive views towards Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda and the Taliban.


A strong minority of Muslims support suicide bombings at non-Muslim civilians - to 'defend' Islam



http://people-press.org/report/165/what ... ks-in-2002

Here, from 2004, we find that terrorist leader Osama bin Laden enjoys rock star popularity in Muslim countries, except for Turkey:



http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=796

Another poll, this one from Egypt, shows that by a 3:1 ratio, Egyptians expressed admiration for the 9/11 hijackers to Egyptians who were angered by the hijackers. Certainly no indication that a majority of citizens from the largest Arab country abhorred the terror attacks

http://web.archive.org/web/200209162006 ... 3/sc41.htm

While not directly tied to terrorism, a poll in Indonesia showed 40% of Indonesians would use violence against those who blaspheme Islam and another 43% are ready to use force against 'threatening' non-Muslim groups:

The survey, conducted from 2001 to March 2006, found 43.5 percent of respondents were ready to wage war on threatening non-Muslim groups, 40 percent would use violence against those blaspheming Islam and 14.7 percent would tear down churches without official permits.

http://web.archive.org/web/200608221907 ... 060728.@03

To me, it becomes clear that strong minorities and even majorities of Muslims identify with terrorists and support terrorism directed against non-Muslim civilians.

The polls showed that Muslims were *more* likely to support terrorism or al-Qaeda than they were to oppose terrorism directed against civilians or hold an unfavorable view of Osama bin Laden, etc.

In conclusion, the claim that an overwhelming majority of Muslims oppose terrorism needs to be viewed with skepticism and those making these claims need to provide reasonable evidence to support their statements.

From Palestine, in 2003, a poll amongst Palestinians show a majority support attacks against Israeli civilians. According to the results, 60.2% of Palestinians are in favor of terrorist attacks inside of Israel.

Well of course they would!! Their country is in the worst of conditions because of the Israeli government. Sure, the people may not be to blame in some people's opinion, but the the Palestinian civilian suffer every single day. The least they can do is support the one method they have of fending off their invaders.

Muslims asked if they support suicide bombings will of course be less likely to say they are if their community or country or even a neighboring Muslim country was hit by Muslim suicide bombers.

Are you serious? You really think they would say otherwise? When people experience a suicide bombing near them, they will truly understand it's effect, and opinions will definitely change. You can't disregard their change of heart about the topic just because it happened near them.

So, in this thread, to get an accurate pulse on Muslim support for terrorism, I will be using polls taken before 2005 and preferably in 2002. To use polls from 2008 or 2007 would be disingenuous.

Times change my friend, and with it so do the people. The fact that people are supporting these bombings less and less as the years pass shouldn't be swept aside because it's "disingenuous"!! It should be applauded and spread! The Middle Eastern people, especially Muslims, have been stepped on by the American and Israeli government for decades, if not centuries. Many of our leaders have sold themselves and their countries, and care not about their people. The wounds and scars caused and left by the U.S. and Israeli Militaries have not healed nor faded to this day. So it is understandable that it would take some time for the hate and rage of the Muslim world to settle.


Visit Lebanon sometime. Look at the the bullet-holes that decorate countless buildings. Look at the run-down streets. See the destroyed landmarks. Read the lists of people imprisoned and killed by the Israeli invasions. See the sad state of what used to be called the "Switzerland of the Middle-East" is in now. Then you'll begin to understand why many may support the suicide bombings.

And another thing. Instead of taking all this time to talk about how the Muslims support terrorism, why don't you look at the real, large-scale terrorism that is taking place everyday by the U.S. government. Where the the WMDs they invaded Iraq for? How much profit is being made by the U.S. government from heroine production in Pakistan? Is that how they fight the Taliban? The soldiers that fight in the name of the U.S. don't even understand why they do. Most of those stationed in Pakistan are spending their time getting high of hashish. Is it not terrorism to send so many young and innocent people to fight and die for their own political agenda? Why not make a thread about that?

In 2006, the Lebanese president, Rafik Hariri was assassinated. During that time, he was working with the Syrian president on a peace pact, to end the 20 year occupation of the Syrian army. He was also working to make Lebanon rise up to it great potential. That same year, Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers, and asked for the release of a few Lebanese people who have been in Israeli prison for decades. Do you know what the Israeli government did? The waged a war. They destroyed every single bridge in Lebanon, and killed many innocent civilians. Those bridges took years to rebuild, but only a second to destroy. Do you find that fair?

So please, next time you want to blame Muslims for supporting terrorism, look at what brought them to do so first. We have suffered enough, and some more than others. I personally do no support any terrorist acts, but I understand why many would.

P.S.

Koran 3:151 - We will cast into the hearts of the unbelievers terror, for that they have associated with God that for which He sent down never authority; their lodging shall be the Fire; evil is the lodging of the evildoers.

This is one line, or 'aya', from a surah of 200. It is out of context on its own, but as it is, it still doesn't imply terrorism. This is why:

Firstly, 'terrorism' is a modern term linked to violent actions. In the days when the Qur'an was sent down, the word 'terror' simply meant 'fear'. The 'fire' is 'hel'l', not literal fire caused by man. Just so you know, the next aya that follows in that surah is :

And Allah did indeed fulfil His Promise to you when you were killing them (your enemy) with His Permission; until (the moment) you lost your courage and fell to disputing about the order, and disobeyed after He showed you (of the booty) which you love. Among you are some that desire this world and some that desire the Hereafter. Then He made you flee from them (your enemy), that He might test you. But surely, He forgave you, and Allah is Most Gracious to the believers.

