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The Human Incarnation—Avatara or God-in-flesh
God in a form?

-- Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:26 am --

My opinion:

Most religions cannot accept the concept of God with a form. Further, some religions do not allow the acceptance of God in a human form. Yet, every religion agrees to the fact that the Lord is all-knowing and all-powerful. If this is true then He who is beyond all forms, can take up any form by His Will. If there is even a single form that He cannot take up, then He is not all-powerful. Therefore, one must accept that the Lord can take up even the human form. He can take up a human form and come to earth as a human being. Such a human being is called the human incarnation of God or an Avatara. Not only that the Lord is capable of incarnating in human form but He has also done so in every age and continues to do so even today. He alone came to the world as all the prophets and human incarnations of the Lord (Avataras) in the past.

Dattaswami - thanks for taking the comments on board and posting this interesting question/topic.

Islam is one of the religions that does indeed take the view that God does not take a form, indeed the greatest sin in Islam is to worship something besides God - i.e. idol worship. Muslims are taught that God does not take on physical forms.

I agree, logically an omni-potent God could choose to take the form of any of His creations. He could decide to walk the earth as a man (or other life form or inanimate object).

The Bible does say that God took human form - the first instance is in Genesis 18 where God visits Abraham with 2 angels. Therefore Jews who take the Bible literally will agree with your view that God can take a human form.

Christians, in addition, believe that Jesus was not just Son of God (or Son of Man) but part of the Trinity and God made flesh. So they too would agree with you that God has manifested himself on earth.

In Islam, the Quran does mention manifestations of God - however these are viewed as metaphorical.

For example in 8.17 God says that it was He who threw the pebbles at the Meccans when what everyone at Badr saw was that it was the Prophet, pbuh, who threw the pebbles.

When one reaches the state of 'Nafse Mutmainah' - the state of 'soul at rest', one becomes the manifestation of God - in that we do only what God wills. Through our earthly actions we reflect what God is and wants us to be - but we are not literally God. The Prophets were 'manifestations' of God in this sense - but not actually God.

Perhaps it is just the language that separates the various views on the subject?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Dattaswami - thanks for taking the comments on board and posting this interesting question/topic.


When one reaches the state of 'Nafse Mutmainah' - the state of 'soul at rest', one becomes the manifestation of God - in that we do only what God wills. Through our earthly actions we reflect what God is and wants us to be - but we are not literally God. The Prophets were 'manifestations' of God in this sense - but not actually God.

Perhaps it is just the language that separates the various views on the subject?

Cheers,
Shafique

Interesting reply, Thanks...

God comes in human for by entering His most deserving devotee known as 'Son of God'.

God is unimaginable, invisible and beyond human logic. Such God comes to this world by entering a most deserving devotee existing on the earth. Just like current entering in a wire.

Human incarnation is thus a 2-in-1 system in which God and Son of God exists in the same human body and God or Son of God seperately exists and do not convert into other.

The God exists in the human incarnation from birth to death of the human incarnation and preaches wonderful divine knowledge through the mouth of the human incarnation. If God speaks from heaven then tension and anxiety will be created and people will not listen the divine knoweldge due to excitement. Hence God uses the most natural process of coming in human form. The Son of God has become fully the servant of God, so that it is the God who speaks through the mouth of Son of God-the divine knoweldge.

The unimaginable God possess a human being, who is a deserving devotee selected by God to become a member of His inner most circle. Just like the current enters a metallic wire, the unimaginable God enters an imaginable item of creation, which is always a human being. Here the current is not transformed in to the wire. Current did not become the wire. Current only entered the wire. The wire is the medium of current. Similarly, God is not transformed in to human being or God did not become the human being (Avyaktam vyaktimaapannam—Gita).

God only entered the human being, which is a medium only as said in Veda (Tadevanupravishat) and Gita (Manusheemtanumaashritam). Some times, God may enter the human being from its birth and stay in it till its death and such human incarnation is called as Purnaavatara. Some times God may enter the human being for some purpose and when the work is over, God will leave it and such human incarnation is called as Aveshaavatara like Parashurama. In any case, the human incarnation can be treated as God as long as God stays in it. The metallic wire is called as current as long as current flows in it. This does not mean that the wire became the current or current became the wire. Therefore, neither God became the human being nor the human being became God. If you are not understanding the concept of human incarnation, you will mistake the human being possessed by God, who claims Himself as God.


