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Also its is becoming common practise for people to have medcial checks done to see of any genetic disorders and I'm not talking Emaratis here. Just because your not related does not mean either one or both are not carrying anything in their DNA.

True, Im not sure but I think in Iran it is even a law that if cousins want to get married they MUST go through medical checks.

As I mentioned earlier, in Islam they are rules and restrictions on relationships even in families.
“Mahrams” (As you might call them immediate relatives are mother, grandmother, daughter, granddaughter, niece, aunts. ( they are some other like mother’s aunts etc etc which I m not going through them here).

Islam restricts relationships with others out of this circle, and as you can see cousins are not in this group. So there cannot be close friendship with cousins like what they have with their siblings, and as culture is affected so much by religion, marrying cousins is just like marrying outsiders.

Abt the benefits ( which I don’t really believe in) rather than cleaning the gene pool, they say as the know the family very well, it can prevent the couple from future problems.

melika969 wrote:Marrying immediate relatives(Sisters, aunts, nieces etc etc) are prohibited and immoral in our societies. Cousins don’t fall into that category, firstly because they are not "Mahram" in religion, so that means people cannot get into very close relationships with them ( religious practice) therefore they are not close as immediate family. I hope you all understand that religion plays a big role in cultures here, and it s a basis for all relationships.

If you don’t feel comfortable about marrying a cousin, you are entitled to your opinion and I dont care about what people in most countries do. It s not mandatory for all countries to have same raditions! Besides definitely I m not defending this practice and as I said it s not that common anymore in Iran. But u people as total strangers to the cultural practices, cannot just come out with arrogant comments like " It is immoral".



PS. Hey TJ, thanks for greetings, I was around , just didnt feel like posting!

Melika, you just answered your own question of why Westerners view marrying first cousins as 'immoral'.

You just said that marrying your brother/sister in the Islamic world (and everywhere else) is seen as 'immoral'.

Now, can you quantify or qualify immorality when it comes to two consenting adults? I mean, you could say it's bad for genetics, but let's say the brother/sister couple never reproduce.

So, who's a victim here? Who is being hurt by their 'immorality'? I don't think you could say that that type of relationship is actually immoral if you consider it. Now, is it gross in your eyes?

Well, yes. You already said so. So, you have to understand that for the same reasons why sister/brother relationships are repugnant to you, that is how most Westerners view relationships involving first cousins.

When people marry their first cousin, for me that's nearly the same as if they married their brother or sister.

And I think you need to understand that's where most Westerners are coming from when they express their feelings regarding those marriages.

I had no question abt it event horizon, I understand why westerners cant accept it and That s why I explained the relationships restrictions.

I want westerners to at least try to understand the cultural practices here, before coming up with comments abt "immorality".

Mel, if you want to continue to use the word "immoral" then keep in mind that if a westerner says it is immoral they are basically saying it is against the laws of nature, and to a westerner's thinking it means going against the laws of nature in that you don't marry family and cousin is - in the western world - very much family - they, to a degree, share the same DNA.

-- Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:59 pm --

Mel, if you want to continue to use the word "immoral" then keep in mind that if a westerner says it is immoral they are basically saying it is against the laws of nature, and to a westerner's thinking it means going against the laws of nature in that you don't marry family and cousin is - in the western world - very much family - they, to a degree, share the same DNA.

With all do respect to everyone opinion and culture I believe arranged marriage is not a thing to worry about bcz its not done by force, it's more like picking up the right family than picking up a man and that’s relative to newly married having to live in the same big family house. Moms are protective toward their daughters and don't want a mother or a father in law who is known for his or her aggressiveness handling their daughters or giving her constant trouble, but again that use to be in the past among small communities, girls know pick their won at work for example. But even in the past relatives also new each other including those young ones who are about to be married, it use to be a girl thing to have a crush on her cousin or the neighbor boy .

The girls can always say yes or no when she talks to him before the marriage, and to my opinion ,the girl does not have to be a test drive to 20 men before one of them decides to marry her, girls always complains about "I'm not getting any younger" right? From what I know, girls spend years finding the "right one" but they'll have to suffer tremendous heart feelings of break ups of one boyfriend to another, not to mention losing years with one boyfriend waiting for him to pop the question or get slammed with "honey .. we have to talk :

It's not you ,its me !
We need some time alone !
We have to see other people !
This is not doing it for me !