Try to avoid being so biased next time, and research better before making such blatant accusations. The Qur'an does not condone killing in the manner you think.

Peace.

Icenic wrote:Their country is in the worst of conditions because of the Israeli government.

Palestinian economy is actually booming. Take a drive around Ramallah and you can think you are in Beverly Hills.

Icenic wrote:The least they can do is support the one method they have of fending off their invaders.

The least they can do is not fighting and killing each other.

Icenic wrote:Then you'll begin to understand why many may support the suicide bombings.

Those who understand suicide bombings in busses, restaurants and during weddings are very sick people imo.

Icenic wrote:The Qur'an does not condone killing in the manner you think.

Hamas video: Allah, kill Christians and Jews "to the last one"

A video on official Hamas TV calls for Allah to kill Jews, Christians, Communists and their supporters. The video asks Allah to "count them and kill them to the last one, and don't leave even one."

Palestinian economy is actually booming. Take a drive around Ramallah and you can think you are in Beverly Hills.

Does this look like Beverly Hills to you?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Ramallah_Residential.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n7RltmTdk-g/TG13CWKtSQI/AAAAAAAAVUc/qhU43WOobf4/s1600/Ramallah.gif
http://en.loadtr.com/Ramallah-437599.htm

The least they can do is not fighting and killing each other.

Every single country in the world has inner conflict. In Holland, the people of Rotterdam and the people of Amsterdam hate each other. If a war is to break out there (God forbid), they WILL kill one another.

Those who understand suicide bombings in busses, restaurants and during weddings are very sick people imo.

Many of those who join the suicide bombers have lost almost everything, and the Jihadist leaders have taken them under their wing and brainwashed them into "dying for a cause". When one has lost their mother, father, and younger brother, they will be blinded by vengeance, and thus easily manipulated. THAT is what I can understand. I'm not excusing them, but I understand why they end up there.

Hamas video: Allah, kill Christians and Jews "to the last one"

That is a prayer by Hamas. It means nothing, and has absolutely no link to the Qur'an. It is pointless to show me this as it represents nothing that is holy. Just the prayers of a group of "terrorists", "Jihadists", or whatever you may consider them.


FD, why, out of all that I wrote, did you pick 4 points and comment on them with one liners? I understand I am young, and you may be skeptical of my wisdom or knowledge, but please, don't patronize me. This is a much deeper issue than the four points you chose to make remarks on. You have done this one more than one of my posts, and I really don't appreciate it. If you're going to comment, I only ask you to dig a little deeper. Yes I'm 22, but the things I have been through in life, and the things I have seen, many will never experience, and I hope they don't. Please stop treating me like a child. I know what I am talking about. I have been readin and researching and educating myself as much as I can for a few years now. I have never been the type to be silly and do silly things. I don't mind being proven wrong, on the contrary, I love it, because only when I am proven wrong do I really learn. So please, if you're going to take a whack at it, the least you can do is educate me, not just make small statements based on your own opinion. I mean no offense to you in any way, and if what I wrote was a little aggressive, please excuse me. I have been looked down upon by my elders for so long simply because of my age, and it is starting to get to me.

P.S. If any Mods find anything "flaggable" in what I wrote, I sincerely apologize, it was not my intention.

Peace. And when I say "peace" I don't mean it in the "gangster" sense of the word, I mean peace be upon your soul, or peace to all.

The fact that people are supporting these bombings less and less as the years pass shouldn't be swept aside because it's "disingenuous"!!

It would be disingenuous If the only reason that support is dropping because Muslims are on the receiving end of their own fanatics.

It should be applauded and spread!

Ok, Muslims have temporarily distanced themselves from al-Qaeda because they've been bombed by al-Qaeda like groups but were fanboys for al-Qaeda when they were bombing non-Muslim civilians.

I'll be sure to applaud that.

The Middle Eastern people, especially Muslims, have been stepped on

Really? How have Muslims been especially stepped on?

by the American and Israeli government for decades, if not centuries.

Back when Israel and America were founded in the fifteenth century, perhaps?

Many of our leaders have sold themselves and their countries, and care not about their people.

You get the government you deserve.

The wounds and scars caused and left by the U.S. and Israeli Militaries have not healed nor faded to this day.

What would those be? Because, you know, the people of Pakistan have been bombed by the Israeli military in recent memory.

Visit Lebanon sometime.

Well, actually Lebanon has seen declining support for suicide terrorism even after Israel's invasion. I guess that blows your thesis out of the water.

See the destroyed landmarks. Read the lists of people imprisoned and killed by the Israeli invasions.

Because the Ivory Coast, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Nigeria are Lebanon.

Then you'll begin to understand why many may support the suicide bombings

.
Should I take tours of the aforementioned countries to 'understand' why Muslims there would support suicide bombings against non-Muslim civilians?

Then you'll begin to understand why many may support the suicide bombings.

And yet, support for suicide bombings has still dropped in Lebanon, even after the recent war with Israel.

How much profit is being made by the U.S. government from heroine production in Pakistan?

Addicts need their fix.

