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Bora Bora wrote:Interesting DDS. You met HUNDREDS of French people? You do get around more than I thought.

Yes habibti, that was my job for almost a decade. I've met and talked at lenght with almost every nationality on Gods good earth there is. Much more than being a boring bored old housewife

Bora Bora wrote:As for who one votes for, the fact that you have probably never cast a vote, you wouldn't know the privilege it is to be able to vote. In countries that allow the people to vote, there are many times that people will, to exercise (key word here is "exercise") their right to vote, will vote for the least popular party, to take a vote away from the leading candidate(s) who they not want to see in office.

??? How is this relevant at all. I don't have to be a white supremacist to know what the Aryan brotherhood is all about ? Or live in aparthied Africa to know that it was a racist country.

BM's association with the BNP ( there are also claims its linked to the EDL aswell )is however relevant in this thread as that is what the thread is all about. If one was being accused of being racist against blacks, I think the fact the person is the Grand Dragon of the local KKK chapter would matter.

Since your a convert to Islam rest assured if you showed up in hijab at your BFF's office for a job she would just bin your resume or even refuse to interview, just because of you being muslim and the way your dressed.

Chew on that for second before you reply

Can't chew water, can one??

Well that DDS is where you are wrong, yet again. From what I know of Bora, I don't believe she would throw her religion at me and therefore how would I know she was a Muslim, if indeed that is what she is? In truth I do know what religion Bora is and I have to say that had she not told me, I wouldn't have guessed in a million years. That's what religion should be like, private.

-- Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:05 pm --

desertdudeshj wrote:On the Vino again I see

desertdudeshj wrote:Yes I didn't like any of the French people I've met and there have been hundreds, only nice French people I've met have been here DD ( although hes only kinda French ) and Herve.

i.e : On DF

No DDS, I'm at work, so no wine for me till later. And it is without alcohol that I realise I have made you squirm, how very amusing. Well we are making progress at last. You have now admitted that you are sometimes a bigot yourself. Out of the hundreds of French people you have met and disliked, there are two virtual mates here on DF that are ‘nice’

Excuse me while I smirk.

Always be wary of claiming who your ‘mates’ are on an internet forum DDS as you just never now who you are talking to. I have to say Herve has never mentioned you, and the last time I met DD, he didn’t have a French accent, he may well have a French connection but I have to say it wasn’t that obvious.

Well then you better get home and drink some as your starting to loose it and becoming boring with those long and wandering posts !

But not boring enough for you to ignore, munchkin What is it Winston Churchill said, better to be abused than ignored? BTW I got that off your French 'mate' Herve!

May I suggest you look up what the attacks listed consist of then, before you comment further?

What part of Herve working in counter-terrorism didn't you understand?

I totally agree that if you are hunting Muslim terrorists then you will be targetting Muslims (duh!)

I suggest you go back and look at what Herve actually said instead of relying on your imagination.

Herve's job was dealing with high priority terrorist threats. In France, the highest priority threat, especially in the mid-90's, would have been Muslims who were blowing up subways and hijacking jumbo jets to use as kamikaze planes.

As Herve correctly points out, Islamic terrorism is qualitatively distinct from other forms of terrorism. Comparing someone who detonates a glorified firecracker in an empty field after the area has been evacuated to four Muslim suicide bombers is nothing short of dishonest.

So, would it be Islam itself, or perhaps the immigration and political climate in France for Muslims that may be the cause of the problems Herve had to deal with? Is it the religion, or is it people with issues misusing the religion? A subject for another thread?

^Agree that the question posed is best dealt with in another thread in Politics.

The quaint belief that somehow the 0.4% of terrorist acts committed by Muslims in Europe were qualitatively or quantitatively different from the 99.6% of terrorist acts (as defined and documented by Europol) is funny and demonstrates that beliefs are strongly held.

I particularly like the logic of comparing the worst act in one group against the most benign act in another group. And then the gall to say that the quoting of statistical facts is somehow dishonest! You've got to admire the chutzpah!

