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This is one question that has had made it almost impossible to have faith in God's existence:

Since God is omnipotent, it means that he knows where every person is going to end up (heaven or hell). I'm not denying that he gives us the freedom of choice, I'm just saying that he knows what choices will be made before we are even created/born. So why would he let a man who he know is going to end up in hell enter the world? I find that to be a very cruel action; to let a man live knowing he will end up in hell. Your thoughts?

Think of it this way.

If God had created all living creatures with the goal that we don't suffer at all - we might as well all be single-cell bacteria livinging a warm soup that provides for all our needs and we could all live for ever in a state where there is no pain, no discomfort.

Giving a creation the capacity to choose would be meaningless if the choices did not have consequences.

Think it over.

Before cars were invented, or when they didn't go as fast as they do now - there were far fewer road traffic accidents. Why are car inventors and companies so cruel that they create vehicles that kill so many people?

Cheers,
Shafique

Well you are right about what you said, but you have to remember, car inventors and companies care more about profits than they do about the people and their safety...

Icenic wrote:Well you are right about what you said, but you have to remember, car inventors and companies care more about profits than they do about the people and their safety...

Ok lets accept that companies do it for profits.. but what about people i.e. who call themselves humanists that cannot resist driving a car when it is likely that one day they might get involved in an accident(ie slippery road) where tens of people killed..Who do you blame?

So why would he let a man who he know is going to end up in hell enter the world? I find that to be a very cruel action; to let a man live knowing he will end up in hell.

If Allah didn’t know who/what/where you were going to be from his eternal knowledge, then would you take him seriously to be a creator or claim him to have the capacity to be the all knowing- creator of the entire universe with everything created in it? Absolutely not...For me a true creator must know what he is creating beforehand when considering the fact that what he is creating is also an eternal being(soul).. It more like like an engineer who knows what he is designing before his model goes into production...

Allah does not admit people to Paradise or Hell simply because He knows they deserve that from his eternal knowledge, rather He will admit them to Paradise or Hell on the basis of the deeds that they actually did in this world. If Allah created mankind and put them in His Hell, they would soon argue that He did not test them or give them the chance to strive. Allah wanted to refute this argument, so He created them in this world and gave them reason, and revealed His Books, and sent His Messengers to every tribe or nation until the last message was finalised; all of that is so that they will have no argument against Allah on the Day of Resurrection.

Suppose that top floor of an apartment is full of bounties whereas basement is filled with the means of torture, and someone is in the elevator in this building. This person, who has already been told about the situation in the apartment, will receive many gifts if he hits the button for top floor and will be subjected to torture if he hits the button for basement.
Here, what will power only does is to make up its mind and decide which button to hit. As for elevator, it moves not through this person’s power and will, but through some particular physical and mechanical laws. In other words, just as man does not go to the top floor with his own power, he does not go to the basement with his own power either. However, it is allowed for his will to determine where the elevator should go up or down.
All actions man makes can be evaluated by this criterion. For example, Allah Almighty declared that to go to night club is not permitted whereas to go to mosque is a virtuous act. The human body, with its will, is fit to determine where to go as in the example of the elevator.

Allah Almighty, with His eternal knowledge, knows what I shall do, so what is my fault?
http://www.questionsonislam.com/index.p ... le&aid=674

Belief in Divine Decree
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/40/

The big questions
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/524/viewall/

"Where We Come From Debate" by Navid Masud.
http://www.reasoned.org/artic_1.htm

How about perhaps there was a God and it created the earth and us and then took off to work on another project. We've been left alone every since.

It's all a big joke between God and the Devil - haven't you seen Constantine?

Icenic wrote:This is one question that has had made it almost impossible to have faith in God's existence:

Here's another question, The universe and everything in it came into existence from nothingness , from the big bang , The amount of energy that was needed for such a colossal explosion , had to come from somewhere , the question is .. where ?

The amount of energy that was needed for such a colossal explosion , had to come from somewhere , the question is .. where ?