Rafik Hariri was assassinated. During that time, he was working with the Syrian president on a peace pact, to end the 20 year occupation of the Syrian army.

He was assassinated by a suicide bomber and it was one political killing out of many in Lebanon of journalists or politicians who were critical of Syria that would follow.

It would be disingenuous If the only reason that support is dropping because Muslims are on the receiving end of their own fanatics.

Well how can you be sure that THAT is the only reason? Today's generation is not the same as that of 2002, so people will definitely think differently. It is one of the reasons, yes, but it is not the only one. You also have to remember that the religious extremist groups in the Muslim world have influenced the areas around them, and brainwashed people into taking up their cause.

Ok, Muslims have temporarily distanced themselves from al-Qaeda because they've been bombed by al-Qaeda like groups but were fanboys for al-Qaeda when they were bombing non-Muslim civilians.

A few years in not temporary. Muslims have realized that Al-Qaeda's agenda is not what they thought it would be, perhaps. Also, there were a few cases where shoot-ups that were claimed to be done by Al-Qaeda turned out to be done by non-Muslim men who wore veils or turbans as a disguise. Just because the media says it's a Muslim terrorist act doesn't prove anything. The media is biased and false in many areas, especially because much of the news must be government-approved before it is aired.

Really? How have Muslims been especially stepped on?

The Arab world was one of the most powerful regions in the past, and today it's considered the scum of the Earth. Those countries that have given in to American/Israeli governments are the ones who thrive today. Saudi Arabia, U.A.E., Bahrain, Jordan, Egypt, etc. Those who haven't, and still reject and external government's interference, are still suffering today. Is that coincidence to you? Or you're probably going to tell me that they should, and I don't believe they should. The U.S. and the Israeli governments have a plan for the Middle-East, a NEW Middle-East, which does not consist of good things for the Muslims.

Back when Israel and America were founded in the fifteenth century, perhaps?

Well it did not happen overnight. Israel never existed to begin with, and slowly they began invading Palestine, and today they have most of it. No one seems to care what inhumane actions the Israeli Military undertakes, and prefer pointing fingers at the Muslims for supporting suicide bombings.

Well, actually Lebanon has seen declining support for suicide terrorism even after Israel's invasion. I guess that blows your thesis out of the water.

You said you weren't going to consider today's polls, so I replied on those terms. That just does to show you that you will use them when they benefit your arguments, and reject them when they benefit mine.

You get the government you deserve.

That is very harsh of you to say. No one deserves an uncaring government. And why do we deserve that?

What would those be? Because, you know, the people of Pakistan have been bombed by the Israeli military in recent memory.

You see, more of your biased picking. Yes, Pakistan was attacked recently, but a mosque was destroyed. Any Muslim who destroys a mosque is no Muslim at all. Yes, these faction CLAIM to be doing this in the name of Allah and Islam, but that does not mean that Allah will support them, and it does not mean that the Muslims support them. And before that bombing, how many American missiles have destroyed entire areas in Pakistan? What about the biggest scar in the Middle-East, Palestine? Or are these not taken into your consideration because they are also "disingenuous"?

Because the Ivory Coast, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Nigeria are Lebanon.

I don't understand what you mean here, but I was giving Lebanon as one example, and I used it because I grew up there, and I've seen what I've mentioned.

Should I take tours of the aforementioned countries to 'understand' why Muslims there would support suicide bombings against non-Muslim civilians?

What is the matter with you? Why do you look at it in such a shallow way? People whose country has been attacked by a military force, and who have seen many innocents die, will be blinded by hate, rage, and vengeance. They will wish the same upon the country that attacked them, and will most likely applaud a suicide bombing there.

And yet, support for suicide bombings has still dropped in Lebanon, even after the recent war with Israel.

Once again, you suddenly take into consideration more modern polls. I know that they are declining, and I'm the one that applauded that whereas you dismissed it.

Addicts need their fix.

That is really shallow of you. The U.S. government is now producing heroine, and selling it. 90% of the world's heroine is being produced there. In other words if the U.S. stopped the production of heroine, we may see a major decline in the number of users. Just because there's big market for opium doesn't make it alright to join it. The U.S. government wages anti-drug wars all the time, and then when nobody is looking they spread the drugs. Don't be naive man.

e was assassinated by a suicide bomber and it was one political killing out of many in Lebanon of journalists or politicians who were critical of Syria that would follow.

Did you even research any of that before you wrote it? Suicide bomber? Where did you get that from? It was NOT a suicide bomber. It was a very intricate underground tunnel that was dug and had a couple hundred kilos worth of bombs in it. Get your facts straight. And the other members who were also killed were killed either through shoot-ups, or rigged cars.


Let me ask you something. Why are you so intent on proving that Muslims support terrorism? I believe that they don't, because I have been living in the Middle-East ever since I was born, and have never seen the support for suicide bombings in the way that you describe. You may have polls that say otherwise, but what makes you so sure that these polls are true? Who will correct them if they aren't? You have a bunch of numbers, whereas I have the everyday experience and face-to-face talk with so many Muslims. I won't lie, there are those who applaud the death of American and Israeli soldiers, but never the death of innocent civilians. I disproved your thesis that the Qur'an condones killing, and therefore those who bomb in the name of the Qur'an are not true Muslims, nor do I believe they care about the Qur'an.

