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Bethsmum wrote:Kid, you can't see it, this person has said he worked with Herve, but how do you know it's the truth?
Yes, maybe VW can give more instances with DW.
Kid, I have seen how my Emirati friend and his family operate. One of his close relatives is on the board at one of Dubai's banks and something way up there in Nakheel. They are ruthless in the extreme and my experience is that if they turn their back on you there is nothing they wouldn't do to you. DW are seriously pissed with Herve and are so stubborn that they are not going to stop. Their lawyers in NY will just let them carry on as they are making big bucks. I just hope they get paid as Dubai hasn't got the best track record for paying their debts. Will DW be offering 50c in the $ to their lawyers I wonder?

well BM, I respect you as a person but if you are asking me not believe everything I read yet you are doing the same thing ... aaahhhh it make me wonder .

I appreciate your respect but what are you wondering Kid? Just say it I can't read your mind.

Bethsmum wrote:Kid, you can't see it, this person has said he worked with Herve, but how do you know it's the truth?
Yes, maybe VW can give more instances with DW.
Kid, I have seen how my Emirati friend and his family operate. One of his close relatives is on the board at one of Dubai's banks and something way up there in Nakheel. They are ruthless in the extreme and my experience is that if they turn their back on you there is nothing they wouldn't do to you. DW are seriously pissed with Herve and are so stubborn that they are not going to stop. Their lawyers in NY will just let them carry on as they are making big bucks. I just hope they get paid as Dubai hasn't got the best track record for paying their debts. Will DW be offering 50c in the $ to their lawyers I wonder?

BM, I'm sure the law firm that DW retained is working on a retainer basis. Pay as you go. A deposit (retainer) of $200,000 gets you $200,000 working time (which really isn't very much when you factor in everything they are being billed for everything). To continue with the case, retainers must be paid at least one month before the remainder of the previous retainer runs out. The law firm will only continue when the money is securely in the bank. As you said, with DWs international reputation of debt and failure/slow to pay pattern, no law firm would take on DWs case. It's a win-win for the law firm. In Herve's case, the firm is probably taking the case on a percentage basis (1/3 the settlement? or 40(law firm)/60%?)as well as suing DW to recover legal expenses. IMO, there has to be a very good case for the firm to take it on. If the law firm is unable to prove it's case they are out of pocket and it probably wouldn't have cost Herve a red cent. In the event DW should win, Herve is broke and you can't get blood from a stone and you don't go to jail if you are unable to pay.

Thanks for clarifing that Bora, you seem to know what you are talking about.

Bethsmum wrote:Thanks for clarifing that Bora, you seem to know what you are talking about.

You're welcome hon. I'm something of a legal eagle.

Bora, I have accessing PACE to read Herve's court docs. There is pages and pages of the stuff, claims and counter claims, motions to dismiss etc. What a mine field. How will a jury be able to work through it all I wonder? I wonder what the sealed documents contain?

Bethsmum wrote:Bora, I have accessing PACE to read Herve's court docs. There is pages and pages of the stuff, claims and counter claims, motions to dismiss etc. What a mine field. How will a jury be able to work through it all I wonder? I wonder what the sealed documents contain?

Possibly enough for another book?

I hope so Bora, Herve has said he will do some shouting when the case is over.

Can I give examples of cases similar to those of Herve, yes but it would be wrong of me to "out" people without their permission, most took the seizure of bank accounts, family homes, apartments, non payment of salaries and bonuses on the chin, signed what was asked of them and left the UAE, very angry but with the means to restart their lives elsewhere.

I know of 2 specific cases where Dubai World illegally seized employees (mortgaged) houses, and by illegally, I mean with no court order or order of the public prosecution. What they do is to use Group Internal Audit to file a case with the Police, arrest & seize the employees (and possible the wifes) passport then threaten them with (well you know the rest .... breach of trust, fraud, theft, embezzlement, forgery, witchcraft - pick one or make up your own combination) and present the employee with the possiblity of a 3 - 7 year jail term then they offer the employee the opportunity to sign over bank accounts & real estate, have the Police case dropped and passports return and a ticket out of the UAE.

Anyone that has spent more than 3 months in the UAE (and Dubai in particular) will know that you cant fight someone like DW in the Dubai courts, so they took the "deal" and left the UAE.

Actions like those described, fit somewhere between Duress, Coersion and unlawful enrichment in Western Law however once you have stripped someone of all their worldly assets its difficult to stump up $100k to fight a civil case against someone like DW in the west.

Back to Herve ...

