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Does anyone really believe that 9/11 was a "terrorist" act? I mean I know that the media has successfully brainwashed most Americans into believing that, but are there others who believe that?

Yes. I do.

Cheers,
Shafique

You do? I honestly expected you to be that last one to do so. Just to clarify, by "terrorism" I mean Muslim Jihadists.

There is too much proof that the whole thing was a set-up, and if you want I can begin sending you links.

Peace.

I do too, and don't bother sending me your links as you'd be wasting your time.

Regards

Well then if you do too, how about send me some proof, so that maybe I'll change my opinion as well. As for my proof, here's a 4 part video, just to get you started :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_E4N5YIycI

You should have been more precise in your question Icenic.

But yes, I do believe the 9/11 attacks were carried out by terrorists who were Muslim and were making a political point about attacking the USA. I do believe the terrorists believed they were carrying out Jihad.

I don't believe the conspiracy theories - I don't think the US government or Mossad are competent enough to pull off such a cover-up if they were behind it.

I do have some issues with some of the spin - and I really want to understand where I can buy some indestructible passports which can survive a plane crash and aviation fuel fire-storm, and put chips in them that enable them to fall on top of rubble. I suspect that the Chinese boffins are working on next-generation chips that will allow the passports to fly in formation and land on top of police cars.

Cheers,
Shafique

Icenic wrote:Well then if you do too, how about send me some proof, so that maybe I'll change my opinion as well. As for my proof, here's a 4 part video, just to get you started :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_E4N5YIycI

You know that little bit of respect and credibility you earned on the Forum for such a young new contributor?

You just lost it all!

Whoosh, gone, infinitely faster than you earned it!

you dial 911 for emergency services in the Obamaland

Dillon wrote:

Icenic wrote:Well then if you do too, how about send me some proof, so that maybe I'll change my opinion as well. As for my proof, here's a 4 part video, just to get you started :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_E4N5YIycI

You know that little bit of respect and credibility you earned on the Forum for such a young new contributor?

You just lost it all!

Whoosh, gone, infinitely faster than you earned it!

Care to explain why you just threw my opinion and credibility aside so confidently? And it's not like I created the idea of conspiracy in 9/11. There are millions who believe that, and for you to dismiss it all away is kind of ignorant, especially when you give no explanation, so please do provide one.

-- Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:48 am --

I do have some issues with some of the spin - and I really want to understand where I can buy some indestructible passports which can survive a plane crash and aviation fuel fire-storm, and put chips in them that enable them to fall on top of rubble. I suspect that the Chinese boffins are working on next-generation chips that will allow the passports to fly in formation and land on top of police cars

I agree. What about the plane that crashed into the pentagon and "vaporized"? What about the steel foundation that were sliced at a perfect angle within the building? What about the typical demolition style that the tower collapsed in? What about the other explosion? If the government isn't capable of pulling off such a conspiracy, then how would a bunch of Muslim terrorists be capable of executing such an intricate plan without anyone noticing? I'm sorry but I find that a little odd, especially given the fact that 9/11 was what supplied the U.S. Government with it's excuse for war on Afghanistan. And why would they do that? Opium.

I've been for the longest time trying to beileve the official story but there just so many holes in it that for any logical persons to beileve it is almost impossible, one has to take huge leaps of faiths to believe it. Anybody who's spent a little time even on PC flight simulator let alone a comericial liner can tell you that for some one who just did some basic traning on a single engine propeler plane cannot pull off those manuveres. And with such deadly accuracy

Its like taking a few lessons at Emirates Driving school and wining the Grand Prix. Professional pilots with 1000's of hours of flying the planes supposedly used in the attacks say it is physically impossible for the planes to do what they have said to have done (www.pilotsfor911truth.org)

The Pancake theory is been debunked so many times its not even funny anymore. The best case secanrio ( again making huge leaps of faith by believeing the official story ) say it would take around 20 to 40 seconds for a building to go according to the pancake theory and not the actual 8 seconds. And that too on a building designed to take impacts for planes.