You seem to be very influenced by the media and the news. Let me tell you something. The news you see on T.V. is biased. It shows non-stop negativity, and continuously hacks at the Muslim people. All news is biased, and we all know that. Before you blindly accept what you hear, question it. Just because they say that a suicide bombing by Al-Qaeda was made, doesn't mean it was them. How do they know it was Al-Qaeda? What do they base it on? There is rarely any proof of that.

One more thing. Al Qaeda is a C.I.A. created enemy. The U.S. government alongside the Israeli government needs an enemy to instill fear in their people and receive undying support for when they want to invade a country. Where are the WMDs of Iraq? They invaded Iraq, destroyed much of it, and are still there to this day, all on the claims of WMDs. So where are they? Why does no one question that? Is that no terrorism? Or does the fact that they wear uniforms and badges make it ok? Osama Bin Laden is another fraudulent enemy that the U.S. has created. The Bin Laden family is a well know one, and a very rich one as well. Do you really expect me to believe that the U.S. was able to find Saddam Hussein, who was a master at using doubles of himself, and to this day are unable to find Osama?

Here's a link for you to read :
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7718

You seem to be very influenced by the media and the news. Let me tell you something. The news you see on T.V. is biased. It shows non-stop negativity, and continuously hacks at the Muslim people. All news is biased, and we all know that. Before you blindly accept what you hear, question it.

I’ll just pop in to back this statement of yours with evidence...It’s not just the muslims it’s about anything they can lay their hands on...

http://www.monthlyreview.org/1199petr.htm

http://danwismar.com/uploads/Bernstein% ... 0Media.htm

I guess this is what we call destructive imperialism, therefore colonialism and I am one of those believers that when it comes to secure anything gained through expanding imperialism, it is pretty legitimate to use any method possible to back it up further, in order to linger/avoid falling apart or a total collapse...There is no difference between loosing a few thousand/million local nationals through a declared physical war abroad or to get those same locals killed through such an arranged terrorist plain crashes on your own land..

If you are the one stronger militarily, financially, economicly than you define the method of the game depending on the circumstances, using the political/religious nationals of a targeted state or a region is enough to start psychological war for a quick effect (which is what one would expect if the manipulation is gonna come from highly advanced, internally highly democratic state in order to win the national public support) so as to achieve assessed agenda on foreign lands to start invasions and manipulation on foreign politics/politicians/public in such targeted countries or the region.

I have completly lost my trust to literally written history and events presented by the western world.. I am looking forward to more and more political confidential/ secret files/archives being leaked to public to shed light for the truth behind all the lies we are made of gullible..

Very enlightening posts Icenic - you show a lot of maturity for someone of your age. It is a pleasure to read your first hand insights.

I'm sure eh will be grateful that you are correcting many of his misconceptions (not least the factual bits of news he gets wrong - such as Hariri being killed by a suicide bomber).

Whether he'll listen and acknowledge the error of his ways is another matter. Those that think JihadWatch and Fox News provide credible and unbiased news stories have a distorted view of the world that bears very little resemblance to reality and relies on deliberate misinterpretations of texts and malicious spins of news stories.

Just be aware of being drawn into a troll baiting session with your young American counterpart, and also take note that this thread is a typical reaction to the thread about Muslims opposed to Terrorism, and the fact that Islamophobes refuse to acknowledge the reality of the many examples given in that thread of Muslims actively opposing terrorism by Muslims. Rather than tackle the reality, the myth they believe in is just repeated in a different thread. That speaks volumes.

Cheers,
Shafique

Muslims have realized that Al-Qaeda's agenda is not what they thought it would be, perhaps.

Yes, that’s what I totally agree with you on.

Past surveys show Muslims were very happy with al-Qaeda following the mass killing of Americans in the 2002 poll but popularity for al-Qaeda began to drop following the carnage of the Iraq war and Islamist attacks in Muslim countries around the world – Morocco, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, Jordan and a dozen other Muslim countries that I could list.

The polls cited in the OP prove that al-Qaeda was very popular when Muslims thought al-Qaeda would only target non-Muslims. I think this was al-Qaeda and co. biggest mistake in the past decade. Many Muslim critics of al-Qaeda began to openly challenge al-Qaeda’s tactics in bombing Muslim nations but having never attacked Israel.

I don’t think that Muslims who are upset with al-Qaeda because they’re killing Muslims but not Westerners signals a shift in attitude towards supporting terrorism and extremist groups, do you?

Also, there were a few cases where shoot-ups that were claimed to be done by Al-Qaeda turned out to be done by non-Muslim men who wore veils or turbans as a disguise.

Which shoot-ups do you have in mind? Many Muslims believe Blackwater/Mossad/CIA are behind a number of bombings in the Muslim world but the sheer volume of terrorist attacks, especially ones al-Qaeda and affiliates have claimed responsibility for makes it difficult to pin all the blame on non-Muslims.

But it does look good for al-Qaeda if many Muslims, such as you, are adamant that al-Qaeda is falsely blamed for at least some attacks attributed to them. This goes back to what I was previously saying, given enough time, outsiders, particularly the Zionists, will be blamed for a number of attacks currently blamed on Islamists by Muslims.

Just because the media says it's a Muslim terrorist act doesn't prove anything.