So Kid rightly acknowledges that DW is angry that they spent $30M and saw no orders ... Whats the scoop with say for example, David Jackson, who is still living in his villa on the Palm .... ONE deal of his - not a whole business like Herve, one deal - Barney's. He staked his reputation and position on that turkey. DW spent $943 Million for an asset not worth at the time $600M. People I deal with value it today at less than $400M.

Its a bit simplistic, but to the man on the street that represents a loss, on paper, of over $500M on ONE deal. Wanna talk about MGM ... thats even MORE incestious. DW set up a Special Purpose Vehicle called Infinity World to buy into MGM Mirage in Las Vegas. Who do you think drove this, approved it & insisted it happened, yup it goes right to the top of the Dubai Government, and he used Sultan bin Sulayem as his puppet to complete the deal.

Paper loss over $3 Billion.

These are just a few examples ... the list is almost endless

I suppose the message is ~ fair enough that they got irritated at losses in subsidiary businesses, but to use the Dubai Police as a pseudo corporate division to arrest, extort and threaten select employees, and their families, in such a barbaric manner, yet permit insane losses by favoured individuals and senior local executives to go unpunished is to serously take the mickey out of representing DW as a global force in any form of business because as time passes the examples of their behaviour will come back to haunt them.

Viking brings up an important point namely that DW and associated gov entities (Dubai Holdings, Dubai Group, etc) employed individuals that lost far more money like Mr Jackson which makes Herve's loss from the sub business seem almost neglible. We are not even talking about expats they hired - there are guys like Soud Ba'alawy who ran Dubai Group - a total and utter failure of enterprise if there ever was one. Their CFO lost close to $1b on stocks and every single entity that formed part of the group (dubai financial, dubai insurance, private equity, etc, etc) was closed down with losses. Apart from the obvious question of what the chief financial offer was doing trading stocks my understanding from sources close to their operations was that there was widespread fraud across the organisation. What has the government done to bring those responsible to account? nada.

I have not read Herve's book nor have I looked through court documents hence I don't have a firm opinion of who is in the right or the wrong in this particular case but here is whats clear to me. Dubai entities (DW, DH, DG, DIC, etc) ventured into business's that they new nothing about and could not effectively supervize. They employed some smart knowledgable people but they also employed idiots and conmen that were given huge incentives to take crazy risks and embark of even crazier projects. Did they all these guys play by the book? No. Did any of these entities know what they were getting into? Unlikely. Did these entities cry foul when the projects/ventures did not succeed even if it wasn't the fault of the person in charge? Absolutely. In Dubai and in the rest of the world the senior guys (in this case emirati) have to play CYA (cover your arse) when the shit hits the fan - nothing new here. Guys like Jackson survived as I bet because it was clear his downfall would be closely followed by those still in power that had appointed him.

Joe, it is not clear from the Court documents who is right or wrong here. This is serious stuff, thousands of documents that are way above my head. I can only go with my gut feeling that Herve is totally innocent of all the charges DW are throwing at him.
And thanks VW for giving us all an insight to the workings of DW.

Bethsmum wrote:I hope so Bora, Herve has said he will do some shouting when the case is over.

Well, as many are expecting it, yes, but not by myself though, a Director is scheduled to start filming very soon. And kid, don't bother post on DF you wil not see it when it is released, we already know, Dubai Media Council won't allow it anyways.
After escape from new york and escape from LA, comes escape from dubai

Bethsmum wrote:Joe, it is not clear from the Court documents who is right or wrong here. This is serious stuff, thousands of documents that are way above my head. I can only go with my gut feeling that Herve is totally innocent of all the charges DW are throwing at him.
And thanks VW for giving us all an insight to the workings of DW.

I also feel Herve must be innocent, mainly because he is kicking up so much of a fuss over the issues. If I was guilty of swindling DW for millions I would be thankful for the escape and keeping a low profile. Herve seems determined to tell his story and protect his name, which would be uncharacteristic from someone planning to rip off and run.

Kanelli,
Didn't you read the bit that said Herve has nothing to lose. He's not motivated to clear his name. Anyone who matters to him eg: BM, Kanelli, VW and Benwj can see that the case against him in Dubai means nothing. He was living happily in the US, and DW had bigger problems to worry about than trying to get money out of someone in Florida who, claims to have no money to repay them anyway. he wasn't the first and he certainly won't be the last person to jump ship and leave Dubai to pay the bill with no jurisdiction to get the money back. I personally know several who have done it.
Herve raised the case against DW in the US and DW was forced to counter.
You also didn't read the bit: worst case scenario, herve loses, files for bankrupcy and moves to Panama.
Or herve wins and DW payup.
His reputation will be the same regardless of the outcome.

herve wrote:

Bethsmum wrote:I hope so Bora, Herve has said he will do some shouting when the case is over.

