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Don't want to take another thread off-topic so this is a new thread.

Bethsmum said,"...To be honest if I was aware that any interviewee was Muslim, I would do everything in my power to avoid employing them.. Muslims are difficult to deal with in a working enviroment..., wanting time of to pray and demanding different working times during Ramadan as if it was there God given right whilst the rest of us just have to get on with it ."

This is unfair bias. Funny how it is acceptable for employees to go for many cigarette breaks in a day, but if a Muslim wants to pray that is somehow inconvenient.

Many workplaces allow women time to go and pump breast milk, and allow flexible working hours to accommodate child care needs. Then there is maternity and paternity leave. Oh, that's right, that's' why many males don't hire female employees either...

In a Muslim country like the UAE, companies regularly allow their Christian staff to take some vacation time off around Christmas, and those of other religions are able to take vacation time off for their special days. That's what vacation days can freely be used for by any employee, why not Muslims?

Of course people have to adapt if they are living in a predominately "other" religious environment, so I highly doubt that Muslims expect to have everything in their workplace as it would be if they were working in a predominately Muslim country.

Let's be sensible and have more compassion for the needs of all groups of employees in companies.

*setting up camp*

K, I agree with you with regards to muslim countries. However, sadly we are not seeing people 'adapting' in other countries. Muslims are wanting to enforce their ways. Classic examples are coming out of the UK, refusing to have anything to do with any other religions, banning anything to do with pigs, demanding praying time and shorter working hours during ramadan, changing exam times and dates to avoid the 'fasting' period, segregating swimming pools - the list is endless.

They can ask, but it doesn't mean they are going to get all of it. Look at how many women ask for flexibility for maternity, milk pumping and flexible hours, or even a daycare on work premises. Not all of those things are accommodated everywhere, but there is no harm in trying. Do you think women have a lot of cheek to ask for these things, and that they are ruining the standard patriarchal work culture and infrastructure in workplaces with their demands?

As far as I know, Muslims don't need to change their exam times and dates because it is allowed to make up any missed fasting days, so they are able to eat on days that they have important exams. Are these demands make by a few fringe folks and/or reported in some of those dodgy UK news rags?

Sadly K, the DEMANDED and got it! Because in the UK, the looney PC brigade bow down to the minorities and don't give a hoot about everyone else.

Its not like brits trying to demand stuff here, like boinking on the beach, or getting sloshed in public or flouning around in panties. And then getting really cross and throw a hissy fit when they get called on it !

desertdudeshj wrote:Its not like brits trying to demand stuff here, like boinking on the beach, or getting sloshed in public or flouning around in panties. And then getting really cross and throw a hissy fit when they get called on it !

That's not demanding anything DDS, that's just rubbish behaviour - don't compare in the slightest, also other nationalities are just as bad, stop finger pointing at the Brits all the time, it gets tedious.

Chocoholic wrote:K, I agree with you with regards to muslim countries. However, sadly we are not seeing people 'adapting' in other countries. Muslims are wanting to enforce their ways. Classic examples are coming out of the UK, refusing to have anything to do with any other religions, banning anything to do with pigs, demanding praying time and shorter working hours during ramadan, changing exam times and dates to avoid the 'fasting' period, segregating swimming pools - the list is endless.

Chocs I agree and if you voice an opinion against them they shout RACISM from the highest tree. The UK is too politically correct for it's own good, in so much that Christians are made to feel like second class citizens in their own country. The trouble with a lot of Muslims is that they are Muslims first and British second. I have said it before that they are not happy unless they are shoving their religion in your face.
Sorry if this offends anybody but this is the way lots and lots of people think, they are just afraid to say it should they be classes as racist. It's a shame people just can't say what they really think and not have to pander to the PC brigade.
As for giving women time off to breast feed and mump milk, that is another ridiculous suggestion made by the British government lately. If a woman chooses to work, then work and don't ask for special treatment. Smokers should be treated the same, if you want to smoke, do it on your own time, and then we are all equal.

K, religion should not be brought into the workplace, the same way personal problems are not welcomed in the workplace. Employers have obligations to employees, and vice versa. Accommodating religious practice is not an obligation that an employer has to fulfill. If Muslims are adament about being able to practice during working hours then best they find an employer who will accommodate them, rather than go into a job and make demands that impact non-Muslims.