The fuel fires heating the supporting beams to an extend they lost integrity that the buckled ( around 1400 C ) but that would cause the top of the tower to lean over and fall and not come down straight. Clear as day video footage of surviors waving for help through the gaping holes caused by the crash. Not possible for humans to stand in the heat. Pictures of neatly cut an angle ( like in a shape charge cut used in demolitions ). Video of flashes on both the planes and buildings well before they made contact also remained unexplained. Like something being fired and then impacting seconds before the plane themselves impact. And these cannot be explained away as sunlight or shadows as every angle shows them

Ok now lets just make a huge leap of faith and say the towers came down because of the impacts.

What about WTC 7 was not hit by any plane and yet came down on it own foot print. Again lclear as day footage of a BBC report with the WTC 7 standing in the background and a correspondent reported it has collapsed ? around 15 min earlier than it did. A building comes down due to some scattered fires ?

Not even going to into the penatgon and the united crash in penn.

Like I said I really want to believe the official story but there are more holes in it than a truck full of swiss cheese. Also the lack of answering or putting to rest any of the questions raised by the govt just raises suspscion. Like Condi Rice on video a day after I beileve saying the govt has unrefutable proof that it was the work of OBL, nine years on we have to see this proof.

Also previous actions by the US govt also do not help towards the finger slowly pointing towards them. And then also declassified papers about flase flag operations like operation northwood and many other similar false flag operations show that it is not beyond them.

I've looked into almost everything there is to look from both sides all the 9/11 debunkers out there, the famous popular mechanics debunking videos and articles for example and yet only very few and minor questions have been answered. The biggest ones still remain as is.

All in all if anyone could prove to me, not without a shadow of doubt but with in reasonable measure that what is said to have happened, happened I'll go for it. Until then when it comes to the matter of 9/11 I'll be gladly accept being labeled as a troofer, tin foiler or whatever other term there is out there.

^Ok then. DDS is a tin foiler!!

Whilst I don't believe it was a big consipiracy - as I said, I'm still looking for a reasonable explanation for the indestructible passport though (let's explain the manageable, small bits of info first I say).

Cheers,
Shafique

I'd love to hear y'all conspiracy theories on how the bilderberger group was also involved in this deal

Like I said I'm not in conspriacies aswell. Its sickens me to think that the Govt would do this to its own people and the world and want to believe that it was a bunch of loonies with box cutters, but there is very little that supports that.

The passport is a minute detail and there are literally thousands of such mniutes details which would take forever to look into or explain, I'm looking into the big in your face stuff first.

Can a crudely trained pilot hit the side of small building ( height wise ) at the speed and accuracy of a tomahawk missle, physics say ( Ground effect )its impossible for a plane so large to fly so low at such high speeds ( let alone the skill required to do it ).

The most monitered building in the US with a number CCTV cameras on the perimeter and all you get is 6 or 7 frames showing nothing. A 757 dissapears into a 10 ft hole ? Just another hole in a whole series of holes in the official story.

Some of the biggest illusions are done in full view and in broad daylight. Copperfield and the disapearing statue of liberty anyone ? yeah now we all know how it was done but was gobsmacking when it was first shown. Hopefully this will also be the case with the whole 9/11 thing

zubber wrote:I'd love to hear y'all conspiracy theories on how the bilderberger group was also involved in this deal

Honestly thats the first time I've heard that ? I don't put much faith in stuff like that the jews were behind it or this was somekind of thing to steal gold or crap like that. I'm just looking at what the official story says and what actually happened and then trying to match them to see if they match or make any sense.

^Sorry, just to be pedantic (and I understand where you're coming from) - but the Copperfield statue of Liberty illusion was done at night - so not in full daylight.

Please continue.

