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Given the generous offer by eh to describe the proper procedures for the trials of Witches according to US Christian interpretation of the Bible - I thought I'd start a new thread on the subject.

event horizon wrote:

you seem to be trying to hard to avoid answering the question about what the Bible does actually state about Witches, what to do with them etc.

Hardly, I'm happy to point out that certain procedures are to be followed for the accused witch.

Thanks, I'll take you up on the offer - can you also give me the Biblical references that these are based on.

I'd like to see how exactly the African Churches are doing things differently from the way the Bible is interpreted by Christians in the US, and for example, the US Christians who carry out exorcisms. (I also have a question about the historic witch trials - eg Salem - and whether the US Christians there had a different interpretation of the Bible from US Christians of today).

So - what are the procedures for trying witches in the Bible according to US Christians?

Do the Witches get spiritual defence attorneys and have their rights read to them by the witch police?

Cheers,
Shafique

How would Muggles know?



Knight

If you are serious about a theological discussion, the references to witches would be in the Torah (Old Testament) which is recognised by Jews and Christians as being laws which were meant to be applied to a particular group of people at a particular time.

I am seriously looking forward to event horizon's explanations - he says there are 'certain procedures' that should be followed in the trials. I am indeed interested in the theological basis for witch trials and would like to compare them with the ones being carried out in Africa by the Christian Pastors there (in the other thread).

DK - Muggles will be the ones holding the trials! I want to know how they detect the witches!!

(Unless, of course, the young one is one of them and can tell us how the ministry of magic works over there?!)

Cheers,
Shafique

Yes, the Hebrew Bible is similar to the Koran and says that any accusation against a person must be 'investigated thoroughly' and that a minimum of two witnesses must testify against the accused.

That's similar to hand chopping and other punishments, drinking alcohol, gambling (including sorcery in Islamic Law) etc., though I don't know if those found guilty of 'spreading mischief through the land' would need two witnesses to convict them - perhaps the Islamic state can carry out cross amputations without any witnesses?

I'm also wondering how many witnesses are needed to imprison women for life if they are found guilty of 'whoredom'.

I presume at Bible class they taught you that the Hebrew Bible came a long time before the Quran?

So, c'mon stop teasing - let us have what the 'certain procedures' for a witch trial are according to US Christian interpretation of the Bible (and how it is different from those being carried out by the African Christian Pastors in the other thread).

Was Arthur Millers 'The Crucible' a good description of proper etiquette of Witch Trials? (for example)

And don't forget to give us the Biblical references for these 'certain procedures'.

Cheers,
Shafique

I thought I explained to you that a literal reading of the Hebrew Bible for sinful actions is not much different than what the Koran says - minus the 'home' confinement for whoredom, hand chopping for theft and cross amputation and crucifixion for 'mischief making' (the Iranian authorities recently have convicted numerous anti-regime protesters under as per that verse of the Koran for 'waging war against Allah').

So, your question should probably be why the Islamic Republic of Iran is wrong to implement cross amputations against political protesters. Indeed, a straight forward reading of the Koran certainly does throw some legitimacy towards the Iranian authorities who sentenced the corrupters of Iranian society, wouldn't you agree?

Also, you should probably have put this thread in the religion section where this goes. I can understand being a moderator and all, it must be confusing for you to start threads in the appropriate forums and all.

So, c'mon stop teasing - let us have what the 'certain procedures' for a witch trial

I told you, the procedures are a thorough investigation (as the Bible says) including the testimony of at least two or three witnesses.

But that's only if one ignores what the New Testament says about these types of incidents - and Jesus' statement effectively preventing the use of the death penalty.

Either way, the anti-witch killings are in contradiction of both the Hebrew Bible and New Testament.

Were the Salem Witch trials following the proper Biblical etiquette for trying and punishing witches?

eh - I'm just taking you up on your offer, and waiting for you to deliver. You did mean what you wrote - didn't you?:

event horizon wrote:The Bible is clear on how Christians should deal with witches.
...
they should read the Bible more accurately and completely rather than relying on one verse when others provide specific instructions for the ancient Israelites to put an accused witch through a trial to determine his or her guilt.
...
I agree that they are doing it in the name of Christianity..
..
I'm happy to point out that certain procedures are to be followed for the accused witch.

So, what are the African Christian Pastors doing wrong then? (Please give the exact Bible reference - you seem to be talking off the top of your head, again.)