When the human incarnation(God in Human form who comes to this world for preaching; is a combination of a human being and God) says that he is God, it means that God in human incarnation is stating that and it is not the statement of the human being present in the human incarnation. People mistake this statement as the word of human being since God is invisible. Every statement of the human incarnation is attributed by normal public to the visible human being and not to the invisible God. Therefore, people should recognize God in the human being in the case of human incarnation before understanding its statements. Otherwise, the statements of human incarnation lead to confusion and misunderstanding, which may sometimes result in insult (Avajanantimaam—Gita) or even torture and killing as in the case of Jesus. In order to avoid this confusion in the case of normal human beings, Mohammad denied the very concept of human incarnation.

Just after Jesus, the 41st prophet, Mohammad, the 42nd prophet, appeared and the subject of misunderstanding the statements of human incarnation was the burning topic. The God component in the human incarnation, Jesus, stated that He is the truth and light. This statement clearly says that He is the absolute God and such statement is straightly from the God-component only. Since people could not recognize the existence of God in a human being due to the absence of knowledge of the concept of human incarnation, people misunderstood this as the statement coming from an egoistic human being and therefore insulted and finally crucified Jesus. Since the concept of human incarnation could not enter the brains of people, all this calamity happened. People could have excused Jesus, if He declared Himself as a prophet or messenger at least. When the concept does not enter the brains of the people in spite of hectic effort of Jesus, Mohammad thought that it is better to remove the concept temporarily and be in line of the public.

Thanks for the explanation.

There's little I can disagree with, if I look beyond the word 'incarnation' and look at what you're describing. The concept of God directing a human being from birth and influencing what they say and do.. is indeed a concept that I recognise in Islam.

Islam, though, also teaches that every worshipper (indeed every human) CAN establish a direct relationship with God. We are taught to pray to Him alone for guidance and help. Ordinary people can communicate with God - and God answers prayers. In the Quran, God says he is closer to us than our jugular veins - and he answers prayers.

Thus, the 'manifestation' of God in Prophets etc is just a more complete version of the communication that ordinary mortals can also establish.

I can't see where you advocate worshipping mortals, or 'incarnations of God' - which would be something forbidden in Islam. But as long as we take the messages of the prophets and pray to God in the way Jesus and Muhammad (etc) taught (and indeed Krishna, and even Buddha) - then we find ourselves all worshipping the creator of the universe and respecting those He has sent with His message.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Thanks for the explanation.

There's little I can disagree with, if I look beyond the word 'incarnation' and look at what you're describing. The concept of God directing a human being from birth and influencing what they say and do.. is indeed a concept that I recognise in Islam.

Islam, though, also teaches that every worshipper (indeed every human) CAN establish a direct relationship with God. We are taught to pray to Him alone for guidance and help. Ordinary people can communicate with God - and God answers prayers. In the Quran, God says he is closer to us than our jugular veins - and he answers prayers.

Thus, the 'manifestation' of God in Prophets etc is just a more complete version of the communication that ordinary mortals can also establish.

I can't see where you advocate worshipping mortals, or 'incarnations of God' - which would be something forbidden in Islam. But as long as we take the messages of the prophets and pray to God in the way Jesus and Muhammad (etc) taught (and indeed Krishna, and even Buddha) - then we find ourselves all worshipping the creator of the universe and respecting those He has sent with His message.

Cheers,
Shafique

The unimaginable God is invisible to even your imagination and therefore can never become visible to your eyes. He is always unimaginable since He has no spatial dimensions. Such state of God maintains the greatest and highest status. Since, such God is never modified to become any imaginable item of creation, His highest dignity was always maintained. The human incarnation does not mean the modification of God into human being. The human being is only an extra medium or house for God to stay to accomplish the divine primary purpose of preaching the true spiritual knowledge.