Today women can talk and set with their future husbands so what is the different ? dating or going out ? not a big deal really, but I guess its more of a se*x thing .

And yes close relatives marriage is wrong in terms of health issues but it is not related to arranged marriage , it use to be in the past bcz of small communities in the region .the awareness of he issue is more now than before.

Bora Bora wrote:Mel, if you want to continue to use the word "immoral" then keep in mind that if a westerner says it is immoral they are basically saying it is against the laws of nature, and to a westerner's thinking it means going against the laws of nature in that you don't marry family and cousin is - in the western world - very much family - they, to a degree, share the same DNA.

-- Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:59 pm --

Mel, if you want to continue to use the word "immoral" then keep in mind that if a westerner says it is immoral they are basically saying it is against the laws of nature, and to a westerner's thinking it means going against the laws of nature in that you don't marry family and cousin is - in the western world - very much family - they, to a degree, share the same DNA.

And there is something wrong to be sesually attracted by your cousin, I just can't imagine that, it is repulsive, pervert.
And let s not forget the missing point, here, where there is arranged marriage, there is no seduction, no romance.
Seduction and worshiping of a woman are totally absent in the middle east.

Bora Bora wrote:Mel, if you want to continue to use the word "immoral" then keep in mind that if a westerner says it is immoral they are basically saying it is against the laws of nature, and to a westerner's thinking it means going against the laws of nature in that you don't marry family and cousin is - in the western world - very much family - they, to a degree, share the same DNA.

Morals are nothing to do with the laws of nature, morals and ethics are concerned with or derived from the code of behaviour that is considered right or acceptable in a particular society, so what is acceptable in one is not necessarily acceptable in another and I think that’s Mel’s point.

herve wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:Mel, if you want to continue to use the word "immoral" then keep in mind that if a westerner says it is immoral they are basically saying it is against the laws of nature, and to a westerner's thinking it means going against the laws of nature in that you don't marry family and cousin is - in the western world - very much family - they, to a degree, share the same DNA.

-- Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:59 pm --

Mel, if you want to continue to use the word "immoral" then keep in mind that if a westerner says it is immoral they are basically saying it is against the laws of nature, and to a westerner's thinking it means going against the laws of nature in that you don't marry family and cousin is - in the western world - very much family - they, to a degree, share the same DNA.

And there is something wrong to be sesually attracted by your cousin, I just can't imagine that, it is repulsive, pervert.

using the world "pervert" in a serious debate is considered being pervert in our societies, not marrying cousin!

"pervert" is an adjective, to name someone with an abhorrent behavior, naming one is certainly not being one

Dillon wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:Mel, if you want to continue to use the word "immoral" then keep in mind that if a westerner says it is immoral they are basically saying it is against the laws of nature, and to a westerner's thinking it means going against the laws of nature in that you don't marry family and cousin is - in the western world - very much family - they, to a degree, share the same DNA.

Morals are nothing to do with the laws of nature, morals and ethics are concerned with or derived from the code of behaviour that is considered right or acceptable in a particular society, so what is acceptable in one is not necessarily acceptable in another and I think that’s Mel’s point.

Thank you Dillon, but my post was directed to Mel. I think it would be considerate of you to let Mel respond and let me and other people know what her point is if she wants to elaborate or clear it up, rather than you do her thinking and speaking for her, as she is quite capable of doing it herself.

I might add that the words "moral" and "immoral" and their meaning and usage are broad. But we will save that for another day. Therefore what you think Mel is saying could be correct, or possible wrong, or very wrong. I guess we have to wait until Mel weighs in.

Your comments are directed at the person which are in contravention to forum policy and most unwelcome, kindly keep your comments restricted to the subject matter and not the poster! and you being a mod as well

I could wear the delete/edit button out using it on you if I was a mod in the General forum.

And let s not forget the missing point, here, where there is arranged marriage, there is no seduction, no romance.
Seduction and worshiping of a woman are totally absent in the middle east.

Reading abt you and your book I was really impressed by what you have done, but it seems like you actually have no clue abt what you talking here!