Well, as many are expecting it, yes, but not by myself though, a Director is scheduled to start filming very soon. And kid, don't bother post on DF you wil not see it when it is released, we already know, Dubai Media Council won't allow it anyways.
After escape from new york and escape from LA, comes escape from dubai

I look like this sultan guy so it will be good for the film maker to hire me for the roll, but I must get paid as much as sylvester stallone, I have the body I will enjoy kicking your .... untill the time of your escape

-- Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:09 am --

benwj wrote:Kanelli,
Didn't you read the bit that said Herve has nothing to lose. He's not motivated to clear his name. Anyone who matters to him eg: BM, Kanelli, VW and Benwj can see that the case against him in Dubai means nothing. He was living happily in the US, and DW had bigger problems to worry about than trying to get money out of someone in Florida who, claims to have no money to repay them anyway. he wasn't the first and he certainly won't be the last person to jump ship and leave Dubai to pay the bill with no jurisdiction to get the money back. I personally know several who have done it.
Herve raised the case against DW in the US and DW was forced to counter.
You also didn't read the bit: worst case scenario, herve loses, files for bankrupcy and moves to Panama.
Or herve wins and DW payup.
His reputation will be the same regardless of the outcome.

totally agree ,fair comment .

benwj wrote:Kanelli,
Didn't you read the bit that said Herve has nothing to lose. He's not motivated to clear his name. Anyone who matters to him eg: BM, Kanelli, VW and Benwj can see that the case against him in Dubai means nothing. He was living happily in the US, and DW had bigger problems to worry about than trying to get money out of someone in Florida who, claims to have no money to repay them anyway. he wasn't the first and he certainly won't be the last person to jump ship and leave Dubai to pay the bill with no jurisdiction to get the money back. I personally know several who have done it.
Herve raised the case against DW in the US and DW was forced to counter.
You also didn't read the bit: worst case scenario, herve loses, files for bankrupcy and moves to Panama.
Or herve wins and DW payup.
His reputation will be the same regardless of the outcome.

Benwj, as I mentioned no law firm would have taken Herve's case on which, I am sure it is based on a percentage settlement, unless they believed it was a valid case that they could win. The costs are going to be astronomical and no law firm is in it to loose and end up eating their own time. Winning is the only option for them. I don't think it's about the money for Herve. If he won the case and judgment was for DW had to pay him $1, the fact that they would have to pay would prove wrong doing, and I think that is what Herve's objective is. $1 or $10 million, the outcome would be in Herve's favor.

Yes, it was your input that I was referring to BB. I agree that the law firm would never had taken on the case unless they expected to win.
I don't know how much herve is asking for.
$1 to clear his name
$10 mill for the money
So which is it?

Bora -

If what you say is correct (that lawyers are working on a % basis) than that goes a long way to showing that Herve is in the right.

However I just question whether there are really astronomical costs involved with filing a case? From my personal experience its not cheap but the real costs are incurred in the last 6 months before court appearance (forgive me I don't know what stage this case is at). The actual filing and than the back and forth between lawyers with documents and letters are not that prohibitively expensive particularly if you are the party providing the majority of the documentation and making the accusations. 90% of cases never make it to court as that is the expensive part not only in terms of money but also reputation. The strategy in most cases by the claimant is to rattle the respondent until they agree to settle out of court.

In this particular case - how long ago was the case filed by Herve and has a court date been fixed as yet?

benwj wrote:Kanelli,
Didn't you read the bit that said Herve has nothing to lose. He's not motivated to clear his name. Anyone who matters to him eg: BM, Kanelli, VW and Benwj can see that the case against him in Dubai means nothing. He was living happily in the US, and DW had bigger problems to worry about than trying to get money out of someone in Florida who, claims to have no money to repay them anyway. he wasn't the first and he certainly won't be the last person to jump ship and leave Dubai to pay the bill with no jurisdiction to get the money back. I personally know several who have done it.

You also didn't read the bit: worst case scenario, herve loses, files for bankrupcy and moves to Panama.
Or herve wins and DW payup.
His reputation will be the same regardless of the outcome.

Benwj, forgive me for throwing a spanner in the works here but there is a major flaw in your post.

Herve raised the case against DW in the US and DW was forced to counter.