You're the one that said that there are 'certain procedures' to witch trials - surely you're not just going to tell us that this means 'there must be witnesses'!! How do you know the African Pastors aren't following this requirement (that there must be witnesses)??

What would the US Christian Pastors do differently when trying witches according to the Bible?

What is the punishment for witches found guilty according to the Bible? Perhaps the US missionaries can give the Africans a refresher course in how to carry out the exorcisms and/or punishments of the witches they uncover?


Cheers,
Shafique

Were the Salem Witch trials following the proper Biblical etiquette for trying and punishing witches?

I don't know. But considering the Old Testament's standards for convicting someone of a crime are the same as the Koran's, I must imagine that the Iranian state is following proper protocol when convicting protesters for spreading mischief in the land and warring against God.

Don't you agree?

(Please give the exact Bible reference - you seem to be talking off the top of your head, again.)

To what?

The Salem witch trials?

You're the one that said that there are 'certain procedures' to witch trials

I can't help it if you believe that a trial and witnesses aren't procedural enough for you.

How do you know the African Pastors aren't following this requirement (that there must be witnesses)??

I don't think there are witnesses.

But if there are, remind me how this differs from Islamic law again?

What prevents two people from testifying that they saw some person steal valuable property?

What prevents two people from testifying that they saw a person performing witchcraft?

Surely you can do better than this.

What would the US Christian Pastors do differently when trying witches according to the Bible?

US Christians would exclude the witches (if it's found that they are witches) from their flock since that's the only recourse the Bible gives to Christians.

What is the punishment for witches found guilty according to the Bible?

In the Old Testament, it is the same as it is in Saudi Arabia.

In the New Testament, the death penalty is effectively nullified by Jesus - since he was against violence.

I'm simply asking you to back up your offer to tell us the 'certain procedures' for witch trials that US Christians would use - and where in the Bible these procedures come from. Where does the Bible say you should only exclude the guilty witches and not follow the Biblical punishment for guilty witches?

(I mean, where does the Bible say 'ignore what God told you before about punishing witches').

The point is that you stated that you would tell us these procedures in the thread about African Priests conducting witch trials (and exorcisms) - and were arguing they were 'doing it wrong'.

Thus far, you've not shown that the African Priests are NOT following Biblical procedures. It just appears that you are embarrassed that they are indeed following what is in the Bible.

Hence this thread - what is the 'correct' way to conduct a witch trial according to US Christians, and what is the Biblical reference for these procedures. Please show what the African Christian priests are doing wrong. (Is it just that they are carrying out Biblical punishments, whilst US Christians say these should be ignored?)

(We can then look back and see whether the Salem Witch trials in America followed the 'procedures' you said you'd show us. And we'll gloss over the fact that the Quran does not give any procedures for witch trials, or even any punishment for witches - but that's for a different thread. This thread is about you telling us the 'correct' Biblical procedure for witch trials.)

Cheers,
Shafique

Perhaps you should read the New Testament or ask Christians about their religion before you would go off and pontificate about what the Christian religion teaches or advocates?

At least you decided to start a thread even though this thread is not about gaining a better understanding of another religion but your grade school attempt where you think you'll use your 'logic' to eventually smear it.

But since you asked, the death penalty could be said to have been effectively abolished (at least for 'sinful' behavior) by Christians in John 4, John 9, and Corinthians.

The New Testament, however, recognizes the secular state's right to implement punishments for criminals - it is, however, debatable whether Christians can serve as executioners, guards, etc within the secular state just as Church Fathers were against Christians serving in the military - similar to JW's today and during Nazi Germany where they were specifically targeted for their pacifist beliefs.

The point is that you stated that you would tell us these procedures in the thread about African Priests conducting witch trials (and exorcisms) - and were arguing they were 'doing it wrong'.

They are doing it wrong. There is no trial for the accused and witnesses are not presented to testify that they witnessed an act of sorcery, etc.

Again, a literal interpretation of the Old Testament is no different from Islamic Law.

Hence this thread - what is the 'correct' way to conduct a witch trial according to US Christians

The New Testament is the only book that addresses Christ followers, so I think it would be more logical to conclude on what the New Testament says.

Please show what the African Christian priests are doing wrong. (Is it just that they are carrying out Biblical punishments, whilst US Christians say these should be ignored?)

Was the woman killed in Gaza for being a witch killed unfairly based on what Islamic Law says?

Why don't you apply your gee whiz questions to Islamic Law before oversimplifying what the Bible says?