Well, in all fairness, al-Qaeda does blame some bomb attacks on non-Muslims. There was a bombing earlier this year in a Pakistani market that killed over a hundred civilians, mostly women and children. An audiotape afterwards from al-Qaeda put the blame on Xe (Blackwater) and may also have said the Zionists were behind the attack. I personally believe most Muslims, especially Pakistanis, believed al-Qaeda that non-Muslims were responsible for the attack, but nonetheless, there are many other attacks that kill scores of Muslims in Pakistan that blamed on them. I think, perhaps, Muslims are able to find others to blame for most of these attacks, so your views are certainly welcome news to the ears of any al-Qaeda leader.

The Arab world was one of the most powerful regions in the past, and today it's considered the scum of the Earth.

That is definitely a powerful thought to consider. Do you think Israel was behind the decline of past Islamic/Arab empires so they could establish their own non-Muslim/non-Arab state in the center of the Arab world?

The U.S. and the Israeli governments have a plan for the Middle-East, a NEW Middle-East, which does not consist of good things for the Muslims.

It’s true that Iraq, an Arab nation, is effectively controlled by Persian Iran following the US invasion. The Egyptians, Palestinians and Lebanese all seem worried about Shia proselytization too, arresting people they say are funded by the Iranian government.

Hamas has recently clarified that they only take money from Iran but will not allow Iranians to do missionary work in Gaza and an Egyptian scholar, Yusuf al-Qaradawi has issued several fatwas against Shia from spreading their views in Sunni nations. It does appear that Muslims are willing to accept that the Iranians are seeking to control or dominate their countries and populist figures in the Arab/Muslim world have to issue statements on a zero tolerance policy when it comes to any perceived Iranian influence in their regions.

Israel never existed to begin with, and slowly they began invading Palestine, and today they have most of it.

Some say Israel’s ultimate plan is to take control from the Nile to the Euphrates. If that were to happen, many Muslims would be in serious peril, especially those who fight for Muslim rights and the establishment of Islamic law.

That is very harsh of you to say. No one deserves an uncaring government. And why do we deserve that?

Well, let’s look at this logically. All governments are populist to some extent or another. If the vast majority of a population is against free speech, such as criticizing prophet Muhammad, is the government going to legalize speech the citizens find or offensive, or will they harshly punish anyone for such speech?

And before that bombing, how many American missiles have destroyed entire areas in Pakistan?

But the poll from 2002 showed Pakistanis had higher favorable ratings (65% favorable to 9% unfavorable) before the Iraq war and any drone attacks in their country – which only began around 2005/2006 or so.

What about the biggest scar in the Middle-East, Palestine?

Pakistan, Bangladesh, Mali and Nigeria are not part of the middle east, but Muslim populations in these countries supported suicide operations directed against non-Muslim civilians.

They will wish the same upon the country that attacked them, and will most likely applaud a suicide bombing there.

So you’re saying Muslims would support suicide bombings inside Pakistan, Iraq and Sudan because these countries have killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims?

The U.S. government is now producing heroine, and selling it.

It doesn’t seem like they’re doing a very good job producing it.

Did you even research any of that before you wrote it? Suicide bomber? Where did you get that from? It was NOT a suicide bomber. It was a very intricate underground tunnel that was dug and had a couple hundred kilos worth of bombs in it. Get your facts straight. And the other members who were also killed were killed either through shoot-ups, or rigged cars.

All I’ve found on the Internet was that a suicide bomber killed him. Even the UN is saying a suicide bomber took him out. I couldn’t find any article claiming explosives in an underground tunnel killed him.

Why are you so intent on proving that Muslims support terrorism?

The same question could be directed to those who are intent on claiming that Muslims do not support terrorists/terrorism. If you recall, this thread was started in response to comments another member made. After doing my own research, I came to the conclusion that al-Qaeda receives widespread support in the Muslim world.

I believe that they don't, because I have been living in the Middle-East ever since I was born, and have never seen the support for suicide bombings in the way that you describe. You may have polls that say otherwise, but what makes you so sure that these polls are true? Who will correct them if they aren't?

I said the same to another member who cited surveys to show that 40% of Americans believe in Creationism. Having lived in the America, I had difficulty believe that figure. But again, the same member who’ll claim that one is ‘Islamophobic’ for citing polls from the Muslim world will probably still insist nearly half of Americans are Creationists.

How do they know it was Al-Qaeda? What do they base it on? There is rarely any proof of that.

We don’t, unfortunately. Al-Qaeda also denies they were behind a number of attacks the media pinned on them. They say Blackwater (Xe) or Mossad were behind the attacks and I think most Muslims are starting to believe them.

One more thing. Al Qaeda is a C.I.A. created enemy.

I don’t agree with that assessment. Many Muslims look up to al-Qaeda and are inspired by their actions and rhetoric. Have you ever listened to OBL for yourself?

Muslims on forums I posted on in the past told us that they heard nothing but pure Islam coming out of OBL. Perhaps you should look into what OBL says before you rush to condemn him? Do you not think fighting for the prophet and the Koran is a noble effort? Al-Qaeda are true freedom fighters because they are struggling to install Islamic law in Muslim majority lands and are fighting for Muslims worldwide.

Lastly, I ask you to follow what your own holy book, the Koran, says when a non-Muslim comes to you with information, especially regarding another Muslim. You are to verify from Muslims if the news you received is correct because non-Muslims will deceive Muslims – according to the Koran.