I'm afraid you are wrong.
Dubai World and it's subsiduraries, Exomos, Nakheel and Palm Marine are the Plaintiffs in the case, which was filed on 14 September 2009, Herve Jaubert and Seahorse Submarines are the defendants.
Herve filed his counter claim for Fraud, Abuse of process, False Imprisoment and Defamation on 16 October 2009.
So you see, Herve has little or no choice but to defend himself. It is not about the money he may or may not win, but about his reputation at the end of the day.
The trial is due to be heard before a jury on 14 February 2010 (i think that's the correct date) so the process is in the final stages.
As this is all public information available on the PACE website, I'm not disclosing anything here which is subject to Data Protection.

JoeTGF wrote:Bora -

If what you say is correct (that lawyers are working on a % basis) than that goes a long way to showing that Herve is in the right.

However I just question whether there are really astronomical costs involved with filing a case? From my personal experience its not cheap but the real costs are incurred in the last 6 months before court appearance (forgive me I don't know what stage this case is at). The actual filing and than the back and forth between lawyers with documents and letters are not that prohibitively expensive particularly if you are the party providing the majority of the documentation and making the accusations. 90% of cases never make it to court as that is the expensive part not only in terms of money but also reputation. The strategy in most cases by the claimant is to rattle the respondent until they agree to settle out of court.

In this particular case - how long ago was the case filed by Herve and has a court date been fixed as yet?

Joe, a client is charged for everything!!! Every second spent on a case by a lawyer is chargeable to the client. If a lawyer sends an email to another lawyer within the firm and that email takes all of 3 minutes, the charge will be 15 minutes at the lawyers hourly rate. So you have the sender billing his time and you have the receiver billing his time just to read the email (1/2 hour which probably could add up to minimum $200). Telephone call internally or externally - charged. Every piece of paper photocopied - charged per piece. Secretaries working OT, time charged to client. Legal assistants = creating a file - time charged. I'm sure Herve's law firm performed intense due diligence before going forward.

As for DWs law firm, as I said it's a win-win situation if they are working on a retainer basis. At the very least they collected money for representing DW, at the most, they would, more than likely, take a percentage of any award in favor of DW. Criminal lawyers will represent a client they believe to be guilty if it's financially worth it (retainer basis).

-- Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:14 pm --

benwj wrote:Yes, it was your input that I was referring to BB. I agree that the law firm would never had taken on the case unless they expected to win.
I don't know how much herve is asking for.
$1 to clear his name
$10 mill for the money
So which is it?

I don't think it's about money for Herve as he never mentioned it was about the money. What he has stressed it was about his name and reputation which should be important to anyone when your name and reputation has been smeared, especially when it has been spread internationally.

Herve may be asking for $10 million and the jury may knock it down to $10. Then you have the judge who may be able to override the reward and either up it or decrease it, but cannot dismiss it as the case was found in favor of Herve.

Fair enough Bora. I only meant that costs were less at the beginning. But I understand that lawyers have no trouble charging for every sec/min of time. They didn't earn a rep of being bloodsuckers for nothing - no offence meant.

A short documentary about Herve and his escape screened yesterday at a film festival. Soon to be followed by a film I hope.

JoeTGF wrote:Fair enough Bora. I only meant that costs were less at the beginning. But I understand that lawyers have no trouble charging for every sec/min of time. They didn't earn a rep of being bloodsuckers for nothing - no offence meant.

Oh, Joe. No offense taken. I'm not exactly a lawyer nor am I a bankster.

Herve's book has been honored as a "Finalist" in the "Multicultural Non-Fiction" category “Best Books 2010” Awards.

-- Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:54 pm --

Bora Bora wrote:

JoeTGF wrote:Fair enough Bora. I only meant that costs were less at the beginning. But I understand that lawyers have no trouble charging for every sec/min of time. They didn't earn a rep of being bloodsuckers for nothing - no offence meant.

Oh, Joe. No offense taken. I'm not exactly a lawyer nor am I a bankster.

Bora what's a bankster? Is it the same as a merchant banker?

uaekid wrote:

herve wrote:

Bethsmum wrote:I hope so Bora, Herve has said he will do some shouting when the case is over.