Roamce is not absent, I know lots of men who worship their wives even in an arranged marriage. It doesnt mean they have to be successful relationship all the time, but the partners dont need to know too much abt each other to fall in love!

Why do you think they ask the girls opinions abt the guy? to know more abt the feeling. well as they are not exposed to much relationships before marriage, their feelings are not that complicated!

If you really are interested to know more I suggest you to read abt romance and literature here.

Bora Bora wrote:I could wear the delete/edit button out using it on you if I was a mod in the General forum.

Fascist

-- Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:46 pm --

Bora Bora wrote:I might add that the words "moral" and "immoral" and their meaning and usage are broad. But we will save that for another day. Therefore what you think Mel is saying could be correct, or possible wrong, or very wrong. I guess we have to wait until Mel weighs in.

I beg to differ, there is nothing broad or ambiguous in the Oxford English Dictionaries.
Moral, adjective, concerned with the principles of right and wrong behaviour with no mention of the laws of nature, that one must have popped in your parallel world bora, have you seen someone about this?

Bora Bora wrote:

Dillon wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:Mel, if you want to continue to use the word "immoral" then keep in mind that if a westerner says it is immoral they are basically saying it is against the laws of nature, and to a westerner's thinking it means going against the laws of nature in that you don't marry family and cousin is - in the western world - very much family - they, to a degree, share the same DNA.

Morals are nothing to do with the laws of nature, morals and ethics are concerned with or derived from the code of behaviour that is considered right or acceptable in a particular society, so what is acceptable in one is not necessarily acceptable in another and I think that’s Mel’s point.

Thank you Dillon, but my post was directed to Mel. I think it would be considerate of you to let Mel respond and let me and other people know what her point is if she wants to elaborate or clear it up, rather than you do her thinking and speaking for her, as she is quite capable of doing it herself.

I might add that the words "moral" and "immoral" and their meaning and usage are broad. But we will save that for another day. Therefore what you think Mel is saying could be correct, or possible wrong, or very wrong. I guess we have to wait until Mel weighs in.

"immoral" to me is to practice sth which is against right and wrong principles in the society and it s highly related to ethics, so It is a very sensitive issue here, Im not sure abt west!

And the silence was deafening! What's up bora? nothing to add to Mel's revelations? no further comments?
Just how I like it

Dillon wrote:And the silence was deafening! What's up bora? nothing to add to Mel's revelations? no further comments?
Just how I like it

Why should she add sth? Me and Bora can have different opinions and discuss it, why do you feel there is a need to add sth here?

Oh boy ! I think a lot of what is being preached is not being practised here.

melika969 wrote: Reading abt you and your book I was really impressed by what you have done, but it seems like you actually have no clue abt what you talking here!

Roamce is not absent, I know lots of men who worship their wives even in an arranged marriage. It doesnt mean they have to be successful relationship all the time, but the partners dont need to know too much abt each other to fall in love!

Why do you think they ask the girls opinions abt the guy? to know more abt the feeling. well as they are not exposed to much relationships before marriage, their feelings are not that complicated!

If you really are interested to know more I suggest you to read abt romance and literature here.

Melika, where is the seduction when the woman is "brought up" to the groom, seduction is a chase, an effort to gain another woman affection, that does not happen in an arranged relation, it s all fixed. How a woman can be seduced when she is covered up head to toes and when no interaction with another man in public is allowed.
I dont know where you are from, I dont know about romance in Pakistan or Iran, I do know in Dubai, for what I heard from Emirati women directly, there is none, or when there is it lasts 3 months, or does not pass when the Emirati meets his 2nd, 3rd, 4th wife, and that s not including the "temporary" wives.
I never saw an Emirati buy flowers, it is the other way around, the woman has to bring a dowry, look carefully who goes to the flower shops, only expats, and I know from a UAE Custom official that they restrict import of flowers during St Valentine, the reason being that Emirati's do not want to be embarrassed at their women when they see how expatriates show romance to their women.
You want to know about romance? talk to an Italian or a French, trust me you ll learn a little more than from an Emirati.

herve wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:Mel, if you want to continue to use the word "immoral" then keep in mind that if a westerner says it is immoral they are basically saying it is against the laws of nature, and to a westerner's thinking it means going against the laws of nature in that you don't marry family and cousin is - in the western world - very much family - they, to a degree, share the same DNA.

-- Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:59 pm --

Mel, if you want to continue to use the word "immoral" then keep in mind that if a westerner says it is immoral they are basically saying it is against the laws of nature, and to a westerner's thinking it means going against the laws of nature in that you don't marry family and cousin is - in the western world - very much family - they, to a degree, share the same DNA.

And there is something wrong to be sesually attracted by your cousin, I just can't imagine that, it is repulsive, pervert.
And let s not forget the missing point, here, where there is arranged marriage, there is no seduction, no romance.
Seduction and worshiping of a woman are totally absent in the middle east.

I agree Herve, I really just couldn't imagine being remotely sexually attracted to my cousins. The thought of being sexually involved with a person who shares the same grandparent is repulsive. A lot of people are brought up so closely to their cousins, they really could be sisters and brothers.
I was talking about this to a friend at work and she agreed, we then got to talking about Facebook and she said she had been looking for a friend who had moved to Australia some years ago. it turns out her friend has a brother who lives locally. I asked her why she just doesn't give him a ring and ask for her friends address. She dismissed that idea as the brother was a bit 'funny'. Funny, I asked, what do you mean, oh just 'funny'. Of course I couldn't let that one go and when I persisted she said that her friend had moved to Australia because when she lived at home she found out that her brother had erected some sort of 'device' to be able to watch his sister in the bathroom. OMG, how ing. What is the matter with some people? How could you find anyone that closely related sexually exciting. Totally perverted.

Bora and Dillion please keep your beef out of threads. If you do this in General Forum i will not move to FC i will do the following.

Unfortunately i am a Mod here and if it needed i will enforece you both to take a short break from DF.

I am not interested and dont care who said what or whose fault is.

drewpeacock wrote:I listened to a chat about arranged marriages on the radio at the weekend.

Are the men who support this cultural issue perverse?

It was OK for him to make his own choice of partner, but a real no goer for his sister. How hypocritical.

Opinions?

Really? Well maybe they believe that women are easily way-led and as such are more prone to making bad decisions? But ye kno with multiculturalism and globalization certain checks and balances are probably necessary.
But significantly a survey would paint a clearer picture. Are a majority of women regretting their marriages, do they feel it a burden or are they happy? I think that would be more telling as opposed to a belief system whereby we merely think that because the west upholds something, then it must be the "right" thing.

At the end of the day let's admit it Love is bloody overrated!
And I personally believe the heart is so fragile, that love is always a possibility.... with anyone, so long as time is on ur side and few certain strings are always tugged

arniegang wrote:Bora and Dillion please keep your beef out of threads. If you do this in General Forum i will not move to FC i will do the following.

Unfortunately i am a Mod here and if it needed i will enforece you both to take a short break from DF.

I am not interested and dont care who said what or whose fault is.

Cheers.

arniegang wrote:Bora and Dillion please keep your beef out of threads. If you do this in General Forum i will not move to FC i will do the following.

Unfortunately i am a Mod here and if it needed i will enforece you both to take a short break from DF.

I am not interested and dont care who said what or whose fault is.

That's really quite hilarious coming from you. You are quite plainly a nasty individual who can't be trusted to moderate himself, never mind preach to anyone else. What did gezza say about you? was it something like 'Arne, I expected more'. Get off your high horse fool.

It is hilarious that any of us are commenting on others when we have all been behaving badly and breaking good forum etiquette, including you BM.

Seriously, can we all stick to the thread subject?!!!

herve wrote:

melika969 wrote: Reading abt you and your book I was really impressed by what you have done, but it seems like you actually have no clue abt what you talking here!

Roamce is not absent, I know lots of men who worship their wives even in an arranged marriage. It doesnt mean they have to be successful relationship all the time, but the partners dont need to know too much abt each other to fall in love!

Why do you think they ask the girls opinions abt the guy? to know more abt the feeling. well as they are not exposed to much relationships before marriage, their feelings are not that complicated!

If you really are interested to know more I suggest you to read abt romance and literature here.