There was a time when Jewish employees observed all the Jewish holidays, which totalled about 1/3 the year. Eventually employment laws in the US changed to give equal time off to all employees, not time off based on religious beliefs. For many years, the law is if you want to observe a religious holiday you are required to use vacation time.

In the US I worked in a law firm where secretaries who had children were allowed to leave early because they had to do shopping for the new school season, christmas shopping, or some other child-related reason. They always left after they came back from lunch so that it didn't qualify as a half-day. Secretaries had 3 or 4 assignments and when that woman left early, her work was distributed for others to do. Then you had pregnant women who left early because of this or that. I highly doubt that at the end of the year the extra work that was picked up didn't factor into the bonus. If I don't have children (which is not to say I don't!) why should I be penalized and be expected to do someone elses job?

When you compare the time taken by smokers, what about those that don't smoke and sit on the phone half the day, or leave their desk to chat up with someone, or take a coffee break, or an extended lunch or when they don't have work, sit on the computer with FB, DF or play games? It all balances out in the end.

-- Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:40 pm --

Chocoholic wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Its not like brits trying to demand stuff here, like boinking on the beach, or getting sloshed in public or flouning around in panties. And then getting really cross and throw a hissy fit when they get called on it !

That's not demanding anything DDS, that's just rubbish behaviour - don't compare in the slightest, also other nationalities are just as bad, stop finger pointing at the Brits all the time, it gets tedious.

Chocs, haven't you figured him out yet? Every time he opens his mouth its all about what he doesn't like, what he does hate, nationality bashing. I think it would be easier for him to make a list of those things he likes, rather than those he doesn't. It would probably consist of 3 things. Hopefully wifey makes the list above the rattletrap he drives.

They are vying for fist place but its a close call, haven't made up my mind yet

I agree with K on this one generally.

I think employers are already forced into giving too much time off to too many people for too many reasons but if you are giving it to pregnant women, mums, disabled people than I don't think its right to exclude muslims for praying/fastin. In fairness my industry is not really impacted by this as muslims are expected to work the same hours and can't leave early because of ramadan - it just doesn't happen and if anyone was to try and invoke it they would see it in their payscale and promotion pretty quickly. I have worked with some brilliant muslim traders as well as some pretty poor ones - I prefer to judge them each on their intelligence and capabilities rather than their religion.

Your are right BM that there is a considerable majority of muslims in the UK that see themselves as muslim first and british second. The UK has offered immigrants (many of them muslim) a lot in terms of welfare, eduction and jobs and I think that many of them forget that there lives and those of their children are far better than they would have been in pakistan or bangladesh. I think they would do well to recognise this fact and show more loyalty to the UK in general. But don't judge the entire muslim race by the majority. I have had the pleasure of meeting muslims in the UK are aware of how "lucky" they are and are proud to be british - so much so that they support england in cricket.

Joe, IMO employers should not accommodate religious practice/belief. In the US an employer cannot ask a potential employee what their religion is as it is personal and does not have any bearing on the individual to perform their job. As does marital status, age, children, or any other personal information. People are hired on their ability to do the job and adhere to company policy. Employers are responsible to provide fair and equal treatment to all, no exceptions.

If an employer has a cafeteria and Muslims or Jews objected to pork and ham being served, should those products be removed to accommodate a select group and deny another? If a Christian brings a pork or ham sandwich to work for lunch and eats it in the cafeteria and Muslims or Jews find it offensive, should the Christians be asked not to, to accommodate a select group? What if Jewish people demand that food be kosher in a work place? Muslims demand food be halal in a work place? Where does it stop? If employers are made to accommodate one group, they would then have to accommodate everyone else who makes demands based on religious belief. These are all part of religious practice/belief.

You mention accommodating handicapped people. I am all for it. These are people who overcame a handicap and are productive, self-sufficient individuals and I have the greatest respect for them.

kanelli wrote:Don't want to take another thread off-topic so this is a new thread.

Bethsmum said,"...To be honest if I was aware that any interviewee was Muslim, I would do everything in my power to avoid employing them.. Muslims are difficult to deal with in a working enviroment..., wanting time of to pray and demanding different working times during Ramadan as if it was there God given right whilst the rest of us just have to get on with it ."