The human incarnation does not mean also God staying in human body(only human body without a soul). It is only a visit of king to the hut, while the owner of hut (the soul=Son of God) also exists along with the king (God) to serve him and get his grace. Veda says that two birds live on a tree and one bird is shining without eating while the other bird is eating the fruits (Dvaasuparnaa……). This means that God has nothing to do with the fruits of the deeds of the human being while He stays in that human body.

The insult of Parashurama ( a previous human incarnation in which God was present) was the fruit of his own ego and God in him has nothing to do with it. Therefore, God is neither transformed in to human being nor even entangled with the fruits of the human being, even though He stays along with the human being in His human body. The king has nothing to do with the crimes of the owner of hut, since the king stayed in it for some time. In fact, the king himself is going to punish the owner of hut for his crimes. God staying in the body of Parashurama only punished Parashurama for his ego. Therefore, the God is not polluted in any way by becoming the human incarnation. God remains impartial to every human being and will not spare even the human being associated with Him in the human incarnation.

Of course, the human being in the human incarnation will be separately rewarded for his service to God. A student will be given gold medal for his excellent performance in the examination but will not spared from the disciplinary action for his wrong behavior. The human being in the human incarnation is as good as any other human being in the world either in the case of reward for his service or in the case of punishment for his sin. The sin will never be excused by the prayers or good deeds, which will have separate rewards. Ravana was rewarded with miraculous powers for his worship and penance. But, he was punished by God for his sin towards Sita separately.

dattaswami wrote:The unimaginable God is invisible to even your imagination and therefore can never become visible to your eyes. He is always unimaginable since He has no spatial dimensions. Such state of God maintains the greatest and highest status. Since, such God is never modified to become any imaginable item of creation, His highest dignity was always maintained. The human incarnation does not mean the modification of God into human being.

This is exactly what I believe. The Quran is clear that the life after death is unimaginable - indeed, I think it is because we don't have the senses to experience it. We will be a different type of life form and have different senses.

It would be like trying to describe what colour is to a blind person. They can't know what colour is, but you can make allusions/metaphors that make some sense to them (eg. Red is a 'hot' colour). However, without the sense of sight, they cannot 'know' what colour is. Similarly we cannot explain or imagine what the next life will be like.

God is even more remote, and hence even more 'unimaginable'.

The human being is only an extra medium or house for God to stay to accomplish the divine primary purpose of preaching the true spiritual knowledge.

Man therefore needs examples and parables - which is how I view the other explanations you give.

Have you studied Islam and compared it with your beliefs. In what way would you say they are different (given this core belief about the nature of God appears to be the same as mine?)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

dattaswami wrote:
God is even more remote, and hence even more 'unimaginable'.

,
Shafique

God is unimaginable, but that God came in human form by entering His servant.
The original God, having no spatial dimensions, is beyond space. If you want to see such original God, you have to cross the space. In doing so, you have to reach the boundary of the space. Unless you cross the boundary of Andhra Pradesh, you cannot enter Tamilnadu. If you reach the boundary of Andhra Pradesh, you can see Tamilnadu from there. Similarly, if you reach the boundary of space, you can see the original God starting from that boundary. But, space is infinite and hence its boundary can never be achieved. If the original God has spatial dimensions, it means, the space is in God. It means, you have not achieved the boundary of space. Your intelligence can never cross the spatial dimensions and can never go beyond space. This means, your intelligence can never imagine the original God.

Intelligence is the highest faculty having the power of imagination after thorough analysis. Any amount of logical analysis of intelligence fails to imagine the original God. Veda says this (Namethayaa….,Naishaatarkena….). There is no need of saying that lower faculties like mind, life etc., fail to imagine the original God. Life has very dormant power of thinking. Mind has the power of thinking but cannot analyze anything. Veda says that God generated the space. If God has spatial dimensions, it means that God has space. In such case, space exists in God even before its generation. This contradicts the statement that God generated the space. The mud generated pot. The pot is not in the mud before its generation. This is the starting point or foundation of the spiritual knowledge.

Datta - I get the impression that the above response was just cut and pasted from somewhere.

Is this a correct assumption?