(Oh, and yes - I do know how it is done - and it wouldn't have worked it daylight. )

Cheers,
Shafique

desertdudeshj wrote:[quote="zubber"
Honestly thats the first time I've heard that ? I don't put much faith in stuff like that the jews were behind it or this was somekind of thing to steal gold or crap like that. I'm just looking at what the official story says and what actually happened and then trying to match them to see if they match or make any sense.

Unfortunately as we all know there is so much conflicting evidence around this issue, It seems that some member of the rockfeller family had discussed all of these events with a director who was his friend, and the rockefeller group are apparently one of the members who attend this apparently super secret meeting, so the prevailing information suggests that they are somehow connected to the 911 debacle - Why ? , Apparently the the american defense contractors are all the ones who have made profits from all the wars that have been conducted using the 911 issue as justification.

And the sources of this information have all been used to fuel many conspiracy ideas.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group

desertdudeshj wrote: A 757 dissapears into a 10 ft hole ? Just another hole in a whole series of holes in the official story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDWv483YEmU

You will have to explain what did happen to flight 77:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/12/victim-capsule-flight77.htm

What did happen to flight 77 and its victims DDS? Did they crash somewhere else? Are they living a secret life somewhere else?

desertdudeshj wrote:Like I said I'm not in conspriacies aswell.

Nobody can claim to have any tangible evidence to prove anything regarding 911, so obviously we are all putting our own OPINIONS regarding our own understanding of this matter, And I am sure everyone else is also for that matter

-- Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:21 pm --

Dillon wrote:
You know that little bit of respect and credibility you earned on the Forum for such a young new contributor?

You just lost it all!

Whoosh, gone, infinitely faster than you earned it!

Hey Icenic, dont be put off with those comments, Obviously everyone is discussing this issue based on their own research with information that is floating around. So TECHNICALLY EVERYONE IS WRONG and the only one who knows the truth are the members of the bush administration. So please feel free to voice out your OPINION

I wasn't put off at all, but I really hate it when people make statements like that and don't back them up. And to use my age in it as well is just pretty immature. I respect everyone's opinion, and I understand some people feel differently about this particular issue, but I have yet to see anyone backing up their belief that it was terrorists who were behind it as strongly as DDS has. There are too many oddities in the story. And FD, out of all that was said, why did you only reply to one detail? Let's say DDS and myself are mistaken, how do you disprove the rest?

I am with you on this Icenic. I don't believe the official story. Before 9/11 the best islamic terrorist groups could muster was an attack on the USS cole and some bombings on embassies in Africa. I don't see how a terrorist group or any group for that matter can rise to the capability of being able to comandeer aircrafts over US airspace so easily. The way the twin towers also fell after the attack doesn't stack up for me.

This is a highly sensitive issue and I have friends that simply don't agree with me and others that do. I was born in the US and live there for 1/2 my life and this is my view based on what I have read and seen.

Icenic wrote:And FD, out of all that was said, why did you only reply to one detail?

So, what did happen to flight 77?

Icenic wrote:Let's say DDS and myself are mistaken, how do you disprove the rest?

Disprove what? The conspirancy theorists cannot come up with credible alternatives, thats my problem with them. Everybody can came up with great stories. Give a credible alternative with evidence and than you can ask others to disprove it. Lets start with what happened with flight 77.

Well maybe flight 77 was truly sacrificed for thesake of instilling fear into the American public and thus providing the support for the government to wage war. I mean in the scenario where this is all a government conspiracy, what a plane full of people when entire buildings full of people are destroyed?

Credible alternatives with evidence? Did you read all what DDS wrote? How do you explain all of that? Did you watch the 4 part video I posted? How do you explain that?

Icenic wrote:Well maybe flight 77 was truly sacrificed

Was it? Or Wasnt it? "maybe" doesn't cut it.

I think it is ok to be agnostic on this point - and ok to have some maybes.

I'm still struggling for a good explanation for the passport, for example. I've not read any convincing arguments for the other 'holes' in the official line either - but I'm still applying Ocram's razor and coming down on the side that it probably wasn't a big conspiracy, but perhaps a one-off where the terrorists got very lucky, and perhaps some of the 'holes' are the authorities taking advantage of the situation.