But then again, if we were to compare the worst against the worst or the most stupid against most stupid - they wouldn't be able to make their case would they? 99.6% vs 0.4% is a very hard one to spin - hence why rhetoric substitutes facts/evidence - so the thread title is still very apt.

There's no valid, empirical reason for singling out Muslims - be it for employment or for searches. But some people are convinced that they are right to advocate singling out Muslims - despite the evidence and logic. That is silly.

Cheers,
Shafique

The Europol report is subject to interpretation. Fact is that Islamic terrorism is a far more dangerous threat than separatist terrorism. Why?
Separatists are highly trained and more chirurgical and effective in their attacks, and there are no separatist suicide bombers.
Islamist terrorists are poorly trained, and aim at causing indiscriminate mass casualties, even among their own people, and they do use suicide bombers.
Separatists represent a very limited no of people with no support in the general population, and it is very difficult for them to recruit new soldiers outside their villages,
Islamist terrorists are among a very large population of second generation Muslim immigrants all over the world and easier to recruit and to push to radicalisation.
Separatists are organized with a "head" and cells. Somehow easier to control, hence the high number of arrests.
Islamists terrorists are in small independant groups, unaffiliated to terrorists organizations but adhere to their ideology, this makes them incredibly difficult to hunt, hence the preemptive or sling ops.
Separatists do not use the internet to recruit, organize, communicate. There is no basis for it, because they have no support in the general population, noboy to recruit or train.
Islamists use countless of web platforms to spread their ideolgy, training tips, and hate messages. They do have the support of a large portion of the Muslim population.
What the numbers do not say, is that 1 Islamic terrorist is more dangerous for the public than 500 hundred terrorist separatists. The separatist attacks have less impact on the media because they are against Post offices or police stations, compare that to an attack on a crowded subway station.
I really do not wish you to find yourself one day on a plane bound to NY with a suicide bomber on board, but I guarantee you that this day you will regret your words, this day you will have wished for "security profiling" because THAT bomber will not be a Basque or a Corsican separatist but a Mulsim.
Or....if you are still not convinced..... on your way down, you can always explain to the other passengers how it was silly to single out Muslims.
In the end... if Muslims cleaned up that scum within their owns by themselves, there would not be a singling out problem at all.

herve wrote:The Europol report is subject to interpretation. Fact is that Islamic terrorism is a far more dangerous threat than separatist terrorism. Why?

Sure - we can analyse to death the 0.4% of terrorist acts committed by Muslims and compare them with the 99.6% of terrorist acts committed by non-Muslims. I've no problem with that.

We can then test out your theory that terrorist acts by Muslims (0.4% of them) is a more dangerous threat than that by separatists etc (99.6%).

I just hope that we're not being silly and believing the hype. Look what happened when you guys believed there were WMD in Iraq.

Believing the hype also means that agencies manufacture threats - just look at all the cases of entrapment.

You at least are being novel in arguing that the small number of terrorist acts by Muslims are MORE dangerous because of the incompetence of the wannabe terrorists.

As I said in the previous post - I totally agree that there is nothing wrong in tackling the 0.4% of terrorist acts, we should seek to eliminate all forms of terrorism. I'm just pointing out that it would be silly to single out these guys and spend relatively less time on the 99.6%.

Empirically speaking - the majority of the 0.4% terrorists who are Muslim are indeed numpties with little training. We should be glad they are not as competent as say Tim McVeigh. The frightening thing is that there is no shortage of expertise in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq etc - but that goes to show that the scare stories about Muslims waging war against 'Western Civilisation' is a wild fantasy that is not borne out in reality.

Silly is as silly does.

Cheers,
Shafique

WMD are way off topic but I can tell you on that one, that "I" knew there were none, and so as many other members of the intelligence community. The WMD issue was a political issue, not an intelligence issue.

Entrapment, statistics, fabrication, fine, I ll see you on your way down in the suicide bomb plane.
Shafique, what is your opinion on "profiling" as aviation security check? right or wrong?