So, since you’ve insulted al-Qaeda and OBL, have you first followed what God tells you to do when you hear news of an al-Qaeda attack and such? Have you personally talked to al-Qaeda members to hear their side of the story?

I think you should read up on al-Qaeda from al-Qaeda members before you say anything more against this movement – which is fighting for Islamic law.

event horizon wrote:Muslims who have on forums I posted on in the past told us that they heard nothing but pure Islam coming out of OBL.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

event horizon wrote:Muslims who have on forums I posted on in the past told us that they heard nothing but pure Islam coming out of OBL.

Cheers,
Shafique

What does the Koran say about allegations against Muslims by non-Muslims?

Doesn't Allah tell you to think best about Muslims until those Muslims themselves can directly confirm or deny to you any allegation against them??

Perhaps you should love al-Qaeda and give them the benefit of the doubt that they aren't bombing Muslims until al-Qaeda comes to you directly to address the allegations against them?

WWMD?

As for my comment, I went back and corrected it - so thank you for quoting my grammatical mistake.

How do you know they are Shaf's friends ? You must share your inteligence sources with the swedish police, as at the moment they have no clue who is behind it, or as always its guilty by association and until proven innocent with your ilk ?

desertdudeshj wrote:How do you know they are Shaf's friends ? You must share your inteligence sources with the swedish police, as at the moment they have no clue who is behind it, or as always its guilty by association and until proven innocent with your ilk ?

Huh? To what are reacting???

A little post by Capsicum ( which was self deleted by him/her ?, shaf can also still see it ,so can I )who just saw the words car bomb and went and posted the link with a little quip. Probably later realised there is still no connection as of yet and deleted it.

2 car bomb terrorist attacks in Sweden linked to Islamists , that ' s how Shaf 's friends oppose to terrorism.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101211/ap_ ... explosions
I' d like to hear you condemn this vicious and coward attack by muslims just before Christmas.

So Shaf and his friends are supposed to be accountable for the Muslim terrorist who just blew himself up in Sweden? capsicum, when you meet a Catholic are on their case to do something about child molestation that has been going on for decades? What about the crazy Christians who have murdered doctors and blown up abortion clinics. Am I personally responsible for those, coming from a Christian background? Get a grip.

http://www.fifthestate.co.uk/2006/09/we ... nst-islam/

capsicum wrote:Is that a Merry Christmas from your friends who dont support terrorism Shafique?
...
I' d like to hear you condemn this vicious and coward attack by muslims just before Christmas.

capsiscum - the fact that you think a Muslim would NOT condemn this act of attempted terrorism speaks to your prejudices.

For the record, I unreservedly condemn this act of attempted terrorism and confirm that it is totally against Islam's teachings. My friends are the ones who are actively denouncing terrorism by Muslims (and other people too) and working against it.. Islamophobes refuse to accept the reality that Muslims condemn and work against the minority of Muslims who resort to terrorism.

Contrast that with our resident chief Islamophobe who has yet to condemn an act of religious terrorism carried out by an American born Jewish Terrorist Baruch Goldstein - you can search the thread for a clear condemnation of this religious terrorist (I have condemned him in the same terms as above), but you won't find it:
philosophy-dubai/for-baruch-goldstein-t37863.html

capsiscum - I invite you to join me in condemning all acts of terrorism, including Goldstein and these guy(s) in Sweden. If you condemn Goldstein unreservedly for being a religious terrorist (he killed worshippers in a mosque on the Jewish holiday of Purim and did so quite calmly and rationally, and his supporters think he was acting in accordance with the Jewish faith and that he is a hero) - then you will be setting a great example for
other Islamphobes to follow.

Do the right thing and condemn Goldstein and all other terrorists - you know you want to.

Cheers,
Shafique

Stockholm suicide bombing:
Shafique let s see how the investigation unfolds, but already it looks like your 0.4% only of terrorist attacks are from Muslims seems much harder to sustain.
Note: your condenmation mentions an "attempted" terrorist act: 2 persons were injured therefore we are way beyond just an "attempt", you should correct your post to show you do not have a biased opinion.

Herve, is it your insinuation that Islam is inherently a religion of terror? You don't think that there are other complex factors involved? Perhaps you should read the article linked in my post above.

herve wrote:Stockholm suicide bombing:
Shafique let s see how the investigation unfolds, but already it looks like your 0.4% only of terrorist attacks are from Muslims seems much harder to sustain.
Note: your condenmation mentions an "attempted" terrorist act: 2 persons were injured therefore we are way beyond just an "attempt", you should correct your post to show you do not have a biased opinion.

I'm just echoing the Swedish Foreign Minister's words that the terrorist attack failed. The fact that it was an attempted terrorist attack does not lessen the condemnation or the seriousness - but is a source of relief that it didn't kill as intended.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11977524

As for stats - fairs fair, we should indeed look to see what the updated Euro Pol statistics show for the proportion of Terrorist acts in the EU carried out by Muslims.

The EU stats included successful, failed and foiled attacks - so these two will surely be counted. In the stats quoted there were 5 attacks by Muslims and around 1500 total in that same period. So having 2 more in 2010 may indeed increase the % of terrorist acts carried out by Muslims - we'll have to see when the final figures for 2010 come in. Maybe it will reach the 6% we find in the USA? Who knows?