I was more interested in your answer to my question in the previous post - I think we've established that we both agree with the belief that God is unimagineable.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Datta - I get the impression that the above response was just cut and pasted from somewhere.

Is this a correct assumption?

I was more interested in your answer to my question in the previous post - I think we've established that we both agree with the belief that God is unimagineable.

Cheers,
Shafique

God is uniamginable and no way we can se Him, but such invisible God comes by entering a most deserving devotee and come to us, other wise people will become atheist. When GOd comes likes that He is not modified into the body in which He entered. He just entered the human being for most serious job of preaching and uplifting. God alone knows about Himself and He alone can preach about Him self, hence this serious job has to be done by God alone, Hence He comes in human form. By this facility, we can touch Him, see Him, co-live with Him and clarify all our spiritual doubts. Ordinary preachers cannot preach about GOd since they are not human incarnations. Only GOd can preach, and there is a necessity of Him coming to this world, which is twisted by wrong interpretation of scritpures by vested interests.

You objection about GOd coming in human form can be easily clarified.

The Lord is not modified into the human body like milk changing into curd. The Lord only enters the human body like the electric current entering a wire. The Lord is beyond even your imagination and is called ‘avyakta’ (unmanifest). He cannot be achieved by any human effort. But the kind Lord enters the human body and comes down as a human incarnation. The Gita says the same (Manusheem tanumasritam, Avyaktam vyaktim apannam). This incarnate Lord can be seen and touched. You can talk with Him and live with Him. The Lord is only in two states:

1) Avyakta (unmanifest): He cannot be touched even by imagination.

2) Vyakti (manifest): He enters a human body and pervades all over the human body.

In between these two states there is no state in which the Lord is available. All this creation is only a modification of His power called ‘Maya’. By touching the Maya you cannot touch Him. The base of Maya is the Lord; like the person in the shirt. By touching the shirt you cannot touch Him. The sacred thread worn by priests consists of three strings, which means that you must catch the human form of the Lord, which is made of the three qualities. Maya is His mind and the world is the modification of His mind.

Neither the world nor Maya, which is the power pervading all over the universe, can give you the touch of the Lord. The threads of the shirt are like the Maya. The wrinkles of the shirt are the various items of this world.
You cannot say that the Lord as avyakta (unmanifest) is formless. He is beyond your imagination and you cannot say whether He has form or not. The formless power is Maya, which is modified into various forms of the world. People who meditate upon the all-pervading power are only touching the Maya and not the Lord who is the base of Maya.

Again, thank you for the explanation.

May I just repeat - I agree with your concept about what 'God in human form' represents (that it is not really God taking human form).

The questions I asked were:

shafique wrote:Have you studied Islam and compared it with your beliefs. In what way would you say they are different (given this core belief about the nature of God appears to be the same as mine?)

Or do you think that our concepts of God are different? If so, how are they different (in your opinion).

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Again, thank you for the explanation.

May I just repeat - I agree with your concept about what 'God in human form' represents (that it is not really God taking human form).

The questions I asked were:

shafique wrote:Have you studied Islam and compared it with your beliefs. In what way would you say they are different (given this core belief about the nature of God appears to be the same as mine?)

Or do you think that our concepts of God are different? If so, how are they different (in your opinion).

Cheers,
Shafique

Islam do not believe in God coming in human form rather they believe that God sends messgener and messenger just deliver the divine knowledge as given to Him. They do not belive that God is present in such messenger and God speaks the knowledge through the mouth of the messenger.

Basically if you compare ultimately the divine knowledge is coming from GOd only through the mouth of the messenger.

There is one difference in both the approach. In the messenger case, God is treated different from messenger.

In the case of human incarnation, God is present in the messenger and the messenger is a slave to God and HENCE it is the GOd who speaks through the mouth of the messenger-the divine knoweldge. Hence when the messenger is alive on this earth, for all practical purpose, He is God Himself, since He has no seperate will than the will of God.