Well, as many are expecting it, yes, but not by myself though, a Director is scheduled to start filming very soon. And kid, don't bother post on DF you wil not see it when it is released, we already know, Dubai Media Council won't allow it anyways.
After escape from new york and escape from LA, comes escape from dubai

I look like this sultan guy so it will be good for the film maker to hire me for the roll, but I must get paid as much as sylvester stallone, I have the body I will enjoy kicking your .... untill the time of your escape

-- Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:09 am --

benwj wrote:Kanelli,
Didn't you read the bit that said Herve has nothing to lose. He's not motivated to clear his name. Anyone who matters to him eg: BM, Kanelli, VW and Benwj can see that the case against him in Dubai means nothing. He was living happily in the US, and DW had bigger problems to worry about than trying to get money out of someone in Florida who, claims to have no money to repay them anyway. he wasn't the first and he certainly won't be the last person to jump ship and leave Dubai to pay the bill with no jurisdiction to get the money back. I personally know several who have done it.
Herve raised the case against DW in the US and DW was forced to counter.
You also didn't read the bit: worst case scenario, herve loses, files for bankrupcy and moves to Panama.
Or herve wins and DW payup.
His reputation will be the same regardless of the outcome.

totally agree ,fair comment .

I'm surprised you agree to this Kid, you missed the fact that Herve didn't raise the case it was DW! Focus please!!

Please tell you don't look like Sultan! Kid, he is a proper minger! I had you down as looking like Sheikh Hamdan, now he's a bit of eye candy for the ladies. No no no, not Sylvest Stallone's body either, he's a well short ar$e.
I'm not really sure how you could be cast in Herve's movie? I'll have to have a think Do you have any lady friends who would like to try for role of eastern european ladies of ill repute aboard Sultan's yatch that Herve mentions in the book?
I have been thinking of who could play the role of Herve! I know Eric Cantona is a bit of a star lately, I met him once on an Air France flight, he was ok but I have a bit of a fancy for Mr Zidane. I've been a convert since I saw him on the Qatari World Cup bid, he's well fit. as is Mr Jaubert.

Bethsmum wrote:Dubai World and it's subsiduraries, Exomos, Nakheel and Palm Marine are the Plaintiffs in the case, which was filed on 14 September 2009, Herve Jaubert and Seahorse Submarines are the defendants.
Herve filed his counter claim for Fraud, Abuse of process, False Imprisoment and Defamation on 16 October 2009.
So you see, Herve has little or no choice but to defend himself. It is not about the money he may or may not win, but about his reputation at the end of the day.
The trial is due to be heard before a jury on 14 February 2010 (i think that's the correct date) so the process is in the final stages.
As this is all public information available on the PACE website, I'm not disclosing anything here which is subject to Data Protection.

Forgive me BM
I thought herve had previously explained that he raised the case against DW after they raised a case against him in Dubai
I stand corrected.

Bethsmum wrote:

Herve's Book.jpg

Herve's book has been honored as a "Finalist" in the "Multicultural Non-Fiction" category “Best Books 2010” Awards.

-- Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:54 pm --

Bora Bora wrote:

JoeTGF wrote:Fair enough Bora. I only meant that costs were less at the beginning. But I understand that lawyers have no trouble charging for every sec/min of time. They didn't earn a rep of being bloodsuckers for nothing - no offence meant.

Oh, Joe. No offense taken. I'm not exactly a lawyer nor am I a bankster.

Bora what's a bankster? Is it the same as a merchant banker?

A bankster is defined as being:

A portmanteau of the words "banker" and "gangster." These are intergral to the capitalist system. While the nightly news might have you believe that young black and latino men with 9mm's are the biggest threat to your life, banksters are far more dangerous. While a gangster might steal your posessions with a knife or a gun, a bankster will steal your possesiions with a pen, paper and "legal" (read "unjust") mumbo-jumbo snakeoil bullsh*t.

@ ahh I see! A bankster, that's a new one on me. There's me thinking it was the American version of the c0ck-er-ney rhyming slang for err, how can I say it on a public forum whilst keeping my lady like reputation...err oh yes, say it quickly 'Wayne Car'.

-- Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:00 pm --

benwj wrote:

Bethsmum wrote:Dubai World and it's subsiduraries, Exomos, Nakheel and Palm Marine are the Plaintiffs in the case, which was filed on 14 September 2009, Herve Jaubert and Seahorse Submarines are the defendants.
Herve filed his counter claim for Fraud, Abuse of process, False Imprisoment and Defamation on 16 October 2009.
So you see, Herve has little or no choice but to defend himself. It is not about the money he may or may not win, but about his reputation at the end of the day.
The trial is due to be heard before a jury on 14 February 2010 (i think that's the correct date) so the process is in the final stages.
As this is all public information available on the PACE website, I'm not disclosing anything here which is subject to Data Protection.

Forgive me BM
I thought herve had previously explained that he raised the case against DW after they raised a case against him in Dubai
I stand corrected.

No probs Benwj, I just wanted to keep the record straight, so to speak