That said, I can't really find good excuses to totally dismiss the pilots, engineers etc who are skeptical of the official lines.

I also have a sneeky suspicion that if it was a conspiracy, the best way to cover it up is to make up some more outrageous claims about conspiracy theories so that people will then dismiss the parts which were indeed part of the conspiracy!! (I guess I may have read too many cold-war spie novels in my life!)

So, may I ask a selfish question - does anyone have a plausible explanation for the indestructible passport - or does everyone share my view that this is truly unbelievable and must be a conspiracy??

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman wrote:What did happen to flight 77 and its victims DDS? Did they crash somewhere else? Are they living a secret life somewhere else?

I don't know, wish I did like so many others aswell, like I said I don't know if you want to believe me or not, I really want to believe the official story. I'm actually looking for evidence to prove the official story and not vice versa, even willing to make a few leaps of faiths in the process. But when almost everything requires one thats where the official story starts to become shaky.

For flight 77 just one of those holes is how were the cell phone calls possible, there is not network at that altitude, and the FCC strictly regulates all radio communication available for air to ground communications.

Also the lack of debris. Compare the crash site of flight 77 of that anyother. Flight 77 site just a dug of patch of earth.

I know the lack of alternatives is very sketchy and at the moment too far out to believe, but just because the lack of alternative eveidence isn't present does not mean we just take the govts word for what they are offering us instead.

BTW in the intital hours an airport did report that a certain flight 77 had landed there. I forget exactly where, and I think there were also reports by a few news agencies of that happening. Anyways I could dig it all up if you want me to.

As for the passport, it is highly unlikely to have survived such an explosion and impact. Also I think more ID like driving licenses and stuff has been clamied to be recovered. Its ironic in the sense that the black boxes made to withstand such abuse were officialy never found. But a Ground Zero worker Mark Bellone claims the contarary.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

Icenic wrote:Well maybe flight 77 was truly sacrificed

Was it? Or Wasnt it? "maybe" doesn't cut it.

I don't really have any inside information to give you a certain answer, but why are you dismissing all the other information? I mean this one shady detail is leading you to dismiss all the other hard evidence? If so then you should just drop this topic, because it means that you just don't want to accept that it could be a conspiracy.

@Shaf - The two things that make me believe that its not what the public has been lead to believe are -
(a) The indestructable passport
(b) The way the buildings collapsed
A good friend of mine that is an engineer told me that if a building of that size was burning from the top there is no way for it to collapse in the manner that it did on tv. The rest of who was behind it and why - whether it was to get a mandate for war or otherwise I don't know. It just seems like a setup.
As we see with the Wikileaks its extremely difficult to mess with the establishment - you get bullied and shoved into the cold.

I've also spoken with many pilots (my step-mother used to be a cabin manager/flight attendant) and they have told me that it is impossible for anyone with basic training to pull a stunt like that, and that even they themselves could never do it. FD are you a pilot?

JoeTGF wrote:@Shaf - The two things that make me believe that its not what the public has been lead to believe are -
(a) The indestructable passport
(b) The way the buildings collapsed

The passport thing was so outrageous that most of the guys in our office initially thought it was a joke - we couldn't believe that people would believe that a passport of a terrorist suspect would miraculously be found after two airplane crashes and the collapse of the twin towers.

As Harry Hill would say: 'What are the chances of that'.

The way the buildings collapse, I can believe the explanations given - at least for the twin towers (there is an explanation that at least throws the conspiracy theory of controlled explosions into 'reasonable doubt' territory). However, I'm still waiting for a credible explanation for the third building collapse..

The other bit of news that is a bit suspicious is the pentagon crash - where did the aircraft engines disappear to and why aren't there holes in the building where these went through. Hmm.

But you've got to hand it to the American public - they know how to spin a conspiracy theory - there's no shortage of groups, websites, videos etc that highlight these issues!

Cheers,
Shafique