By such analysis, the human incanration who is infront of us in human form is GOd Himself and real devotees can touch, see, talk and colive with God and PRACTICALLY SERVE GOD, since GOd is associated with life. Thus if you give one glass of water to Human incarnation who is alive infront of you, you have given water to God. When you give some money for the propagation of divine knoweldge to the present human incarnation, infact you have given money to the God who is present in the human incarnation. Thus the devotees who wish to see Him, touch Him and co-live with Him will get full satisfaction here itself in this world.

By this procedure, your practical love to God is proved. When God in huamn form is with you like any other human being, then your love to Him is tested compared to your love to family and other worldly things. Thus your love or bond with God in human form is practically tested. Since you have to now show more love to God in human form than your relatives.

This is the fire test when you serve Present Alive Human form of God.

Past human forms of God cannot talk to us. Jesus cannot talk to us, Mohammad cannot talk to us, the way did when they came years ago.

God is impartial and He give opportunity to every generation people the same way He did when He came years ago as Jesus, Mohammad etc...

Thus present human incarnation is the subject of discussion here. Present human incarnation can alone speak to us, can alone discuss with us, can alone clear all our spiriutal doubts by proper interpretation of scripture, since He is the author of all the scritpures of the world in which past human incarnations preached. The same GOd exists in past huamn incarnation and present huamn incarnation.

Present human incarnation is the only relevant medium for us to get the correct true divine knowledge...

Ahh - I see.

Islam teaches that God answers prayers of worshippers - and indeed sends revelations to people (not just Prophets).

Are you saying that it is ONLY via 'human-incarnations of God' that God can communicate with humans?
(I just want to clarify this specific point).

If so, then this is a clear difference between Islamic theology and the beliefs you've explained.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Ahh - I see.

Islam teaches that God answers prayers of worshippers - and indeed sends revelations to people (not just Prophets).

Are you saying that it is ONLY via 'human-incarnations of God' that God can communicate with humans?
(I just want to clarify this specific point).

If so, then this is a clear difference between Islamic theology and the beliefs you've explained.

Cheers,
Shafique

God is not speaking from Heaven, if He does then tension and anxiety will be created in the minds of devotees. Suppose God speaks from heven by appearing in an energetic body (light) then people first will get fear and tension and will not hear the message properly due to excitement. Also God do not apper in such energetic form for a long time. Also this opportunity one may get after doing long penance etc. Hence any case preaching of God coming in energetic form is not universal. In front of Mosses God appeared in energetic form and gave the commandments.

But when there is a natural alternative God follows that method. Nature is a creation of God. All natural rules and founded by God. He is the rule maker. A rule maker do not want to disturb His own natural rules. Hence whenever there is a natural means He adopts it.

The most natural means is to enter a servant of God and come in human form so that God can be with the devotees for a long long time and clarify all their doubts directly without any excitement or tension. Devotees can touch, see, and co-live with God since God is also present in the same medium as they are in that is human body. Thus it is very practical and most beneficial facility which God Himself adopt to interact with His people on this earth.

Some people say that in vision they have seen God in energetic body and spoken to him etc. What is the validity for that? That person may be a mental patient who knows...

When there is a natural alternative God follows it. The most natural way is to come in human form just like an ordinary humanbeing without any specaility and mingle with people. But God is there in such Human form and the evidence is the wonderful divine knowledge He preaches.

God can give intution to some devotees, but those are very very rare and GOd mainly talks to His people the divine knowledge; by coming in Human form.

For any transaction common medium is the best. It is unnecessary and wastage of time and effort to try to see God in the medium of energetic form. For such a divine vision lot of severe penance has to be done. You have seen the same God in another medium called as energy. Is it not wastage of time and effort to try to see a person in a silk shirt, when the same person is appearing before you in the cotton shirt? The person is important and not the shirt. There is a saying which states that one caught a small rat after digging a big hill. Some people try to imagine God embedded in the pure awareness, which is the finest form of energy. Such form of energy is very very subtle and can be perceived only by imagination. The pure awareness is only the costliest shirt.

Therefore, the time and effort you have concentrated on the meditation to perceive God in such costliest shirt through your mind is the climax of wastage of your time and effort. The penance to see the energetic form and the meditation to imagine God in pure awareness are unnecessary efforts because you can see the same God in the human body of the Human Incarnation.

