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Most of you know the term clinicly dead or brain dead. People at this stage are brain dead (I believe) and the basic part of their body fail to function without the brain. These people live on breathing equipment and stuff. Once these things are plugged off, they are claimed dead (again). Recent cases as you know where King Hussien, the POP and others.

Two questions:

1) What would you do if you know that someone is brain dead in the sense that do you keep the machines running and hope for a miracle? Or?

2) If someone is brain dead and they are living on a machine, when does the soul leaves the body? Does anyone know? Perhaps if we got this one answered then we can answer the first question.

Thanks God I never had to take a decision like that. I mean how can you decide to keep another person alive or not. Specially when this person is very close to you. How do you know what is the best for him? Is it better to keep the machines running and hope the person will "wake up" again and will be back to normal? At the same time, the longer you wait the less hope will be. Some people "wake up" after weeks or months, but they will have irreparable brain damage. They will not be able to have a normal life anymore.

I think the soul stays in the body as long as the heart is working. However in the case of brain dead, the heart is working by force (the machines). The question is, is the right to bar the soul from leaving the body?

If someone is Brain dead, then that's it! The brain ceases to produce any electrical activity. The machines are mearly pumping oxygen around the body keeping the organs alive for say transplantation. If you switch them off then the organs die as well. Once someone is brain dead then there is no hope of recovery.

Now if someone is in a coma, then that's a different story. People have been in comas for years and suddenyl awoken saying they could hear everything that was happening around them and inside they were screaming out for help but obviously couldn't make any physical sounds. Now the crunch comes when a person is forced to make a decision over someone in a coma, do you keep these people 'alive' or switch off the machines, where the brain activity might be minimal or just brain stem activity, if the brain stem is still active then it will keep basic bodily functions like breathing happening.

But if someone is brain dead or clinically dead then that's that.

i don t know if anyone has heard of one of those kinda akward phychological tests or not. anyway here it goes. imagine ur in the jungle with ur mate and ur mother. and both of them get a bite from a deadly spider or snake. u have only one antivanom. who do u save? ur mother or ur mate?
tough question, ha?
so how do u decide if u let smbody "live" on the machines, or let him die? i guess to need to know that person and the character of that person and most important, think of what would be best for him, not for u.

In Islam there are two types of 'soul' - the Nafs and the Rooh.

Rooh can be thought of as the essence that makes a bunch of cells 'alive' instead of 'dead'. This distinguishes between cells etc that are alive and those which are not. Thus far science hasn't been able to create this life-force - but relies on life coming from previously living material.

The Nafs, by contrast, is the 'soul' in the higher sense of the word in English. It is what can sustain the body in life and eventually gives rise to conciousness. Islamic theory says that the Nafs enters the foetus at 3 months old (before that time, it is alive, but not self-sustaining and not a proper person) - this is directly from the Prophet's sayings.

It is the Nafs that will survive after death and will continue to evolve - the Hadith say that the development of the Nafs will follow the same path as a foetus in a womb - the Nafs at death will be like the fertilized egg, and will evolve to an extent where it will bear no resemblance to the original.. but that's another story.

The nafs will be what is judged (on the Day of Judgement) and the nafs is the root of conciousness of choice - the ability to choose between good and evil.

I think animals have roohs, but not nafs - a distinguishing aspect between humans and animals. Animals are inherently programmed to behave according to their genes and their interaction with the environment - they don't make concious choices and aren't judged by God. A lion is no more bad or good than a lamb, both act according to their natures.

Sorry for the long journey to the answer to the question - but here it is..

In my opinion, a brain dead body is one where the Nafs has left it. In this case, we are looking at flesh and bone and no conciousness. Brain dead means beyond expectation of any recovery.

Coma is different (as well explained by Choco). Personally if a coma can't be sustained without mechanical intervention for breathing, I would let the body die.

If only food and water are required - the person is breathing by itself and there is brain activity - then the nafs hasn't left the body and there is a chance of recovery, I would continue to give sustenance as to do otherwise would be to starve the body and cause death by starvation.