But it is very interesting to note the complete refusal to face facts - Muslims do indeed oppose terrorism and work against terrorists, but yet any act of terrorism by Muslims is seen as the fault of the religion.

As kanelli asked - do you guys blame Catholicism for paedophillia or believe that the majority of Paedophiles are Catholics?

Cheers,
Shafique

I never insinuated that, I only said, and quoted officials that the biggest terrorist threat is Islamic, with a majority of attacks or attempted attacks by Muslims perpetrators . Look Kanelli, those thugs kill in the name of Allah, ok, not praying Hail Mary , and do you think that a cartoon over Muhammad is a reason enough to kill? what do you think shafique
And shafique, as for the paedofil priests, they are prosecuted and the churches sued to the full extend of the law, and we do not manipulate reports or stats, misinform and twist around facts, like you do.

I also just quoted official statistics. We can compare and contrast beliefs with statistics - I think that is a valid way to check what someone tells you. Do you disagree?

As predicted, you don't blame Catholicism for crimes committed by Catholics - which is great. What is a shame is that you seem to want to blame Islam for crimes committed by Muslims. But I agree, there is no way a rational person would blame Jesus' teachings for Catholic priest's crimes against young boys.

Herve - can I ask you whether you blame Judaism for the religious act of terrorism that Baruch Goldstein carried out - he calmly killed a room-full of worshippers in a mosque in Hebron whilst in Uniform and did it on a Jewish holy day of Purim. He did this out of a religious conviction, not a political one - and his supporters still revere him today as a saint.

Would you agree that he was as misguided in his use of religion to slaughter Muslims as any Muslim who uses religion to slaughter non-Muslims?

I bring it up, just to make the point that all religions have been misused by a minority from within to justify acts of violence which the majority all believe go AGAINST the teachings of their religion.

Cheers,
Shafique

How could it possibly be 0.4% of attacks when the biggest terrorist threat is of Islamic origin (Wikipedia secret cable) How do you match 0.4% with BIGGEST
Of course I agree, any terrorist act must be condemned regardless of the religion of the perpetrator, catholic, jew or Muslim.
The only difference is that France expelled 51 Imams for their sedicious and hatefull teaching, fifty one !!!!, not 2 or 3, damn , how many priests were ever prosecuted or deported for the same, or may be for giving away free bibles, which constitutes a crime in Muslim countries.
We dont have the same values obviously

Herve - please don't ignore the question I asked you about Goldstein, I really would like to know what your views are.

As for the 0.4% this is from the Europoll official statistics.

Here is what the 2009 report says on pg7

Islamist terrorism is still perceived as being the biggest threat worldwide, despite the fact that the EU only faced one Islamist terrorist attack in 2008. This bomb attack took place in the UK…Separatist terrorism remains the terrorism area which affects the EU most. This includes Basque separatist terrorism in Spain and France, and Corsican terrorism in France…Past contacts between ETA and the FARC illustrate the fact that also separatist terrorist organizations seek cooperation partners outside the EU on the basis of common interests. In the UK, dissident Irish republican groups, principally the RIRA and the CIRA, and other paramilitary groups may continue to engage in crime and violence.

http://www.europol.europa.eu/publicatio ... AT2009.pdf

Perceptions vs Reality.

And this comment addresses this point:

Perception is not reality. Due to the right wing’s influence and propaganda, people mistakenly think that Islamic terrorism is the greatest threat to the Western world. It is even a commonly held belief that Islamic terrorism poses an existential threat–that the very survival of the Western world is at stake. Of course, the reality is that there are other groups that engage in terrorism on a much larger scale, yet these terrorist incidents are minimized. Acts of terrorism committed by Muslims are purposefully sensationalized and focused upon, culminating in the idea that “(nearly) all terrorists are Muslims.”

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/terrorism-in-europe/

Cheers,
Shafique

herve wrote:Of course I agree, any terrorist act must be condemned regardless of the religion of the perpetrator, catholic, jew or Muslim.

How do you think this is different from my belief?

herve wrote:The only difference is that France expelled 51 Imams for their sedicious and hatefull teaching, fifty one !!!!, not 2 or 3, damn , how many priests were ever prosecuted or deported for the same, or may be for giving away free bibles, which constitutes a crime in Muslim countries.
We dont have the same values obviously

So, France expelling 51 Imams makes Islam worse than Christianity? I don't follow.. please explain.

If you are using stats (numbers) please explain on what basis you are comparing Imams expelled in France with Christian priests in general (and presumably Catholic paedophile priests). Are you saying there are fewer than 51 Paedophile priests or what?


But, my specific question was whether you agree with me that Baruch Goldstein misused his religion to justify killing innocent worshippers and whether you similarly blame Judaism for this act, like you blame Islam for acts carried out by Muslim terrorists?

It is a simple question.

Cheers,
Shafique

Herve, where do you get the figure of 51 expelled Imams. Currently I can find mention of 21.

Are you surprised that in the current political climate, existing Israel-Palestine issue, immigration, soci-economic issues, wars in Islamic lands etc, that extremist Muslim terrorism wouldn't be more common than in the past? Really, you do seem to be implying that Islam is a religion of terror, because I don't see you taking any of these factors into consideration, or the history of religious terrorism across many religions including Islam.