Herve - yes the French didn't swallow the WMD kool-aid - and didn't the US love you for it!

French Fries became 'Freedom Fries' - how could we forget.

As for suicide planes - as I pointed out before, the last person to fly a suicide plane in a terrorist act was a white American dude in Texas in February this year.

Whilst you're looking for a Muslim wannabe bomber, I'm just concerned that the next Tim McVeigh will be laughing all the way to his next target.

Don't get me wrong - I do see your logic. I just think it is silly.

Cheers,
Shafique

Now you are biased, or confused, the texas suicide plane was more a separatist than a terrorist attack, it is dishonest to put on the same level a desperate tax protester alone on a single engine small plane, and a Muslim terrorist on a commercial jet with 200 innocent passengers.
I still would like to hear you about profiling, Mc veil did not bomb an airplane

As of the crusade against the west, I still have these images in my head, from all over the Arab nations, of people chanting and dancing in the streets after the 911 attack, that was not really a message of sympathy, rather a message of victory

herve wrote:Now you are biased, or confused, the texas suicide plane was more a separatist than a terrorist attack,

LOL - everyone calling this a terrorist attack must be wrong then!

It appears to me that you've lost it now - your beliefs seem to come from images in your head and not stats or evidence.

I refer you to my previous comments about silliness.

Cheers,
Shafique

-- Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:13 am --

And let's see what the latest hijacking of plane was about - presumably it was a Muslim. oh, no wait:

2009: AeroMéxico Flight 576, a Boeing 737-800 flying from Cancún to Mexico City was hijacked by José Marc Flores Pereira, a Bolivian citizen claiming he had a bomb and demanding to speak to Mexican president Felipe Calderón.



Cheers,
Shafique

Nobody called it act of terrorism, what are you talking about, law enforcement officials called it a criminal act by a lone individual. That s all it is
No ideology or connection to a terrorist group, I have seen the same in France, a nutcase walking in the local tax office and offloading a 12 gauge on the workers, that was not terrorism.

comparing a suicide lone individual on a private plane to a muslim terrorist on a crusade highjacking a commercial jet with 200 passengers........ is biased

Marc Flores Pereira was a nut bag and did not kill anyone, mostof the passengers did not even know they had been taken hostages, lol

Yes, herve - clearly only Muslims who carry act of terrorism can be labelled terrorists - you'll find excuses for anyone else.

'Nobody called it an act of terrorism' - were you in a submarine at the time, or did you just not see the references to the suicide bombing of a federal building using a plane as an act of terrorism? Or did you just wish all these references away?



Anyway - kanelli will be jumping in anytime soon to tell us that this is getting sillier and off topic now.

You obviously have strongly held beliefs - and good on you for holding on to these in the light of evidence to the contrary. I salute you, mon ami and bid you good day.

Cheers,
Shafique

Interesting, very interesting!
Someone ( I think it was Ms Bora) calls BM as the most intelligent poster on this thread, and how all that she says is tongue in cheek, and how she has a sharp wit etc., etc. And just as I was beginning to feel that DDS and the rest of us may have made a terrible mistake and been wrong about her being a BNP voter and a white supremacist, out pops Ms BM herself and sets the record straight! LOL.
So now there you have it in black and white! Now, begins the damage control: of course; you dont know how it is in a free country, and voting for a party blah blah blah by Ms Bora.
So, she can vote the BNP to make a point about immigration?
Excuse moi, and my alcohol sodden brain. There is something that I dont understand here. To me this is straight hypocrisy.
Of course, the Muslims are down, so kick them in the balls. The Muslims are down because of the vengeful acts by a bunch of crazed fanatics from Saudia. I have no clear idea of what actually happened, but I did see Fahrenheit 911, and I would suggest all of you who post here and have an interest in the subject see it again after all these years. We can even discuss the history of all this and see where THAT leads us to.
As for xenophobic racist white supremacists, I have yet to find an intelligent one, with anything in their arguments but just hot air. I know of many many people voting for BNP type parties in Europe.
Its like stabbing someone with a knife, and then saying "Knife? What knife?"
Peace!:bom:

zonker wrote:Interesting, very interesting!
Someone ( I think it was Ms Bora) calls BM as the most intelligent poster on this thread, and how all that she says is tongue in cheek, and how she has a sharp wit etc., etc. And just as I was beginning to feel that DDS and the rest of us may have made a terrible mistake and been wrong about her being a BNP voter and a white supremacist, out pops Ms BM herself and sets the record straight! LOL.
So now there you have it in black and white! Now, begins the damage control: of course; you dont know how it is in a free country, and voting for a party blah blah blah by Ms Bora.
So, she can vote the BNP to make a point about immigration?
Excuse moi, and my alcohol sodden brain. There is something that I dont understand here. To me this is straight hypocrisy.
Of course, the Muslims are down, so kick them in the balls. The Muslims are down because of the vengeful acts by a bunch of crazed fanatics from Saudia. I have no clear idea of what actually happened, but I did see Fahrenheit 911, and I would suggest all of you who post here and have an interest in the subject see it again after all these years. We can even discuss the history of all this and see where THAT leads us to.
As for xenophobic racist white supremacists, I have yet to find an intelligent one, with anything in their arguments but just hot air. I know of many many people voting for BNP type parties in Europe.
Its like stabbing someone with a knife, and then saying "Knife? What knife?"
Peace!:bom:

Are you drinking wood alcohol or some kind of home brew???

What I said was: BM was the sharpest knife in the drawer when it came to a sense of humor and much of it is tongue in cheek. Unfortunately if you have a sense of humor that is equivalent to a butter knife, it will go over one's head. I will add that the crazed fanatics you refer to are not exclusive to Saudis if that is what you mean when you say "Saudia".

As for for the rest of it, I will leave it to BM. She is very capable of speaking her mind and takes pleasure in addressing those who think that her thinking is wrong, while their thinking is right and correct.

Thou heapest so much scorn on moi Ms Bora! I but consume Chivas Regal to drown out mine sorrow!
As for my humour going over over your head, all that I can say is next time I shall try to aim a little lower.
And yes, when I said Saudia, I meant the Saudis indeed. I am impressed, I have to admit, with the depth of your wit.
As for BM, yes, I think you are right, she will soon be here to defend the indefensible......with more verbiage.
Peace!

@Zonker, Another non Brit who is getting his knickers in a twist about my voting habits, how amusing.

Its a good thing there is a "rest of the world" out there. British Imperialism is a thing of the past. Your (Not So) Royal Family is a bunch of perverts and faggots maintained at the tax-payer's expense. Arrogance is nothing but a display of unbounded ignorance. You dont rule the world anymore, baby, yours is just a tiny island slowly sinking out of sight what with its monumental economic problems. Its not the fault of the "foreigners" you know.....forget about white supremacy.

Did your claim for housing benefit get turned down when you were bumming it in the UK or something?

-- Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:05 am --

@ Shaf, you've got to hand it to Herve, he is the real deal here. All your statistics in the world can't compare with someone at the sharp end. You shuffle your bits of paper and he does the dirty deeds. I know who I'd rather be standing beside when the sh1t hits the fan.

Oh BM! More scorn!...."Non Brit", "claim for housing benefit turned down", "bumming it in the UK", I cant take this anymore!!
Well, for your info, non of the above, except that I am proud to be a Non Brit!
Now, if that is all that has turned you into a BNP voter.........
But its time for me to hit the sack.....so I look forward to continuing this discussion with you at a later date. In the meantime, do continue to enlighten us with your brilliant views.

-- Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:19 am --

Oh, and bon nuit......and au revoir! To both of you ladies

zonker wrote:Oh BM! More scorn!...."Non Brit", "claim for housing benefit turned down", "bumming it in the UK", I cant take this anymore!!
Well, for your info, non of the above, except that I am proud to be a Non Brit!
Now, if that is all that has turned you into a BNP voter.........
But its time for me to hit the sack.....so I look forward to continuing this discussion with you at a later date. In the meantime, do continue to enlighten us with your brilliant views.

-- Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:19 am --

Oh, and bon nuit......and au revoir! To both of you ladies

Sleep well, I know I do

BM - if it is ok with you, I'll stick to the stats from the police. I think it odd that someone who is familiar with the intelligence communityh thinks someone flying a plane into a building in a suicide attack with the intention of killing civilians is NOT a terrorist!

(Stack said in his suicide note that he wanted to increase the body count, and he targeted civilians - ergo he's a suicide bomber terrorist who happens to be white, American and non-Muslim).

But hey - I totally get you guys. Why let facts/evidence get in the way of 'beliefs'?



Cheers,
Shafique

Sorry Shaf, but in the cold light of day, when I go on the London Underground or anywhere else crowded for that matter, who am I sneaking a glance at? It's just the way of the world at the moment. I lived in London in the early 70's. When I went in a pub in those days, I used to freeze if I heard an Irish accent.

Thanks for sharing BM - I've yet to meet a prejudiced person who could not justify to themselves and others their prejudices.

No one is saying that Singling out muslims can't be justified in people's minds - we're just point out that it is silly.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, can you explain to me why it is that when anyone expresses an opinion here that differs from yours, DDS or Zonker's that they are silly, racist or a white supremacist? Have you looked at how few people contribute to this topic? When anyone joins in they are given a label. It's no wonder people just prefer to keep their mouths shut. Maybe if you stopped preaching and thought about how others felt you may achieve something. Whether it is unsavioury to you or not, the fact is that most British people feel their everyday threat in life comes from the Muslim population in Britain. Whether that threat can be proven in your stats is one thing, but in reality it's another. I know you're going to come back with a load of blah blah but hey, what's new?

I don't have any problems with people holding different opinions - I think we should be very tolerant of people who think the world is flat, Michael Jackson was an alien, Fox News is 'fair and balanced', the BNP isn't racist etc.

I also think that indeed people should be challenged when they give their opinions -eg. that 'singling out Muslims' is silly.

I just happen to believe that if a theory can be tested with evidence, then it should be. I don't say that everyone should give up their silly beliefs when the evidence shows the beliefs are silly - I just make the point that theories and beliefs that can be examined against facts should be.

My opinion is indeed that racism and Islamophobia and anti-Semitism are extremely distasteful and morally wrong. I think I'm entitled to that opinion. That opinion, though, has nothing to do with the fact that some beliefs are silly - when tested against facts.


Cheers,
Shafique

Do you all actually believe someone to alter their views, based on what "someone" posts in a forum ? seriously how deluded are you all , exactly ?

Hey - I did change my views when facts were presented on this forum.

I thought that Americans hated Muslims more than Jews - but when the evidence was provided (by eh) that showed that there were more attacks against Jews than Muslims (as recorded by the FBI) - I changed my view:

shafique wrote:Yes, can't argue with that.

See - the boy comes through after all. The FBI statistics do show indeed that in the US the yanks do commit more crimes against Jews (and Christians) than against Muslims.
..
But fair is fair, it appears that the Americans do hate the Jews more than they hate the Muslims - according to FBI stats. It shows that I shouldn't be so quick to judgement based on media reports - perhaps the US doesn't actually have as many people who share the Islamophobia of some of our posters as popular opinion would have it.

Thanks for providing the stats eh - fascinating to see that in the States it appears that a Muslim should feel safer than a Jew. I'm happy to join you in campaigning for greater safety for Jews in America - as this perfectly complements my stance against injustices committed against other groups in other parts of the world.

philosophy-dubai/difference-between-antisemitism-and-islamophobia-t40515-30.html#p326846

Rare - but does happen!

Now, back to the topic (and zubber - I generally agree with you - people don't tend to change their views!)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I generally agree with you - people don't tend to change their views!

Then I would like to advise all who hold this similar opinion to cease from going out of their way to convince people over what their convictions are.