This is the question that ends the whole discussion. You ask where the energy came from, I ask where God came from. This is where faith comes into play. It's all a matter of what you believe in your gut. I have not denounced God, but I have also not blindly believed in him.

It's all a big joke between God and the Devil - haven't you seen Constantine?

THAT is what I believe, but not because of Constantine (I haven't seen it, but I will now ) In the Qur'an God tells Satan (I can't remember the exact quote) something along the line of, "You can manipulate anyone except the Mu'mineen (the true believers/followers)

I believe God and the Devil have a wager between them to see who will be able to reign over humanity. Since God is forgiving, he is giving Satan the chance to prove why he refused to bow down to Adam. A song comes to mind here, and you should all listen to it.

Chris De Burgh - Spanish Train

Icenic wrote:... I ask where God came from. This is where faith comes into play.

haha One question at a time iceman , Lets figure out the source of the big bang, then find the "source" of the "source" , Oh and it has nothing to do with faith , Its all about facts. I argue religion based on science not on philosophy, since philosophy is a product of the human mind, and the human mind errs, and hence human derived philosophies are ALL erroneous

Oh and Its not my objective to shut down this thread, Everyone should express their own understanding of this subject matter

zubber wrote:

Icenic wrote:This is one question that has had made it almost impossible to have faith in God's existence:

Here's another question, The universe and everything in it came into existence from nothingness , from the big bang , The amount of energy that was needed for such a colossal explosion , had to come from somewhere , the question is .. where ?

Watch Morgan Freeman's shows on Discovery Science - they've been covering this for quite some time.

Zubber you misunderstood one thing I don't wanna close the thread, I'm just saying that that's where this topic will end up. As for the Big Bang, there are a few theories out there. The one that I "buy", if you will, is the String Theory, and before I state what it says about the Big Bang, you have to read up on that, because the documentary that introduces the idea is about 3-4 hours long.

A quick summary would be:

Everything in the universe is made up of vibrating strands, or strings, of energy. There are 11 dimensions. In larger dimensions, ours is as simplistic as 2D is in in ours. Our universe is engulfed with a "membrane" created out of energy, and floats about in the entire, collective univers. The Big Bang therefore is the result of the collision of two universes, since the membranes are made purely of energy.

I know this may seem farfetched to many, but I've been a fanatic of astrophysics and the quantum world ever since I first learned about them in grade 7. To the uneducated mind (uneducated in the field of physics, not in general ) quantum physics altogether is farfetched.

At the end of the day, just as Galileo's theories were considered impossible as well as many others, this theory may be considered impossible as well, but whether or not it is true IS a matter of faith.

The Big Bang therefore is the result of the collision of two universes, since the membranes are made purely of energy.

Still then, someone has to explain who is the founder of those two colliding universes? go figure...

-- Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:59 pm --

Watch Morgan Freeman's shows on Discovery Science - they've been covering this for quite some time.

Do they explain how the bing bang contained enough "matter" to form the earth and billion other galaxies?

The Big Bang may explain the origin of the universe, but it doesn’t explain the origin of the primordial dust cloud. This dust cloud (which, according to the theory, drew together, compacted and then exploded) had to come from somewhere. After all, it contained enough matter to form not just our galaxy, but the billion other galaxies in the known universe. So where did that come form? Who, or what, created the primordial dust cloud?

Some time ago a group of hyper-intelligent pan dimensional beings decided to finally answer the great question of Life, The Universe and Everything.

To this end they built an incredibly powerful computer named ‘Deep Thought’. After the great computer programme had run (a very quick seven and a half million years) the answer was announced.

The Ultimate answer to Life, the Universe and Everything is...
(You're not going to like it...)
Is...
42



Courtesy of the Magrathean Public Archives

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aboZctrHfK8

Heh Point taken Icenic ,

Just to clarify, the the string theory is more about existence and interaction of the elements of the universe, it doesnt really talk about the origin, but talks more about harmony more than anything else. And I will leave it at that.