Of course no one should be killing because of Mohammad cartoons, but that is according to our Western more secular sensibilities. The Mohammad cartoons can instigate stronger reactions from disenfranchised Muslims who feel like their religion is being attacked and they are being persecuted in the countries they are living in. Imaging young people who may not be able to afford to study, or have studied but find it difficult to get a job (especially because of their religious or ethnic background). You keep seeing and hearing the majority around you complaining about Muslims and how dangerous they are for "their" society. If you haven't got anything better to do sitting unemployed at home, maybe these radical causes would start to seem appealing and give a sense of belonging and purpose.

Here's an interesting article on differences between France and the UK when dealing with radical Islamist terrorism - http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2html/vie ... fisher.pdf

Once again, the media's influence is obvious. I'm glad that Herve made the mistake of saying 51 rather than 21 because that just proves how the media's influence is working; they exaggerate facts so much that we begin doing so ourselves.

As for Islam being the largest threat, this is debatable. Just a quick note:

A look through history would show that the largest and most dangerous groups/peoples have not been Islam. Since 9/11 has not been proven beyond any doubt to have been by Islamic terrorist, Al Qaeda, or any other Muslims, I will not consider it. We have had Julius Caesar and the Romans, Hannibal, Hitler and the Nazis, the KKK, Al Qaeda, and Taliban. There are many others, but I'm just giving a general example. All the aforementioned groups/people have slaughtered innocents, but sadly, only two are directly linked to their religion. Yes, Al Qaeda and Taliban claim to kill in the name of Allah, but that does not mean that it complies with the Qur'an. Do you think the the majority of Muslims would really support them? They are giving us all a bad name, and giving people like you reasons to belittle us. They are distorting the image of our pure and beautifully simple religion. They do the Islamic world no good whatsoever, and if you think that Muslims support them, then you are mistaken. Maybe they have the support of the poverty-ridden, uneducated Muslims who have nothing in life, and are educated only by biased Sheikhs and Imams. I have yet to meet an educated Muslim, not necessarily educated in the sense of Maths and Physics, but educated in the studies of the Qur'an, who supports these disgus-ting acts of terrorism.

Like I said before, I believe that Al Qaeda is a CIA-created enemy, placed to destroy the image of the Muslim people, and thus inviting more and more reasons to eradicate them. The media's bias towards Islam supports this, and whether you do or do not believe it, the fact that Al Qaeda has brought absolutely no good to the Muslim world raises a certain degree of suspicion.

About the Mohammad cartoon. The Muslim religion considers it blasphemous to try and illustrate the image of its prophet. That is the way it is. There should be no debate about whether or not this is right. It is the way it is. Just as we are not meant to eat pork and drink alcohol. I think it was terrorism to knowingly publish the cartoon of Mohammad. Why could that not be avoided? It is obviously a purposeful attack on the Muslims. Yes, maybe some over-reacted to it, but what do you expect? The drawing of Mohammad does not only defy our religion, but it also depicts a great insult. Why can our religion not be respected? Why did no Christian or Jew attack the artist for disrespecting the Muslim religion? What happened to being tolerant? Or does that not count in this scenario because "it was just a drawing"?

At the end, those who believe Muslims are violent by nature will never believe otherwise because are inherently biased about the subject, as are those who believe that Muslims generally support terrorism. I tell you this:

Muslims are sick of the image that they have been portrayed by. We are people with families, living to provide for them just as everyone else is. We live, we enjoy life, we go out, we have fun, and through all that we respect our religion and its rules. There are many who misunderstand the religion and thus do wrong unto themselves and others, and they will be punished by God. All religion are misunderstood and thus abused by many, so to single out one is ignorance.

Peace

Sorry, my mistake kanelli and icenic, it is not 51, it is ...........54 , Imams who were expelled. And 12 more awaiting expulsion. And it was not in the media, it was between professionals and diplomats involved in counter terrorism on a secret conversation. You are both all wrong......
Secret cable Wikileaks
http://wikileaks.ch/cable/2006/11/06PARIS7579.html

shafique wrote:

herve wrote:The only difference is that France expelled 51 Imams for their sedicious and hatefull teaching, fifty one !!!!, not 2 or 3, damn , how many priests were ever prosecuted or deported for the same, or may be for giving away free bibles, which constitutes a crime in Muslim countries.
We dont have the same values obviously

So, France expelling 51 Imams makes Islam worse than Christianity? I don't follow.. please explain.

If you are using stats (numbers) please explain on what basis you are comparing Imams expelled in France with Christian priests in general (and presumably Catholic paedophile priests). Are you saying there are fewer than 51 Paedophile priests or what?

Herve, still waiting for your explanation. 51 or 54? Either way - please give us the reference so we can check.

In 2010 France expelled about 1000 Roma people - so I guess you'd be very embarrassed to give us to total number of people France expelled and compare that with the numbers expelled for being extremist preachers. But I'm curious - what is the percentage?

(You still haven't given us a good explanation how you can list terrorist acts in the USA in 2010 and leave out a pipe bomb that exploded in Florida and include a bomb that didn't explode in NY)

Also, don't forget to answer this one too:

shafique wrote:But, my specific question was whether you agree with me that Baruch Goldstein misused his religion to justify killing innocent worshippers and whether you similarly blame Judaism for this act, like you blame Islam for acts carried out by Muslim terrorists?

It is a simple question.

Waiting patiently.

Cheers,
Shafique