Melika, where is the seduction when the woman is "brought up" to the groom, seduction is a chase, an effort to gain another woman affection, that does not happen in an arranged relation, it s all fixed. How a woman can be seduced when she is covered up head to toes and when no interaction with another man in public is allowed.
I dont know where you are from, I dont know about romance in Pakistan or Iran, I do know in Dubai, for what I heard from Emirati women directly, there is none, or when there is it lasts 3 months, or does not pass when the Emirati meets his 2nd, 3rd, 4th wife, and that s not including the "temporary" wives.
I never saw an Emirati buy flowers, it is the other way around, the woman has to bring a dowry, look carefully who goes to the flower shops, only expats, and I know from a UAE Custom official that they restrict import of flowers during St Valentine, the reason being that Emirati's do not want to be embarrassed at their women when they see how expatriates show romance to their women.
You want to know about romance? talk to an Italian or a French, trust me you ll learn a little more than from an Emirati.

Well it seems like after all my efforts(!!) some of you dont want to learn about differences between cultures.

Talking abt romance and relating it to France or Italy is overrated. FYI, being romantic can have different ways other than buying flowers! maybe if you try to extend the limit of your thoughts, you can think abt other presents, poems, loyalty etc etc. But apprently your mind is too poisoned and biased against middle east.
Enough said!

p.s. Im from Iran.

-- Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:27 am --

Bethsmum wrote:

herve wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:Mel, if you want to continue to use the word "immoral" then keep in mind that if a westerner says it is immoral they are basically saying it is against the laws of nature, and to a westerner's thinking it means going against the laws of nature in that you don't marry family and cousin is - in the western world - very much family - they, to a degree, share the same DNA.

-- Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:59 pm --

Mel, if you want to continue to use the word "immoral" then keep in mind that if a westerner says it is immoral they are basically saying it is against the laws of nature, and to a westerner's thinking it means going against the laws of nature in that you don't marry family and cousin is - in the western world - very much family - they, to a degree, share the same DNA.

And there is something wrong to be sesually attracted by your cousin, I just can't imagine that, it is repulsive, pervert.
And let s not forget the missing point, here, where there is arranged marriage, there is no seduction, no romance.
Seduction and worshiping of a woman are totally absent in the middle east.

I agree Herve, I really just couldn't imagine being remotely sexually attracted to my cousins. The thought of being sexually involved with a person who shares the same grandparent is repulsive. A lot of people are brought up so closely to their cousins, they really could be sisters and brothers.
I was talking about this to a friend at work and she agreed, we then got to talking about Facebook and she said she had been looking for a friend who had moved to Australia some years ago. it turns out her friend has a brother who lives locally. I asked her why she just doesn't give him a ring and ask for her friends address. She dismissed that idea as the brother was a bit 'funny'. Funny, I asked, what do you mean, oh just 'funny'. Of course I couldn't let that one go and when I persisted she said that her friend had moved to Australia because when she lived at home she found out that her brother had erected some sort of 'device' to be able to watch his sister in the bathroom. OMG, how ing. What is the matter with some people? How could you find anyone that closely related sexually exciting. Totally perverted.

if you really are interested to learn why sisters and cousins have very much different places in ME, go read my posts abt relationships in Islam again!

I just read an article where an indian guy kicked a dog and felt immediate remorse.

His only way of making up was to marry the dog.

WTF! Where does this stand in the marriage circle of life?

Just goes to prove that some men will marry right old dogs I suppose.



Knight

Mel, it's not about not wanting to learn about different cultures, but the way many of us have been brought up, marrying another member of your family is just wrong, scientifically it's wrong, morally it's wrong. Bearing in mind that for us, our cousins are as close to us as a brother or sister - so it really just is a nasty thought.

Also the idea of marrying someone you've never met is quite horrific. I want to get to know a person, to spend time with them, to live with them, before I'd even consider taking that step.

The announced marriage of Prince William and commoner, Catherine Middleton will be the first free marriage, (not-arranged) of a heir to the throne in Great Britain since Anne Hyde, who secretly married the future James II in 1659. The most famous, or infamous, commoner to marry a current Monarch was Wallis Simpson, for whom Edward VIII gave up the throne in 1936.

Lets hope this new bloodline will invigorate the existing Royal bloodline and resolve the premature male balding issue and the fact that their eyes are far too close together.