Moreover, the human body is very very clear for the vision. The energetic form cannot be seen by the naked eyes. Only by special energy granted by the Lord, the eyes can see such energetic form. The internal eye which is the mind can only imagine the form of pure awareness. Moreover, touch is not possible in the case of the forms of energy as well as awareness. Conversation with the form of pure awareness is very much subtle and unclear. The conversation with the energetic form can take place but that is also limited to a few seconds only. The energetic form is highly unstable and is subjected to diffusion. The entropy of the energetic form is very low and the spontaneity is towards the increase in entropy. Therefore, a long conversation is not possible with energetic forms. The energetic form appears for a few seconds only and grants the boons for the penance and disappears immediately by the process of diffusion.

Such energetic form is not at all convenient for co-living

Dattaswami wrote:God can give intution to some devotees, but those are very very rare and GOd mainly talks to His people the divine knowledge; by coming in Human form.

For any transaction common medium is the best.

What is your opinion of the claim of the Quran to be the literal word of God - i.e. a direct verbal message sent to humankind. Is this not a common, accessible medium that is well-safeguarded, in your opinion?
:

O ye people, a manifest proof has indeed come to you from your Lord, and We have sent down to you a clear light. 4.174

Islam's view of God is that He is the one we pray to and He answers prayers:
2.186

And when My servants ask thee about Me, say: ‘I am near. I answer the prayer of the supplicant when he prays to Me. So they should hearken to Me and believe in Me, that they may follow the right way.’

And He is close (not distant):
50:16

And assuredly, We have created man and We know what his physical self whispers to him, and We are nearer to him than even his jugular vein.

Given that you view Muhammad, pbuh, as a messenger (or manifestation?) of God - then does that not mean that the book he says is God's literal words should be taken at face value (in the verses above, at least)?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

shafique wrote:And when My servants ask thee about Me, say: ‘I am near. I answer the prayer of the supplicant when he prays to Me. So they should hearken to Me and believe in Me, that they may follow the right way.’

Shafique

[/quote]


This is very interesting one. Very good one for discussion. In the verse it is said that 'when My servants' .

Who are His servants?

His servants are those who love Him the most and work for Him. Not any X, Y, Z or of any X, Y, Z of any religion including Islam also.

For example, you yourself can test whether you are a real servant of God.

If you really pray for a AIDS person to cure then as per the above statement that person to whom you have prayed should get the cure immediatly, provided if you are 'Servant of God'. If you try the result is that that AIDs person will not get cure why? Because you are not servant of God.

Mohammad was servant of God, Jesus was servant of God, Shankara was servant of God.

Anther example i will give you:

Govindabhagavatpada, the preacher of Shankara jumped from the top of hill announcing that if God is the author of Veda, he will be protected. He was protected because his statement was from God. If every fellow utters this and jumps from hill, he will die since the statement is from the devotee and not from God, even though the statement is true. You should not embarrass God by such foolish statements even though they are true. If God states through you, He will certainly act through miracle. You are the best judge of the source of your statement since your inner consciousness knows the truth very well. If the statement is from God, you will utter it forcibly and spontaneously.

Satan challenged Jesus to turn the stones into breads by the grace of God if God is really omnipotent. Really God is omnipotent and God can turn the stones into breads in no time. But Satan provoked Jesus to do the miracle and God is not involved in this issue directly. Jesus replied to Satan stating that one should not test God through miracles. Jesus did several miracles to change several human beings in to devotees. When the devotee deserves the miracle, it was done spontaneously. Satan doesn’t deserve the miracle and God does not wish to do the miracle for the sake of Satan. Jesus grasped the will of God and did not force God to do the miracle. Even if He forces God will not do the miracle. He acted as a devotee to preach this point to devotees.


Thus servant of God means the one who has fully surrendered to God and he has not other will other than God's will,

Are you a real servant of God??.....

Real servant of God are LIBERATED SOULS WHO DO NOT HAVE ANY ATTACHMENT TO RELIGION, CASTE, CREED, FAMILY, CHILDREN, NATION, LANGUALGE, they are His beloved not any X,Y and Z......