This is unfair bias. Funny how it is acceptable for employees to go for many cigarette breaks in a day, but if a Muslim wants to pray that is somehow inconvenient.

Many workplaces allow women time to go and pump breast milk, and allow flexible working hours to accommodate child care needs. Then there is maternity and paternity leave. Oh, that's right, that's' why many males don't hire female employees either...

In a Muslim country like the UAE, companies regularly allow their Christian staff to take some vacation time off around Christmas, and those of other religions are able to take vacation time off for their special days. That's what vacation days can freely be used for by any employee, why not Muslims?

Of course people have to adapt if they are living in a predominately "other" religious environment, so I highly doubt that Muslims expect to have everything in their workplace as it would be if they were working in a predominately Muslim country.

Let's be sensible and have more compassion for the needs of all groups of employees in companies.

This is nonsense. Why can't you just take the prayer time out of your lunch time? That's what people do at where I work. I've never come across people, in the UK that is, wanting to finish at different times during Ramadhan. Then again, people stop fasting here at around ~7pm.

brucebanner wrote:This is nonsense. Why can't you just take the prayer time out of your lunch time? That's what people do at where I work. I've never come across people, in the UK that is, wanting to finish at different times during Ramadhan. Then again, people stop fasting here at around ~7pm.

Excellent point , and technically feasible

JoeTGF wrote:Your are right BM that there is a considerable majority of muslims in the UK that see themselves as muslim first and british second. The UK has offered immigrants (many of them muslim) a lot in terms of welfare, eduction and jobs and I think that many of them forget that there lives and those of their children are far better than they would have been in pakistan or bangladesh. I think they would do well to recognise this fact and show more loyalty to the UK in general. But don't judge the entire muslim race by the majority. I have had the pleasure of meeting muslims in the UK are aware of how "lucky" they are and are proud to be british - so much so that they support england in cricket.

Joe I'm a bit of a strange one in that I have so many conflicting feelings on this one. On one hand I have a very good Muslim friend who, although he does try to boss me about, is a real sweetie. On the other hand my very lovely daughter was taken advantage of, when she was in a very vunerable state after a serious illness (I won't bore you with the story that I have told on DF before) by a dodgy Pakistani doctor who she married and his religious fanatics split my family apart. I'm not proud to say I hate his guts. Yes, he was very lucky indeed.

Understand where you are coming from BM. I guy called Shane beat me up when I was at school and even now when I hear that name or get introduced to someone of that name I find it harder to like them. Its hard to seperate our personal events from the larger association. For breaking up your family I hope that pakistani doctor rots in hell.....but not all pakistani doctors.

FYI - I had a girlfriend called Beth (well Elizabeth)...only fond memories.

And now you wished your wife never reads this forum !

I was 12 years old bud

Refer to my last post in the women thread !

JoeTGF wrote:Understand where you are coming from BM. I guy called Shane beat me up when I was at school and even now when I hear that name or get introduced to someone of that name I find it harder to like them. Its hard to seperate our personal events from the larger association. For breaking up your family I hope that pakistani doctor rots in hell.....but not all pakistani doctors.

FYI - I had a girlfriend called Beth (well Elizabeth)...only fond memories.

It wouldn't been so bad, Joe, but he wasn't even a plastic surgeon, at least he would have been some use in BM's declining years.

FYI my Beth is a Bethany, named after a nice town in Isreal.

-- Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:09 am --

desertdudeshj wrote:And now you wished your wife never reads this forum !

DDS, BM's little munchkin, I hadn't realised you were married till quite recently. Maximum respect to that poor woman

So in the interviews in UAE do they ask abt religion? or they just guess it based on people's names or nationality?
Well I was born Muslim, but I dont know myself as muslim anymore, so I wanna know which is my category?

This is unfair bias. Funny how it is acceptable for employees to go for many cigarette breaks in a day, but if a Muslim wants to pray that is somehow inconvenient.

Perhaps you should have thought of asking BM if she would hire smokers before going off at her like that?

This isn't about the hiring practices of employers in general, but just one, BM.

If BM says she would hire smokers but not Muslims without giving any follow up explanation, then you might have a point.

kanelli wrote:Don't want to take another thread off-topic so this is a new thread.