I do not believe in Euthenasia - as Islam says it is a sin. Suicide is a sin and that is committed when a person is in extreme pain (which can be completely psychological) - therefore assisted suicide is also a sin.

I hope that the above sheds some light on the Islamic perspective of the original question.

Wasalaam,
Shafique

Well spoken as usual Shafique

Nice one Shaf. Although I have to disagree with you somewhat on the animal principle. As anyone who has worked with or who owns animals will tell you, that many species do more than just run on instinct. Many animals are capable of making conscious decisions.

Yeah, good post Shaf.
Though I have to say that I disagree somewhat with your belief regarding people in Coma's and letting them die if they need medical intervention to keep them breathing.
I have first hand experience of this. A very good friend of mine was in an accident - she fell over a balcony in a nightclub - and she landed on her head. She went into a coma and was being kept alive with all manner of machines. The doctors told her parents that they should start to prepare for the worst, as she wouldn't pull through and they should switch the machine off. Her parents ignored her, and a few days later she started breathing on her own, and the following day she woke from her coma - so I for one am glad that har parents refused to let them turn the machine off!!

Choco - animals can be trained to mimic human conciousness, but it does not mean that they are making concious decisions based on a sense of right or wrong.

A dog that has been trained to be a guard dog and be very vicious is no more 'good' or 'bad' than a dog that has been trained to be a guide dog. Both are dogs that are acting according to their animal instincts and training.

Chimps and apes also can appear to make concious decisions - but they are actually choosing based on instinct and experience, not a higher reasoning and sense of good and bad.

The philosophical point is one that is faced by society when it comes to laws and questions of responsibility. Animals are not put on trial for their actions. Why not? Islam explains the difference between humans and Animals in terms of the former having a Nafs and the latter not having one.

Philosophically as well, a person should not be rewarded for actions where he has no choice in how to behave. There may be natural consequences for enforced behaviour (for example, enforced exercise and strict diet will keep people fitter than otherwise), but the concept of punishment/reward in religion hinges on the choices we make. How we acted given the choices we had are what we will be judged on.

Zooter - your point is poignant, doctors don't always get things right. Coma patients who aren't brain dead and need aid breathing should be given initial treatment. What happens next is really up to the family and doctors.. I haven't had to make these decisions and do not wish it on anyone else.

Cheers,
shafique

shafique wrote:Zooter - your point is poignant, doctors don't always get things right. Coma patients who aren't brain dead and need aid breathing should be given initial treatment. What happens next is really up to the family and doctors.. I haven't had to make these decisions and do not wish it on anyone else.

Me neither. It was by far the worst week of my life, so what her parents went through I can't imagine. I certainly wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy!
Maybe it was all the result of prayers and positive thoughts - whatever the religion??

shaf/liban

How does the Quoran/Islam deal with suicide by an individual that is not responsible for his/her actions, ie mental illness.

Arnie,

The actions of a mental patient will be judged as if they were a child, in my opinion.

Suicide is a sin - for those who have a choice to choose suicide or not. For those whose mental capacity means they can't make rational decisions will be judged differently.

The over-riding concept of the Day of Judgement is that God will be the ultimate judge, and the He is Gracious, Merciful and Forgiving. Punishments are ultimately for the purification of the souls - the Islamic concept of Heaven is an eternal place of continual development.

The Hadith say that Heaven and Hell will be the same place - but souls will experience the envioronment differently. It was explained to me once like the difference between a healthy person and someone suffering from rabies - for one a glass of cold water may be like heaven and for the other the water will be like hell for them. They are both experiencing the same water.. so it will be in Heaven.

Interestingly, this is not so different from the Christian concept of Heaven of being in the presence of God.

The Hadith say that eventually hell will be empty.

Ultimately Arnie, only God knows what the fate of people on the Day of Judgement will be. He assures us in the Quran that He will be merciful and forgiving, and above all Just.

Cheers,
Shafique

Thanks Shaf

OK another question that came from your post. You say

"He assures us in the Quran that He will be merciful and forgiving, and above all Just"

Excuse my ignorance as i haven't read the Quoran, but from this i assume these are the words of God. Who were these words relayed through?