The source of the universe , is the big bang theory, the only widely acceptable one, which more or less in my opinion is logical and acceptable,

Quantum physics is not really complicated , its emergence has actually shaken the physics world, Einstein ( and among other notable figures) claim it really freaks them out. In a nut shell quantum physics states that anything comes into existence only when you become consciously aware of it , for all practical purposes , It says that if YOU icenic never knew ME zubber was on this forum, To YOU I would not exist. EVEN THOUGH I DO EXIST...Do you see how this plays into the existence of god.

The problem with science is that if something cannot be measured , it does not exist, And GOD the entity is immeasurable , You can't technically create a GODOSCOPE , So the arrogance of physicists with the exception of einstein ( because he talks about INTELLIGENT DESIGN which is an indirect reference to the existence of the omnipotent entity GOD or the MOST MERCIFUL ) , is that they DENY god because they CANNOT MEASURE HIM...

So to wrap up all my points , according to QUANTUM PHYSICS , GOD DOES EXIST , even though we havent been able to empirically prove his existence

Note - there are some other points I havent touched on , on the significance of quantum physics being the proof of the existence of an omnipotent SOURCE being responsible for not only the origin , but also its management (string theory).

Yeah I didn't like the string theory to be honest, thought it was a bit cuckoo!

Of course the answer to everything is 42! It says so in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy - lol

Hey, don't knock string theory - anything which talks about mulitple dimensions and vibrations get's my interest!

I think it is about time I roll out my favourite theory of creation that can't be disproved:

"We were all created 5 minutes ago with ready-made memories."

I've not met one person, or read one argument that disproves this elegant creation theory. But would you believe it if you can't disprove it??? hmm - why not?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:"We were all created 5 minutes ago with ready-made memories."

I've not met one person, or read one argument that disproves this elegant creation theory. But would you believe it if you can't disprove it??? hmm - why not?

According to standard procedures of hypothesis testing - Your theory would be given consideration

Hahahaha I like that! Or you know, we are really all living in the Maxtrix - no one can disprove that either

shafique wrote:Hey, don't knock string theory - anything which talks about mulitple dimensions and vibrations get's my interest!

Then surely you must approve of this

Just a quick personal note:

The fact that I can talk about quantum physics and have it explained to me, rather than the other way round, brings tears to my eyes I'm glad that this forum has intellectuals in it, and I'm happy to have met all of you. My generation is one where if you were to discuss, or even mention, quantum physics, you are automatically considered a lifeless nerd. So thank you all for being who you are, and knowing what you know. I love you all.

Zubber, string theory does in fact discuss the origin of the world. That what all my membrane talk was about, and I got that info from the string theory. Maybe you know a more primitive version of it?

Chocoholic, the fact that you think it's a bit cukoo makes it more likely to be true than false, because all of the greatest theories we believe today were once thought to be cukoo (This is just a comical comment, no offense intended )

Shaf, that theory of creationism is indeed one of the most elegant. It has passed me before, and the only reason I prefer not to believe it is because the thought of this whole world being just in some entity's thought scares me, and stupefies me at the same time.

In all honesty, I don't want to know these answers as long as I'm alive, because to me, the mystery in life is what makes it all so beautiful. I don't renounce God's existence, but I enjoy questioning it because so many people have so many different views on the matter, and every time I open this topic for discussion, I ending looking at it from so many new angles, which leads me to considering so many different aspects of life that I may have not thought of before.

desertdudeshj wrote:

shafique wrote:Hey, don't knock string theory - anything which talks about mulitple dimensions and vibrations get's my interest!

Then surely you must approve of this

haha HELL's YEA , Blast from the past

-- Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:21 pm --

Icenic wrote:Just a quick personal note:
Zubber, string theory does in fact discuss the origin of the world.

Nay! My good man , You are mistaken -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory
"String theory is a developing theory in particle physics that attempts to reconcile quantum mechanics and general relativity"

ie., Harmonization , All other facets are derived understanding, rather than objective of its theorization