Bethsmum said,"...To be honest if I was aware that any interviewee was Muslim, I would do everything in my power to avoid employing them.. Muslims are difficult to deal with in a working enviroment..., wanting time of to pray and demanding different working times during Ramadan as if it was there God given right whilst the rest of us just have to get on with it ."

...

Out of interest, Bethsmum, what's your take on working with Muslims? Do you try to get them fired?

I'm still in shock from reading the quote.

melika969 wrote:So in the interviews in UAE do they ask abt religion? or they just guess it based on people's names or nationality?
Well I was born Muslim, but I dont know myself as muslim anymore, so I wanna know which is my category?

Yes they do, when I was questionned by the police they asked me my religion. They had a sever problem when I told them I did not have one. Did you know that no having a religion is a crime in Dubai? it is, regardless of the religion, not having one is like denying there is any gods.
I ran a company with 250 employees, I never had a problem with anyone in relation of their religions, never had to ask about religion because it was in the CV's and during ramadan the company was up and working only thanks to the non muslims, the only religion problem that happened during my tenure was when I decided to give a day off to my Christians emplyoyees on Christmas, it was as if I had declared a war on the UAE!
I have to say to second Bethsmum that the worst candidates I ever had to interview were Emirati's.
It is so true that no one wants to hire an Emirati, and as a result, a law came up to make it mandatory (Emiratisation)
2 weeks ago I was at a book fair in Miami, Muslims were all over the place to give away free Kurans along booths promoting Islam, and I was thinking that if anyone would try to give away free bibles in Dubai he would go to prison for 4 years!

... it was as if I had declared a war on the UAE! I have to say to second Bethsmum that the worst candidates I ever had to interview were Emirati's...

I would like to add that the abhorrent attitude which you faced is quite similar in some if not all the GCC countries. This behavior is an epidemic in this region. KSA being the worst of the lot.

It is so true that no one wants to hire an Emirati, and as a result, a law came up to make it mandatory (Emiratisation)

Localization is also occurring everywhere in the GCC. Theoretically if the arabic governments wanted it they can give a week's notice to all foreigners to get out. But we all know what would happen if that occurs.

2 weeks ago I was at a book fair in Miami, Muslims were all over the place to give away free Kurans along booths promoting Islam, and I was thinking that if anyone would try to give away free bibles in Dubai he would go to prison for 4 years

, haha Indeed the middle east is infested with darconian laws and with a laughable administration, The most amusing part of this comment is that you actually are comparing the US to a middle eastern country. I would never even dream of making such a comparison.

brucebanner wrote:

kanelli wrote:Don't want to take another thread off-topic so this is a new thread.

Bethsmum said,"...To be honest if I was aware that any interviewee was Muslim, I would do everything in my power to avoid employing them.. Muslims are difficult to deal with in a working enviroment..., wanting time of to pray and demanding different working times during Ramadan as if it was there God given right whilst the rest of us just have to get on with it ."

...

Out of interest, Bethsmum, what's your take on working with Muslims? Do you try to get them fired?

I'm still in shock from reading the quote.

Why are you shocked Bruce? That I dare to say what lots think? By the way I only speak for myself but I hear my opinion voiced by many like me. No Bruce, I wouldn't try to get a Muslim fired, why would I do that? What I am saying is that if I was involved in the recruitment process they wouldn't get a look in. I'm sorry if that offends you but that's the way it is. By the way, there are no Muslims in my office (around 30 people) only white British people and (as far as I know) no Muslims in the organisation (maybe 200 people, not sure of the exact figure) I live in an area of England that has very very few ethnic minorities. The organisation doesn't practice discrimination against Muslims or any other minorities, it's just the way it is. I have to jump thro hoops to HR to show I have given the job to the most qualified person. In my experience you have to be very careful when dealing with Muslims in the UK. As Joe says, not all, just some. Er on the cautious side is what I practice.

I.e : Basically a bigot

Bigot : A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

I prefer realistic. You changed your post DDS! You said I was xenophobic originally!
Bigot? whatever, i don't really care what others think of me. I'm comfortable with the way I think and feel. If I am a bigot then I fit well into Emirati society as the Emiratis are the most racist of people I have ever come across.