And we'll gloss over the fact that the Quran does not give any procedures for witch trials, or even any punishment for witches

We'll gloss over the fact I mentioned that this is what Islamic Law says. (But we can go ahead and point out that honor killings are mentioned in the Koran)

Then any conclusion for why a vigilante killing someone he believes is a witch is against Islamic Law where witchcraft is punishable by death.

We don't even need to bring up Islamic Law. Capital punishment is carried out in several US states. Can someone just kill an accused criminal for an offense the criminal has not been tried or convicted for?

but that's for a different thread. This thread is about you telling us the 'correct' Biblical procedure for witch trials.)

It's in the Bible, to be sure. But I've already pointed out that a trial and witnesses is no different from what Islamic law requires.

Hold on, you're the one that offered to tell us what he proper etiquette for witch trials were.

I'm just asking what the Biblical references are and why you are denouncing your fellow Christians in Africa for carrying out witch trials and exorcisms.

It appears that their only crime is to actually follow the Biblical commandments regarding Witches, rather than your 'liberal' views that the Bible's commandments regarding punishment for witches should be ignored.

(And you're right - there's no need to bring up Islam - the Quran does not talk about witch trials at all)

Cheers,
Shafique

It appears that their only crime is to actually follow the Biblical commandments regarding Witches, rather than your 'liberal' views that the Bible's commandments regarding punishment for witches should be ignored.

Ah, the troll fully came out on this one.

That's actually not what I said when I pointed out there are no trials carried out or witnesses brought forward in the trials in regards to these killings and attacks against witches.

(And you're right - there's no need to bring up Islam - the Quran does not talk about witch trials at all)

And yet, the Koran does contain contradictory statements.

Unlike the Bible, the Koran contains so many contradictions scholars need to follow the advice of the Koran that some of its passages need to be ignored.

Gee, you couldn't be projecting the deficiencies of the Koran onto the Bible, now could you?

Where does the article say that the Christian Pastors who are exorcising the Witches aren't following the Biblical procedures that you are vaguely referring to?

I'm glad that we agree that the Quran doesn't contain any mention of Witch trials.

You only seem to be objecting to the fact that some of the Christian Pastors in Africa and their Christian flock still believe that the Biblical punishments for witches are still appropriate - whilst you seem to argue these should be ignored.

Their 'crime' therefore appears to be believing that the Bible should literally be followed. If, as you argue, the Bible contains no contradictions and clearly states that witches should be put to death - why are you arguing that this Biblical commandment should not be followed?

Isn't it arrogance on your part to think you know better than these Christian Priests?

Cheers,
Shafique

Now hold on.

One minute you're ready to tell Christians that they're following their religion wrongly, the next minute you're unaware the Old Testament has procedures before someone can be punished (which the Christians (Pagans and Muslims) in Africa are not following when they kill witches), now you're back to telling Christians of how they should properly follow their religion.

Boy, did I call that one.

The troll wasn't interested in learning about another religion but wants to smear it instead.

And project the failings of the Koran (its contradictions) onto Christianity.

I'm asking you what the African Priests are doing wrong according to the Bible - because you offered to tell us what the 'correct' way of conducting witch trials are.

Thus far the only thing you seem to be coming up with is that the African Christians are more true to the Bible than you - in that they are indeed carrying out the punishment in the Bible specified for witches.

You're the one that offered to tell us the correct procedure - and it transpires that it just means 'ignore the Biblical punishment because we US Christians are embarrassed about it'!

I'm not the one making the Biblical pronouncements - I'm relying on you to tell me what the Bible says and what the US Christians would do differently from the African Christian Pastors - and (crucially) why.


Cheers,
Shafique

Ah no, the correct procedure would be to follow, completely, what the Bible actually says.

So, what are the Christian Priests in Africa doing wrong then? They are carrying out exorcisms and some are also carrying out the Biblical punishment for witches.

Please be specific - otherwise it appears you're just embarrassed with what the Bible says should be done to Witches and that it appears that the African Christian Priests are indeed following the Bible.

Cheers,
Shafique

I already explained several times that trials aren't conducted and witnesses not presented.

You should really bother to read instead of troll.

You haven't shown that the Christian Priests in Africa aren't conducting trials with witnesses.

You appear to have been found out yet again - making claims that can't be backed up.

So - is it just that you're embarrassed by the fact that African Christians are following the Bible when it comes to dealing with 'witches'?

Cheers,
Shafique