Arnie,

The Quran is the literal word of God - it was relayed via the Angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad, pbuh.

Each chapter of the Quran begins with 'In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful'.

Nothing in the Quran is considered the word of anyone other than God Himself - and the Quran itself claims that this is the word of God and that God Himself will protect the Quran and keep it intact.

This contrasts with the 'Hadith' - the sayings of the Holy Prophet, pbuh, where he tells the Muslims various things.. all really just to expand what is in the Quran. No hadith can contradict what is in the Quran.

Cheers,
Shafique

cheers Shaf

Dear Bro Shaf,

You always just give me that great charming senation bro.. you are always a great source of info..

i would like kind to draw your attention to this verse in Quran:

Chapter 6, verses:

[36] Those who listen (in truth), be sure, will accept: as to the dead, Allah will raise them up; then will they be returned unto Him.

[37] They say: "Why is not a Sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "Allah hath certainly power to send down a Sign: but most of them understand not."

[38] There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have We omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.

and please Bro, keep in mind that there are a chapter called: "The Spider", another one called "The beez" .. and "The Ants"

Allah mentioned this in the Quran for the uniqueness of such creatures he created.

Yes animals do act for certin things on their instinct.. but it has many wonders and activities to the limit Allah has called them by "Nations".. the sotry of Prophet Suliamn with the ant.

Thanks bro,

Horizon,

The Quran also says that Bees are sent 'wahi' or revelation from God, and that Cows/Bulls were sent down from heaven (not literally, of course).

Islam teaches respect for all God's creatures, and the Holy Prophet, pbuh, showed great compassion for all animals, especially beasts of burden. His companions included many who loved animals - the most prolific of the Hadith narrators was a man known as 'Abu Hurrairah' - which literally means 'Father of Cat' due to the fact he loved cats - he kept a cat with him at all times, I seem to recall.

However, Allah also says that it is only men who will be judged on the day of Judgement. All animals are created and worship God in their own way - but they are not going to be judged, in the same way that Angels aren't going to be judged - they are creations who have no will of their own, but only do Allah's bidding.

Arnie - you are welcome, answering your questions gives me an opportunity to re-visit and spell out my beliefs.

Cheers,
Shafique

Thats right.

What am talking about has nothing to do with the judgment. but what i am trying to say that our concept about animals should be a ltl different. Allah used every word in Quran for it self precisely... no simlier word could fit in that place but that word.. thats why when he used the word "Umam = Nations" he meant a nation.. with the concept that we know for nation now. a socity with a structure. thats all mate.

Why are only men eligable on Judgement day??

arniegang wrote:Why are only men eligable on Judgement day??

Semantics my friend.

Just like how we refer to humans as "man". Its the same thing.

Men and Women (human beings) are who will be judged

Ah ok

When God spoke to Moses, is this reiterated (regarding the 10 commandments) within the Quoran?

Arnie - yes, all the 10 commandments as understood by Jews and Christians are encompassed in the Quran.. it will be an interesting exercise to go through and get the quotes - but I'm sure Google can help.

In fact, all religions, I contend, enjoin their followers to abide by the 10 commandments..

I'll start a new thread when I have got the relevant verses..and to remind other people as to what the 10 commandments are! (not covetting your neighbour's ass is one of them right? )

Actually, it only took me 10 secs to find the answer (thanks to Google):
http://www.quran.org.uk/articles/ieb_qu ... dments.htm

All the commandments are in the Quran except for the last - about honouring the Sabath, which only applied to the Jews.

Cheers,
Shafique

We Muslims follow the commandments.

Question.

If the soul leaves the body when a person is brain dead, and the body is kept alive, does that not defy the will of God?

If the soul has left the body you cannot be just a brain dead but the whole body will be dead then, however one can be both braine dead or in coma and still be alive through being connected to reviving/breathing machines which will take over the functions of heart, lungs and brain, it’s only that, when machine monitors show the heart is no longer functiniong is actually the moment when you are officially complete dead, in other words the soul has left the body..so the moment the soul leaves the body is the time designated for you to die as the destiny assigned from god....