DDS, we all become the result of our experience at the hand(s) of individuals from cultures and creeds that we come across in our lives. I grew up in the Gulf and had a great time, but on returning to the UAE in my 40's got a nasty shock and as a result utterly despise what it has become, the people there and the indigenous population and in particular the ruling elite who use people like you or I use toilet paper.

If that makes me a bigot the fair enough, I am a bigot, but then so are you, in light of your comments about loud mouthed drunken Englishmen and women who make jiggy jig on the beach and have feral children, BM does have a point and its a point that is being driven home every day in the UK - not in so much that we are force fed what to do, but in that we are being forced into a corner in what we are NOT allowed to do or say.

This is going to backfire and if history shows us nothing else, then is shows us that the silent majority do not like to be forced to cow tow to the vocal minority, and there comes a time when sense and sensibility go out the window and the gloves come off.

Take the recent wikileaks hoo ha, all the gulf leaders calling for the US to take out Iran !!! Frankly if they had ONE just one set of nuts between them then they would do it themselves but no, they want the US and ultimately the UK to do it for them, gimme a break, get off the fence, pick a team, buy a season ticket and enjoy the spoils of victory or lick your wounds in defeat, but at least you would have taken part.

Thats not a rant at you DDS - its directed at the lily livered khaleeji elite who seem overly eager to have the west lay down our soldiers lives in the cause of ............ what exactly ? Regional despots ?

So no, its not silly to single out Muslims, I am not singling them out nor asking them to differentiate themselves, they do it all by themselves

I still see a lot of bias here from some of you. I have never said that everyone should get more free holiday time than other employees because of their religious holidays - it can come out of their vacation time - the same number of holiday days as everyone else gets.

Again, if someone can go and take a smoke break in the day, why can't someone go and pray? It isn't anyone's business what they are doing. For some reason some of you are perfectly fine with people who smoke, but are biased against those who pray. I have no idea how Ramadan would affect anything in a workplace. Muslims go to work every day like they usually do and break fast after sunset like they usually do. Why would they need any exceptions or special arrangements? Why are some of you so resistant to accommodating what is possible and what is still fair to others?

Women should be allowed a break for pumping breast milk and be allowed some flexibility in work time, and so should fathers if there is a situation where children need to be cared for. Employees are not robots and companies who treat their staff like that will have higher turnover and major problems with motivation and work performance. Employees are human beings.

Maybe we shouldn't hire people with allergies either... My mom's office has a highly sensitive person so no one can wear heavily perfumed cosmetics, perfume and cannot use air fresheners in their offices etc.

Where does it end? What kinds of questions should we be asking in interviews? Cripes!

-- Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:13 am --

herve wrote:

melika969 wrote:So in the interviews in UAE do they ask abt religion? or they just guess it based on people's names or nationality?
Well I was born Muslim, but I dont know myself as muslim anymore, so I wanna know which is my category?

Yes they do, when I was questionned by the police they asked me my religion. They had a sever problem when I told them I did not have one. Did you know that no having a religion is a crime in Dubai? it is, regardless of the religion, not having one is like denying there is any gods.
I ran a company with 250 employees, I never had a problem with anyone in relation of their religions, never had to ask about religion because it was in the CV's and during ramadan the company was up and working only thanks to the non muslims, the only religion problem that happened during my tenure was when I decided to give a day off to my Christians emplyoyees on Christmas, it was as if I had declared a war on the UAE!
I have to say to second Bethsmum that the worst candidates I ever had to interview were Emirati's.
It is so true that no one wants to hire an Emirati, and as a result, a law came up to make it mandatory (Emiratisation)
2 weeks ago I was at a book fair in Miami, Muslims were all over the place to give away free Kurans along booths promoting Islam, and I was thinking that if anyone would try to give away free bibles in Dubai he would go to prison for 4 years!

So what Herve? You were living in a predominately Muslim country, so why wouldn't the office get light around Muslim holidays? If it were in a Christian country the office would get light around the Christian holidays too. Perhaps some Muslims would be the only ones left working because they didn't observe the Christian holidays.

And so what if Muslims in Florida were giving out free copies of the Quran? They are Americans and in America people are free to do that. Why does it matter that you can't distribute lots of Bibles in the UAE? I really don't see how that is relevant.